Understanding Discipleship: A Journey, Not a Roadmap

Joshua Noel: 00:00:21

John: 13:33

I am giving you a new commandment that you love one another, just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another.

In this pericope of scripture, Jesus is speaking to his disciples, following Jesus's prediction that one of his followers would betray him. After the section of scripture, the one that I just read, Jesus is going to tell Peter that he's going to deny Christ three times.

So you know that whole story. So, like, right here, in between saying, someone's going to betray me, and then, hey, also you're going to deny me.

Looking at his best friends, Jesus made this statement about love. Pastor Matthew Thrift, why do you think Jesus took the time to tell his disciples to love one another after he leaves them?

Given the context of this verse?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:01:24

Yeah, absolutely. I think probably, unfortunately, the biggest reason is just because we're not good at it. I think he knows that.

I think the placement of this passage kind of even goes diving deeper into the idea of knowing full well the entirety of the human heart, knowing who's going to betray him, what's happening, and still saying, you know what? I see you, I love you, and I want you to pass that on to everyone as well. So I think it just shows that level of understanding of humanity as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Good stuff. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the whole Church podcast. Possibly your favorite church Unity podcast. Possibly not. That's fine, too.

We love all Church Unity podcasts that are actually church Unity podcasts and don't say things that we don't like. You know, I'm not sure I could say we love all Church Unity podcasts.

I haven't heard them all, but if you think you found one I didn't like, send it to me. I probably still like it. Probably.

But if you're looking for someone who doesn't struggle with his words as much because he actually invented the idea of language, the great T.J. tiberius Juan Blackwell is here with me today. I'm here to introduce him, basically. How's it going, tj? Good. Yeah. And we're here with a special guest.

Really excited for this one, Pastor Matt Walker Thrift. Not thrifty, as I had TJ say incorrectly on several outlines. But Pastor Matt Thrift is here with us. So glad to have you today, man.

And Josh Patterson, friend of the show, actually connected us, so it's good to see you.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:02:57

Yeah, definitely. Thank you. It's nice to see you guys. And Josh is a great guy, so I appreciate his connection towards both of us as well. That was helpful.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:07

Gotta love Jay Patty. And for those listening, Cooler Josh. Yeah, Cooler Josh. Pastor Matthew Thrift is the lead pastor of See if I say this right.

Corner Heights Church, and author of Genuine Discipleship in the Modern Age.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:03:23

Yeah, yeah, you got it. Close enough. I think it took me, like, two months of being here in Kansas before I got it right. Technically, it's Kerner.

It's sort of like that, like. Like that meme going around years ago, the Irma Gerd Kern, that type of thing.

Though I probably shouldn't give that description, but Kerner of Truth, here we are.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:03:41

Yeah. And if you want to be exposed to our own little Kerner of Truth, check out the Onazout podcast network website. The links below, check that out.

Rate our show. It's super helpful for us, and it's pretty quick and easy. You can give us a negative rating. Even I would like that more.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:01

I wouldn't. That hurts the algorithms looking for us. I'd rather you not do that, but it's fine, I guess.

One thing I would like us to do something I do at the beginning of every show as part of our little podcast liturgy, the Holy Sacrament of silliness. Because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be.

And TJ and I gonna take a crack at this first before we throw it over to you, Matt. Um. Oh, do you prefer Matt, Pastor Thrift? Does it matter?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:04:32

Oh, Matt's great. Matt's great.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:34

It just like. Like, J. Patty introduced us, and now everything's just immediately casual in my mind. Awesome.

Well, Pastor Thrift, today, silly question that we're gonna go for. If any inanimate object were to fall from the sky in place of snow or rain, like, you know, they're like, oh, it's raining cats and dogs.

Oh, that's not. That's not inanimate. But which object would you most hope for to be falling from the sky? I made TJ Go first last time. I will go first this time.

Trying to think of something that I would like, actually enjoy an animate object falling from the sky. I'm gonna go really stereotypical here. Hundred dollar bills. I want $100 bills to fall from the sky. Yeah, they probably won't hurt.

And I'll have more money. I mean, so will everybody else. But if it only rains specifically in Lancaster, I don't think it'll destroy the economy too much.

It'll just really turn the Carolinas upside down.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:05:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a hard question because Josh just destroyed the planet by covering it with paper.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:43

But only, Only specifically Lancaster's Alkalinas. It's fine.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:05:48

Yeah. So I was thinking like biodegradable Styrofoam. There's only. There's only one brand that is currently in the works.

They're producing, but biodegradable Styrofoam does exist.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:03

I like how I'm just being selfish. Like, everyone in Lancaster is going to be rich and I'm going to Disney world. And then TJ's like, how can I still save the planet here?

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:06:11

We all lose anyway.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:13

Yeah, yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:06:13

With no more water cycle, we're all going to die anyway.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:16

I just assumed this was like a one time event, not like a constant thing.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:06:19

Well, that, Bill, is a great answer.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:06:22

Yeah, it is. It is a solid one. Unless it's going everywhere.

And then, of course, I suppose it destabilizes our economy more than it already is, which would be a feat in and of itself.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:32

But anyone with the rain catchers are doing great.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:06:35

Oh, yeah, yeah. And there's probably a few in Lancaster. I actually, I grew up not too far from there, so in there many times.

But yeah, I thought about this question probably a lot more than I needed to. And so twofold. I've got two answers.

th, but it was originally the: 2007

I just think it should fall from the sky. But I've later settled on Chick Fil A sauce I think would be great. I think it'd be nice. Specifically in packets.

I don't want messy or whatever, but like. But I could use more, so I'll take it. Falling from the sky.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:07:25

It's true. It's true. I wish. Sometimes I wish Chick Fil a was a little bit more like Taco Bell.

