Crafting Worship: The Significance of Ecumenical Collaboration

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:00:22

Ephesians 5:12, 21 in the Christian Standard Bible say, pay careful attention then to how you walk.

Not as unwise people, but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil, so don't be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

And don't get drunk with wine which leads to reckless living, but be filled by the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing and making music with your heart to the Lord, Giving thanks always for everything, to God the Father. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submitting to one another in the fear of Christ in this predicope, St.

Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus to explain what it means to be the church. Right before this passage, the author writes about the differences of light and darkness.

And right after this, the author discusses family relationships to one another.

Kate Blewett why do you think the author ties in the ideas of singing together and submission to one another as part of a definition for being the church?

Kate Bluett: 00:01:24

If