One time I I doordash Taco Bell and I asked for six packets of Diablo sauce and they sent me about 40.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:07:36

Oh, yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:07:37

Instead.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:07:37

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:07:37

So, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:40

My. My bad opinion for this conversation is I. I don't like Taco Bell. Or Chick Fil A sauce. I don't like most sauces though, so.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:07:47

Oh, that's a. Mitch.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:48

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:07:50

So one thing that we like to do that isn't that is help share each other's story. We believe it engenders Christian unity to hear each other's stories.

So Matt, if you could briefly share with us your faith journey and maybe tell us about the faith community that you're in currently, that'd be great.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:08:06

Yeah, absolutely. So I, I grew up in Tawnytown, Maryland. Little tiny town of like 2,000 people.

Nobody really knows where it is except for Josh Patterson, who's also from that town. So he knows, but. Yeah, yeah, but grew up there. My family's always been in church. Always had a strong Christian upbringing, I guess, in that respect.

My dad actually was a youth pastor for a little while and so I grew up with what I like to describe as kind of like the most chaotic theological mutt upbringing that you could possibly have.

Like, yeah, I won't go too deep into it, but effectively, like we were at a church that was mainly Southern Baptist, but our pastor had been kicked out of the Assemblies of God Church and became Baptist. So we were kind of a mash there. My dad's a hardcore like 18 point Calvinist, if he could be. So he was in that, that group.

It was just a mess, but in all the good ways, I guess. So as I got older, yeah, as much as you can pull good out of some of those things.

As I got older, I kind of went through what I would say, although maybe not at the time, but now it definitely referred to as kind of my own deconstruction journey and ended up through a bunch of different conversations with people, Josh being one of them. Patterson as well as.

I got to meet Bruxy Cavey, who was actually on Josh Patterson show when I was helping him run that, producing that, and met Bruxy prior to the things that have come out since then, unfortunately. And super nice guy when I met him.

Can't speak to anything else, but during those conversations he tried to get me connected with a church in Pennsylvania, actually the Meeting House Church, and it kind of fell through last minute, but it got me interested in Mennonite, Mennonite Brethren Traditional and ended up out at a Mennonite Brethren Church in Utah.

So I actually served out there as a youth pastor and a pastor of adult ministry for the last six years until moving here about 10 months ago to Newton, Kansas, where I am the lead pastor at a Mennonite Brethren church. So not so Much. I get the faith journey side of things.

Had a lot more to do with, like, a Southern Baptist summer camp, which that has its own interesting story there. As we can imagine, my actual ministry, journey, family, all of that kind of just came through.

Trying to find a church community that I thought valued scripture above most else, instead of just being kind of the political pundit that many of the churches I've been around tend to be. And I've found a home in the Mennonite Brethren, so I really enjoy that. It's a pretty great place. Nice.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:00

Nice. Cool. I think it's possible he's the first Mennonite we've had on the show.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:11:05

Yeah, that's usually the case.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:08

If there was, there'd only be one other. There was a lady we had on. I try to remember if she was Mennonite or. I can't remember. She might have been.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:11:16

And Mennonite Brethren's kind of its own.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:18

Been a long time.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:11:19

It's kind of its own. We're very similar to Mennonites, especially if you were like, anywhere outside of Kansas, pretty much exactly the same.

But Mennonite Brethren's a little more typically referred to as conservative, but not in the way that that word means things today, kind of in a more classical sense of that. So we're just a little bit more evangelistic, I would say, than the average Mennonite. Mennonite church.

Kansas, I didn't know until moving here, is like the home of the Mennonite churches of the US And Mennonite Brethren. So we're right down the street here in Newton from both.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:58

Nice. Well, we're here to talk about your book on discipleship.

And you mentioned in the intro to your book that there are plenty of other books on discipleship. Like, there's a ton.

And you think the reason for your book is to kind of illuminate how discipleship isn't something we could roadmap and give instructions to, but it's rather like a journey that we all take. We're all disciples or to someone or of something.

Could you kind of unpack for us a little bit some of the difference in discussing discipleship as a journey compared to the other things that happen.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:12:31

Oh, you're all good. No, yeah, definitely. I can give that a shot.

I think the biggest thing to me is I had worked in a pretty small church, relatively small church in Maryland, and seen that there. I saw that. I thought we weren't super great at discipleship. I think most churches kind of struggle with that. How do we actually Reach people.

And to define that a little bit further, just kind of like, how do we actually make followers of Jesus who actually follow Jesus? I think that's the question we should all be asking in church and in a small church.

I think we thought we were struggling because we didn't have enough staff or we didn't have enough resources or whatever else. And then I moved across the country, ended up in a much larger church, and it was great. I love that church community. But we were still struggling.

All our staff meetings were like, how do we get discipleship? And then it was like, well, we need like 50 staff people and we can't do that. So it's still staff, it's still resources, it's still programs.

And I kind of, kind of came to the conclusion through. I mean, it's not like it's something that no one else has ever thought of, but through conversation with others.

Like discipleship in a biblical sense wasn't super programmatic. It wasn't like you had to go to a certain class on a certain night of the week at your church. And yes, society has changed things, sure.

But as a general rule, it was just lived out faith. It was just following in the footsteps of Jesus in the mundane as well as the big moments of life.

And so the thing that I've kind of noticed and what the distinction I wanted to make in the book was a lot of churches that I've been around or I've heard messages or the books that I've read kind of make it seem like discipleship is like this ladder that you can climb. Like you're on the bottom rung and then you go serve in children's ministry and you've stepped up a rung, you're a better disciple now.

And then you gave of your money, you gave of your resources, whatever else, and you kind of like keep trying to climb this ladder and it becomes very like works based theology very quickly. And I had a problem with that because I was like, hey guys, I don't see Jesus doing this. Like, it's not what's going on.

So what I mean when I say, to answer that, what I mean when I say discipleship is a journey instead of a roadmap is more like, you know, as a disciple of Jesus, we all have failings. We all do the wrong thing sometimes. And I don't think God's knocking us back down a rung of that ladder.

I think he's up there like, okay, let's do the next right thing. Let's keep following what the path that's been laid out for you has been. So it's not so much as a 2 +2 equals 4.

Check off the things on a checklist as much as it is just live and enjoy getting to know Jesus and sharing that.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:16

Yeah. Shockingly to everyone, it makes me think of something C.S. lewis said. Yeah. No one ever expects me to say that.

I remember one time and I'm trying to think if this was the Four Loves or another book. And I feel like I'm thinking it's the Four Loves just because I say that so often and it's not actually in there.

For now, we're going to say it's the four Loves and if I'm wrong, someone will call me on it later. But he talks about how getting to God, like there's a difference between proximity and nearness.

And he's like, a lot of times we're just trying to go to that straight line and you might look like you're imitating God really, really well, but it's like if you're on the edge of a cliff and at the bottom is the city, you're technically closer to the city than the guy who's actually on the path to the city. But you can never get to it that way. And I think that's kind of some of the difference here is like, it's not a. Here's the steps for everybody.

Some people's journeys might take them ways that don't look anything like what you think Christianity looks like, but everyone has their own journey, you know. Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:16:16

Yeah. So there's one thing that we like to do, and we're gonna do it before we get to the meat of your book.

And to help our audience and ourselves get to know you better, we're gonna do our speed round segment and ask you a series of questions about what you believe and ask that you try to answer in a single sentence or you can skip the question outright. We are not allowed to ask you any follow up questions. Are you ready?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:16:39

Absolutely. Yep, I got you.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:16:42

All right. Who or what is God?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:16:46

Oh, man, getting right into it. Skip. No, I'm just joking. Who or what is God? My answer would be, I believe God is Jesus, the Trinity.

I'm a orthodox trinitarian, I suppose, in that respect, maybe not in every single way, but in that respect for certain. So Jesus is my answer.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:17:05

All right. What is salvation?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:17:07

Salvation.

I personally fall into penal substitutionary atonement camp, although I know that's not always the most comfortable for people, and I understand that. I'M welcoming other conversation, but I would say salvation comes through the work of Christ given freely for us would be my answer.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:17:27

What is the significance of baptism and the Eucharist?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:17:31

I think both of them beautiful aspects of what it means to follow Christ when it comes to baptism. I personally look at it as a reflection of what God has done for us.

Kind of walking through that in a more symbolic sense when it comes to Eucharist or Communion kind of in a symbolic sense as well. I'm not Baptist, doesn't need to be done, not Catholic. So in between there more on the symbolic side for both.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:17:59

Right. What authority does scripture have?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:18:03

I love the way that Chris Dye over at Imago DEI put out a graphic a couple weeks ago that kind of balances the authority of scripture. He says we need both scripture as one piece of authority as well as church in the modern life, the global church today.

And so I think Scripture has the authority of being the Word of God, infallible Scripture while also being something that we can actively understand better through the global church.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:18:33

What authority does tradition have?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:18:36

Pretty much not the same as scripture, but again, a piece that needs to be balanced through that relationship, I would say.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:18:44

Do you believe in a continuation of the gifts of the Spirit?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:18:48

I do. Yep.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:18:50

Would you say the initial evidence of that is speaking in tongues?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:18:54

No, I would not.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:18:56

Can God change?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:18:58

Can God change? I love Thomas J ord's thoughts on this, but I will say I'm currently in the no camp but always interested in conversation.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:10

What do you love about the Bible?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:19:13

Can I say everything? I don't know if that's a true answer, but yeah, just truthfully, my biggest thing is the grace that's given to us, though we don't deserve it.

I guess if I had to boil it down to one thing.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:25

All right. What do you love about the church?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:19:28

I love that no matter how difficult church can be, and trust me, I've seen some pretty awful parts of being in a church community that no matter how awful it can be that God still chooses to use his church in a way that glorifies him and draws others towards him him on a daily basis.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:46

All right, and which if any of the seven sacraments do you follow?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:19:50

I would say without I. I'd have to look at the list of all of them. Right off the top. Yeah, yeah, go for it.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:58

Baptism, Eucharist, confirmation, penance, anointing of the sick, marriage and holy orders.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:20:04

All of them with a little bit of non denominational twist on them. That's my answer.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:20:10

Yeah. Yeah. Fair how it is a lot in a lot of churches. It's like we sort of do that, but, like.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:20:16

Yeah, yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:20:17

Not much. We don't get into it like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:20

Yeah. All right. Good stuff. I love this beat round. And we're gonna do, like, 12 weeks with. Without it.

But I might still use that music for something else we're gonna do in that series. We'll see. But we're not here to talk shop. We're here to talk about your book. So one thing. So we're talking about discipleship.

Something I found just personally as I'm talking to other people in the church and stuff, is a lot of people who haven't attended Semin, you know, stuff like that. They hear words like leadership and discipleship being used in the church, and they're not really sure exactly what it means.

And I don't think many people could tell you the difference between leadership and discipleship, you know? So I guess my question is kind of like, on basic terms, how would you define those? And how would you differentiate leadership from discipleship?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:21:02

Yeah, absolutely. I think a misunderstanding of what discipleship is is one of the biggest. I don't want to say the biggest problem in the church. There's plenty.

But, like, one of the biggest things that we need to learn, because I would define discipleship as a disciple in particular, as I put in the book, is someone who follows the particular teachings or thought of a particular organization or person, some entity of sorts.

And I think one of the difficulties of that in the way that we've combined leadership and discipleship, they're both like these somewhat churchy words that mean effectively to a lot of people. They feel like they mean being a different level of Christian. And that's what I was trying to combat with.

The book is like, hey, like, leadership is different because leadership, while it is something we're all called to be part of, leadership requires leading, being out front. And discipleship plays really well with it because discipleship is quite literally the act of following in Jesus's footsteps.

So, like, I think you can't be a very good leader if you're not also doing discipleship. There's plenty of churches that have proved that point. Cough, cough, Mars Hill.

But there's also, like, this reality that they are two different things. While they played together in the same camp, they're two different things. And discipleship.

One of the biggest things that I took out of this writing process was just the reality that we're all disciples of something somewhere. I see a lot of people nowadays who are disciples of whatever news channel they like to watch.

You hear everything they say, and it sounds exactly like Fox News or cnn. And it's exactly the same. It's like, where are you being fed in your mind and in your thought is going to be what comes out. I love CS Lewis, too.

So a lot of things that jog in my memory, I'm like, oh, it's a C.S. lewis quote. Because though I hope to not be as big a disciple of C.S. lewis as I am of Jesus, I follow his teachings. I try to read those things.

That's what I'm fueling myself with. So I think they play in congruency, but they are two very different pieces of the Christian life.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:16

Yeah, it's fascinating how often you'll hear someone talk and then, like, later read something or see something.

You're like, oh, that's why they talk like this, you know, Like, I actually know a pastor who, you know, had good sermons that I disagreed with a lot. And then I started listening to Al Mohler because I like listening to stuff I disagree with. And I was like, yeah, he's just, like, quoting this.

Like, that's all the sermon is. And I'm like, yep. Oh, and, you know, that's. That's it. Like, he is a disciple, even though they're not meeting in person necessarily.

And then, like, there's a lot of people in, like, the theology beer camp circles that I'll meet, and I'm like, man, they're so smart.

And then, like, I pick up a book of, like, Paul Tillich or Levinas, and I'm like, these people are still really smart, but they're just, like, the reason they're using these big words are because Levinas or whoever wrote an entire book about that big word. So, like, absolutely. That's exactly what you're talking about.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:24:07

The amazing amount of early: 2000

Joshua Noel: 00:24:27

I mean, ironically, I was wearing the same shirts around that time, but that's because I was a child who lived in Florida.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:24:32

Yeah, that's different. That's different. You get a pass.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:24:34

That's part of his culture. So throughout your book, you discuss a few practices that we can do as a part of our discipleship journey.

You talk about prayer, Bible study, worship, evangelism, Sabbath, and fasting. So could you Unpack for us why you chose the disciplines that you did to include in the book.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:24:53

Yeah, for sure. I think some of them, in particular, stuff like reading scripture, prayer, those are ones that, like, every Christian.

And ultimately I would love for the book to be read by whoever wants to read it, whether you would consider yourself a Christian or not.

But being in the church circles that I'm in, I figure a lot of people would be kind of reading it and using it as more like a discipleship material or an encouragement on their personal journey, whatever that looks like for them. And I think those two are ones like, every Christian or person who's been raised in church has heard about reading scripture.

They've all heard, go home and read your Bible and you'll somehow magically become a better Christian. I don't know if I'm the only one who did the whole, like.

And I know I'm not, but one of the only ones who would do the whole, like, oh, I'm going through something difficult, and then I gotta grab my Bible and pray and just ask God to give me the exact verse I need. Hopefully I open it to the right side.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:50

I did that so often in high school.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:25:51

Oh, my gosh. And it's always in psalms because it's in the middle of the Bible. So you're like, wait, bashing my enemies, babies against the rocks?

Like, what the heck does this have to do. I was just asking about my girlfriend.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:00

I was like, ironically, so many of mine were up about, like, girls that, like, you know, songs and, like, some of the ones in the middle happen to kind of be relevant a lot of the time.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:26:07

That's fair.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:08

That's fair to get me in a lot of trouble.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:26:12

Oh, I can imagine. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:14

TJ always opens the lamentation for some reason.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:17

It was rough.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:26:19

Exactly. But.

s, early: 2000

I love it on this side of things because I'm a nerd now. But then I didn't quite get it.

And the reality is, I think it was important to talk about Scripture Reading because so many people have heard about it, but they've been given so many weird ideas about, like, just read your Bible so you become a better Christian instead of saying, like, read your Bible so you understand the heart of God better. Like, sit in the uncomfortability of the questions that sometimes the Bible is going to leave you with and be okay with that and continue reading.

Like, just seek in the midst of that challenge. And then prayer. Similar sense, like, not every time you pray is something amazing going to come to you, but.

But I feel like I was taught that a lot of times, and I wanted to break down some of those.

And then the last ones that I was gonna say, like, fasting, kind of in that realm of that side of things, I think there is nothing that is more important, but also countercultural. That the church used to do a lot of that now is really weird.

If you have a co worker who's a Christian and they're like, I'm fasting, there's a good shot. Even if you grew up in church, you're like, what the heck is that? Like, what are you talking about?

So I wanted to kind of give some insight into, hey, here's how these things work, just as a basic overview. And like, also, they are part of this journey. They're just not like a ladder to climb.

It's not like, oh, I fasted this week, so I'm a better Christian. It's like part of getting to know the heart of God through that.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am. Yeah.

I think one of the fascinating things, and we're probably all on a little bit different page with some of this stuff, but we're making good times. I'm just going to sit here for a second.

For me, I think the way I got past some of what those things used to be and now I can actually use them as my spiritual journey, is how they've changed meaning for me. And even the fact that I stopped doing them for a while, I think helped me. The only one, I never stopped. I've never stopped reading scripture.

I'm just weird. Even when I was like, I don't think I believe this thing. I'm not sure if I do.

I still was like, man, this is just still such a good book, though, you know, like, but for.

For me, somehow letting go of inerrancy and letting go of this idea that, like, the Bible's all true all the time and completely authoritative has let me, like, get more out of it in a weird way, because I used to, like, I'd get hooked up on like, those genealogies, like you said. I'm like, I have to sit here and study until I find a meaning out of this. And now I'm like, yep, all right, I'm on to the next thing. And.

And then like, when something hits me, I can pause and let it kind of just speak for itself instead of having to force it to have a meaning for me that day, you know, and even stuff like prayer and all that. Like when I let go of it and stop doing it for a while, I then returned.

Not because I think this is a good checklist, something transactional I can do, but rather, actually I think my spirituality is something important. And maybe this is something that can be transformative if I let it be.

I think changing that mindset from, like, transactionalism to transformationalism really helped me be able to do those things in a meaningful way and not a checklist kind of way.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:29:54

When I think a lot, I love that because I think a lot of it.

I listened to your guys episode a couple weeks back with Ord where you're talking about mysticism or kind of like, maybe not mysticism, but is the word mystery helpful? I thought it was a great conversation. Very helpful.

And part of that, that I won't push back on Ord because he has too many letters after his name and he can come after me. I'm not doing. But he's great. He won't. But I would say I enjoy the mystery of things because it does allow you.

I grew up in such a formulaic way of thinking about the Bible that, yeah, you can easily get caught up on those, like, oh, wow, I need to stop while I'm reading the genealogy of Jesus and go research eight different commentaries to confirm that this person actually historically is related to this person, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So easily caught up in friction of the extra biblical pieces that it's like, well, you know, if I can sit in the tension of, like, I don't need to know everything, then I'm probably going to be able to get more formation out of reading this in the first place. So, yeah, I think that's a huge, huge piece of things.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:09

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm going to do a little bit of both anding here.

I think the more progressive side of things, I see them do something similar, but it's not like, oh, I have to get meaning out of this genealogy.

It's more of a we have to prove this philosophical idea in, like, if we'll just keep picking on Tom ord because I know he loves us anyways, and he'll be okay with it. You know, one of my things with Tom's stuff, as much as I do, like, a lot of it is he feels so strongly the need to define God. You know what I mean?

And I agree with him in a sense that we have to have some parameters for what we think God is, or else everything else we're talking about is just nonsense. Like. Like, I get where he's coming from.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:31:46

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:47

But I feel like sometimes we spend so much time focusing on our philosophy, improving this idea that we lose the fact that there is something spiritual and meaningful that we can experience. So I. I think that danger exists on both sides. And that's where I pulled the Christian Daoist card again.

And I'm like, yeah, well, there's this thing Lao Tzu says about don't respect the clever. And this is exactly what he's talking about.

Like, when you get so much in your head and you think that these intellectuals have it and all the rest of us don't, honestly, a lot of times the intellectuals are so focused. And I don't think Tom Ward's guilty of this because he's out in nature all the time. And I know Tom Ward, and I know his heart.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:32:21

Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:22

But, you know, some intellectuals get so much into it, you know, don't respect the clever. What ends up happening is they lose the experience, they lose all the stuff that we're building these ideas around.

So much so that it's like, do the ideas even matter at that point? I don't know.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:32:37

It's always something that I think. It's funny because I'm trying not to sound like the fundamentalist Christian guy, because I promise I'm not. You can be if you want. I'm not. Trust me.

But coming back to Scripture, I always think about the idea of, like, okay, what was the original sin? The original thing that we committed as humanity? Obviously, yes, you could call it pride, Disobeying God, all of these things are true.

But also, like, we're thirsting for the knowledge of good and evil, which I've always found so interesting because I love knowledge. Like, I want to read the side I agree with, the side I don't. I want to hear the weird theological arguments.

But at the same time, I'm like, man, there are some things that I have to just admit. I probably don't need to know those things. Like, thinking about our world.

I have news from everywhere right now, and I feel like I'm probably More stressed out because I can read the headlines of every country across the face of the planet. And I didn't used to have that. Like, we didn't. We didn't have to. I'm not saying it's all bad. Don't hear me that way.

But like, yeah, I love knowledge, but, yeah, I do. But at the same time, this need for constant. More. More always to affirm my own intellect. I find myself in a spot where I'm like, ah, maybe.

Maybe I should. I don't need to be the guy who announces his social media because we've all been there before. But like, like, I.

Maybe I should take a break or like, think about these things because truthfully, I don't need to know everything that's going on in the world. And often when we get into that spot, we look for the clever. And as you said, I think that there's good for sure. And there's also some.

Some danger in trying to find a. I guess more or less trying to find a fundamentalist, progressive view. Like, I know that sounds like a weird way to put.

But building blocks that make sense. Yeah, it can be tough now.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:34:40

So that's why I don't like a news website. The. The way the news used to be was perfect. It was curated by the news station just for you. It's what you need to care about.

And yes, you are going to be manipulated.

Now, if I go on a website, I'm going to look at what I need to look at, and 40 minutes later, I'm going to be worried about harvest season in Sri Lanka.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:03

Okay, two quick recommendations then for the things. One, the song Slow down that we talked about for listeners last week for TJ&I a couple hours ago on the podcast. I think you should check that out.

Check out that podcast episode we did. It was good with Kate Blewitt. And then the other recommendation, I'm trying to remember exactly what it's called.

It's not like, I think it might be poor someone stall. I'm gonna look this up. It's like, yeah, pour over.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:35:32

Pour over.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:33

It's like a podcast. Yes. Yeah, it's like a really quick news thing from Christian perspective.

It's more conservative, but they give scripture, they say, here's what's happening, here's a scripture. And then they do it very lighthearted. And it's just kind of in a way where they're not telling you what to think.

You can get just the basics you need to know, and it's given to you in a very unstressful way. And I feel like some people just need that. That's all you need.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:35:59

Yeah, I actually.

So I use Ground News now if I'm going to look at news online because we live in a very polarized world and we're not sponsored, so I'm not going to say anything else. Ground News is cool though, and a really helpful tool for parsing information these days.

So, Matt, in your book, which is the topic of this episode, as we seem to have forgotten in the past 4ish minutes, you include reflective questions on each subject in your chapters. It's kind of like reading a devotional. Here's what you do.

Here's ask yourself this, but what role do you imagine those questions taking in the lives of us reading it?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:36:37

Yeah, absolutely. My hope for it, one of the original thoughts I had behind it was to have churches use it as a resource, as something that they could hand out to new.

I've heard a lot of churches using it to hand out to new believers. That's been one thing that's been happening, and that's great. I think it's suited for that.

But also, even to just a discipleship class, I'm not always. And I'm actually working on a book on men's ministry.

And that sounds very funny because I historically have hated men's ministry, but that's a different story for a different day. But kind of the purpose behind it was just, hey, dig into this with someone else.

Because when it comes to discipleship, one of the, one of the focuses, one of the chapters really kind of, I guess more as a subtext, but still really focused on, hey, you can't do this alone. Like, community is one of the biggest things that churches can still offer in all respects.

Like, I remember going through multiple times in my life, whether it was when I was on staff at a church or not on staff at a church, where I was just like, God, why on earth is the church the way it is? Like, I can't get along with people or whatever else. I don't know, just the various things that happen as you're in a community for a while.

But the beauty of always having people that you get together with.

Like, I know there's like theology, beer camp, like you guys are talking about is a great example of a thing that I think would be weird to say it's church, but at the same time like it is. It's people getting together and seeking God together like that. That's quite literally the definition, just community. Getting to know Jesus.

So my Hope for it is people can sit in a coffee shop together and go through the book with somebody.

Not in the classic evangelical, like, find someone who's older and wiser than you and go through the book, but truthfully, find people who inspire you to follow God and answer the questions with them. So you can fill it out yourself and hopefully get something out of that. But I really hope people use it in community together. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:50

Yeah, it's good stuff. Another thing that you bring out near the end of your book, you discuss the great cost and some of the great joys of discipleship.

In a way, you're kind of a terrible salesman, right? Like, you build this thing up and instead of being like, here's all the benefits.

If you do all these things, you're like, hey, there's great joy, but also there's some big costs here. Why bring up both the costs and the joys like that at the end there?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:39:15

Because I've read too many books on discipleship that make it sound like it's all good. That's my honest answer.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:22

Yeah, fair enough.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:39:24

Yeah.

I think the truth is, it is absolutely, as someone who would consider myself a Christian, absolutely worth it, while also being painful at times to follow Jesus. It would be insane to read the Bible. It blows my mind that people read the Bible and then they're like, life should just be easy all the time.

I'm like, did you read about that Jesus guy? Like, he didn't have an easy time all the time. Like, there's go through the Old Testament. There's plenty of bad things happening.

It's just the reality. So, like, I. I don't know why in Western Christianity in particular, but. But in a lot of places as well.

Like why we've adopted this idea in so many circles that everything's going to be good. If you follow Jesus, it is. Ultimately, it's all counted as good. It's what Paul says, but at the same time, some of it's really hard.

You can have a difficult time. Yeah, exactly. Yes.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:40:23

Nobody reads Job anymore. We lost our way.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:26

Oh, man. I think they just skip the Old Testament. Honestly.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:40:30

That is often true. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:32

As someone who I enjoy reading the Bible, so I read it a lot, like multiple times a year.

And sometimes I think about not doing that just because it just makes me so mad when I get online and see what people say in the Bible says, and I'm like, dude, you just clearly have not read it.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:40:48

No, they read that exact passage is what they did. Yeah, I've seen that many times.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:53

It's very similar to how many Lord of the Rings fans are like, yeah, I've read the Silmarillion. And then start saying stuff like, it's in the Silmarillion.

And I'm like, dude, you just did what every Christian does when they, they want to make something up and say it's in Leviticus. Like, like, nah, I read that. It's not there.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:41:06

Dude, I love. And this is a weird one. It's not as, it's not as, as geeky. I know you guys like, like Lord of the Rings and all that. I do too.

But I am not as far into that as far.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:19

It's not for everyone.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:41:20

Well, I, I enjoy it. I just don't have time anymore.

But with that being said, last night my wife and I were watching Talladega Nights, which is definitely probably not the show or the movie. I'm sorry that I should say as a pastor, but it's just true. And we were watching it and enjoying it. But there's the scene that I told my wife.

I was like, man, if I could cut this and use it in a sermon, I would love to.

Because you've got this scene where they're sitting around the table and they're praying and everybody loves to say their Jesus that they're praying to.

And for the listeners, I'm sure probably many of you have seen the movie and know what I'm talking about, but you've got like nine pound, eight ounce baby Jesus. Then one dude's like, oh, my Jesus. Oh, it's so good. My Jesus has got eagle wings. And I'm sitting there just dying, laughing.

But at the same time, I'm like, this is what we do as Christians so often is like, well, I know your Jesus loved people and was a pacifist, or that's a debatable term, but I don't mind saying it, like, whatever it happens to be. But my Jesus, my Jesus was like strong warrior Jesus with eagle wings. I like baby Jesus. I like teenage Jesus.

We all pick our proverbial version of Jesus. And I think that's part of what I was trying to, like, combat with having a conversation. Like, hey, there is good and bad.

There are things I read that I'm like, man, if I'm totally honest, I wish Jesus hadn't said that because it makes me uncomfortable.

And then there's a lot of things where I'm like, shoot, I wish people actually read this because they should know that, like, it's, it's there, it's, it's Who Jesus is.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:43:02

It's like the opposite of the. The worst guy, you know, just made a great point. The best guy has ever lived. Made an awful point.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:43:11

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, it's true.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:14

Yeah. No, like, college football geekery. One of my favorite things is there was a point. So, Florida State, Florida Gators. If you.

If you know about the rivalry, you know, if you don't, sorry, this is meaningless. But, like, Steve Spurrier were talking about how, like, him and Bobby Bowden both, like, would go to the same beach house and hang out.

And he's like, yeah, we're both Christians. I'm just an Old Testament Christian, and Bobby Bowden's a New Testament Christian. And I'm like, yeah, that's why the Gators suck.

There's no such thing as an Old Testament Christian.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:43:42

Chill.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:43:43

That's Judaism.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:45

Yeah.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:43:46

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:47

Actually, not even that, because it's like, it's Judaism without the good. Like, the love part.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:43:52

Just.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:53

He's like, Just the judgment and the wrath. That's all I need.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:43:57

Yeah. American Old Testament tradition right there.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:44:02

So is there anything else that we might have missed that you think our listeners could benefit from thinking about concerning your writing or just general discipleship?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:44:11

Yeah, I don't know if it's stuff you guys missed, but a couple of things that I kind of wanted to say was just really, I understand, and I don't know what exactly. Every part of your podcast audience, like, where people are coming from with their faith journey. I'm sure lots of people in different places.

And my hope for this and my heart for this is, like, when I was writing the book, I almost wanted to hesitate to use phrases like discipleship because they're so churchy.

As we covered at the beginning of the episode, they can often, A, lose their meaning, but, B, there are points in my life where I would have heard discipleship and been like, ew, I don't want to read that book. Like, it's going to be another Lifeway author trying to. No hate on Lifeway, but maybe a little bit.

Like, it's just another person trying to sell a book that I need to buy to improve my life. And my hope for it is truthfully, like, I want to kind of take back some of these words that have been.

I don't want to say corrupted because it's such a harsh term, but, like, have made. Have been made to mean potentially other things by Christian culture and say, look like discipleship is simply following something.

I'm a cautious disciple of Apple products because I've got, like, the iPhone and the Apple computer and everything else. And if they come out with a new one, I'll probably want to buy it. Like, that's what happens.

But, like, as Christians or people who are spiritually interested, like, entering into discipleship is something we're all doing. So I think the book. My kind of. My sales pitch to it, as much as it's.

As much as I'm not good at that, my sales pitch to it is like, hey, this is what you're already doing. And my hope is just to give you something to understand that. I think following Jesus is the best decision I've ever made.

It's not all happy rainbows and puppies. There are difficult days, but at the same time, it's worth it.

And I hope people can see that past just the Christian rhetoric of the words that sometimes get overused. So that's kind of the heart behind it.

Like I said, I'm working on a book on men's ministry, and that's very much so in the same vein where I'm like, man, and who's gonna pick up a book on men's ministry that's not, like, get together and go fishing and blow stuff up? Like, nobody wants that. So I don't know why I'm writing it, but I think it's helpful. I really do.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:45

Well, I'd have you back to whenever it's done, though, so we can.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:46:47

We can.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:48

Top of that one.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:46:48

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:49

That does sound interesting.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:46:50

It is, yeah. Men's ministry, man, I've walked into way too many of those groups, and I'm like, well, hey, we. We both have tattoos.

Like, that might be the one thing we can talk about, but I still.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:00

Want to blow something up.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:01

Up.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:01

But.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:02

And sure, blowing stuff up can be fun, but. But also, like, I don't need to. Don't need to watch Monster Chucks in a. In an event space for that. I don't know. I want to talk about Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:13

I'll just play a video game if I need explosions. Come on.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:47:16

Monster Jam Church is awesome. What are we talking about?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:18

Church.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:21

What is this show?

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:47:23

It's not Monster Jam Church.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:27

I trademark Announcing a story.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:29

Oh, man.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:30

I was gonna say announcing to new podcasts for the. For the network, but I guess not.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:32

Oh, sorry, sorry.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:47:35

Oh, it'll be quicker than that. So where should our listeners go to follow you and to get your book? Follow. Genuine discipleship in the modern age.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:47:45

Yeah. So to follow me, I'm on. On Instagram is probably the best place. Facebook, Instagram. All the Places you can look for.

Just look for Matt Walker, Thrift and you will likely find me on Instagram. My handle is asterthrifty. Probably why Thrifty was on your guys minds earlier. So I've got that one on there. And then to get the book.

Unless you find yourself in Kansas, in which place, if you're in the Wichita area, you can probably find it in most bookstores. But if you're outside of that immediate area, Amazon is the easiest place to find most books, for better or for worse. So you can find it on there.

Definitely give it, give it a read if you're interested. I'd appreciate it.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:48:30

I don't know. I do. I'm torn. Like sometimes it does. I feel good ordering a book from Amazon because that's what it originally was.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:48:38

Oh yeah, yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:48:39

And then I'm like, but it's Amazon.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:48:42

It makes me want to believe that there's a guy in his garage pulling the book off the bookshelf and putting it into my Amazon package. But truthfully, I know that's not what's happening. Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:48:53

Lost our way.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:48:56

It is sad but true.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:57

Yeah. Well, one other thing we do in every episode of our show is we like to just ask for practical actions, you know, something tangible people could do.

So if someone's listening right now, what's a single action that they could stop right now and do that would help better engender church unity?

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:49:17

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is talking. I'm sure it's been an answer before, but talking to people with different viewpoints than you have.

It's unfortunately not the commonplace in a lot of circles anymore. But I think it's still something very needed to say, like, hey, this person's got.

They go to the Methodist church down the street and I go to the Southern Baptist Church or I go to the Methodist church, they go to Southern Baptist. Have a conversation. Have a conversation with people. You know, don't go to church. Get to know what they believe.

I think that's just a huge tool that, that we forget exists in helping all of our walks in life.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:49:57

Yeah. So what, what changes? What changes in each of us and in our churches, in the world around us if we all start talking to people who are different.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:50:05

Yeah, everything in a good way. Yeah, everything. Yes. Yes.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:50:11

So the last thing we do before we really wrap it up is our God moment. We pick a moment from recently in our lives where we saw God. Whether it's a moment of a worship, a blessing, a challenge, whatever it may be.

I Always make Josh go first because he's Josh. So do you have a God moment for us this week, Josh?

Joshua Noel: 00:50:29

Yeah, I'm moving. It's stressful. I'm praying a lot. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:50:37

Yeah. For me, I've got a.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:50:39

It's.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:50:40

I don't know. It's weird. I'm in a weird spot in life. I'm 25. Lots of things are happening to everyone. I know. It's just. It's weird to think about.

It's weird just comparing myself to, you know, my sisters, what other people I know were doing when they were 25. Like, I'm in a pretty good spot. I'm comfortable, and I don't know if I need to be comfortable, so it's challenging, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:51:06

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:51:07

So my roommate's turning 26 tomorrow, which is not much older than me, but it's. You know, we're still young enough for that to be funny.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:15

Yeah. But 25, that's not like a good. Like, if you could just lock in your age at 25, like your body's age, and let your mind grow, I feel like that'd be.

That'd be sweet.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:51:25

Oh, personally, I'm gonna lock in my body's age, like, right before I broke my leg in half.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:51:30

Genius. Yeah, that's probably fair.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:35

I mean, I would do that, too, but I. I think I was around 25 when that happened, so.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:51:39

Oh, no, that's not fair.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:51:43

I can tell you. I'm. I'm 27 and I've got three kids, and I've been married for nine years, so it's like a different. I kind of come at it from the.

The other weird side of things where, especially when I moved to Utah, people were always like, oh, you fit in now, like, with all the Mormons. And I was like, whoa, what? Like, we can get married. I don't know. But anyway, yeah, like, we're. We're in a different spot.

And all I could ever say is, it's real easy to compare to anybody at any stage of life, and it's almost never helpful, is all there is to it. I don't know if that's any encouragement.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:52:20

But comparison is the thief of joy.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:52:22

It sure is. It really is.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:52:24

Take that thought and get it out of here.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:52:26

Amen. Amen. I've got. Am I supposed to share one, too? I've got one. Do you have a God moment? Yeah. Yeah, I do. So we've got.

I guess probably the main one is kind of my son. My youngest son is three Years old and we just had him go in and found out he's got a mass growing in his ear.

And we were kind of terrified about that. He wasn't hearing well, but we figured he's three years old and three year olds never listen. So we were like, ah, he's our youngest.

So like, we're like, ah, we've been through this. Kids just. Just don't listen. That's what he's doing. No, he just can't hear out of his left ear very well. So we've gotten that all figured out.

We've got a surgery scheduled and stuff. But kind of the God moment.

The good part of it has been we found it, like, moved to Kansas and switched insurance just at the right time to be able to catch it before it causes, like, it might cause irreparable hearing damage, but it could cause, like, facial paralysis and balance issues for the rest of his life if we hadn't caught it yet. But so really, in a cool way, I mean, there's lots of things we're unsure of in the future, like, how are we going to deal with that and help him?

But in a blessing sense and in a really good God thing, we're like, man, it's amazing we moved here at the right time because in Utah, we probably never would have caught it and wouldn't have been able to afford to help anyway. So it's cool. Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:53:50

And definitely, like back in the day would have just ignored that. My parents.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:53:55

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:53:56

And everyone.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:53:57

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:53:58

I probably would have found out recently.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:54:00

Yep. You'd be like, whoa, how come my face is paralyzed? What's going on?

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:54:04

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I'm responsible.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:07

But be like, you know, dj, your face looks weird. It's always looked like that.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:54:12

Yeah, but I don't know what you talking about. I've always looked like this.

If you like the episode or if you hated the episode, or if you are indifferent towards the quality of the episode, please consider sharing it with a friend. Share with an enemy. Share with your cousins.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:28

Especially your cousins. I mean, especially your cousins. Share it twice to all cousins. Send them a link two different times.

Pastor Matt Thrift: 00:54:35

Share it to somebody who's like, trying to scam you through an email. They're like, hey, I'm a Nigerian prince and I'm trying to offer you $6 million. Just send them the link to the episode. That probably helps.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:45

T.J. and I have a lot of cousins. Stalk us, find our information, then find our cousins and send the episode to our cousins. Cousins.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:54:53

Yeah. Send it to our cousins. And then they'll be like, wait. Actually, no, you won't. You're not going to believe this. I know these guys.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:59

Be great.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:55:00

Yeah. If you are listening on Captivate already, you are the 1%, but you are uniquely able to leave us a one time tip, so consider it.

I'm not one to beg, but I will if you want me to.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:14

Yeah. And I mean, even if you're not listening there, that's our website.

So it's like, it's in all show descriptions and if you just scroll to the bottom, you just. Just leave a tip. You don't even have to like subscribe or anything. It's great. It's like.

Actually, I think we titled it the offering plate on the site and I even wrote in something in there about how I don't like offering plates. But this is our offering plate, which might be why we don't get a lot of tips.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:55:34

If you listen to the show, you owe us a tithe. We are a parachurch organization.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:41

Yeah. Also, the ties, you know, they build up. So if you didn't pay last year, ties, like, it accumulates. So, yeah, you know, watch out.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:55:48

Some of y'all are a good six years behind God.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:52

That's. We've been doing this a long time. Anyway, check out other shows in the Anazole podcast network.

Most of them, actually, none of them are as old as this one, so check them out. Check out My Seminary Life with Brandon Knight. It's great.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:56:02

Yep. And we hope you enjoyed it. Coming up, we will be taking a week off before we start a new series, the Whole Church Job fair.

We are going to be interviewing lay people from various Christian traditions about their day jobs and whether the theological stuff we talk about and argue about with pastors and scholars actually make a difference in their lives.

And then to kick the series off, we're going to be joined by Elizabeth Pangolin Clyde and Pastor Joseph Day to discuss how our faith makes an impact in our daily lives in the food industry, which, if you're not aware, that will be all four of us in the food industry. Yeah, that one's kind of the most loaded episode. At the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:42

Perhaps once someone tells them about it.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:56:46

Season one is the Francis Chan episode when it happens.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:50

Or when we show up at his house and just hold up a mic. Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:56:54

You're going to follow him around. One of those street interviewers.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:57

Exactly. Oh, man.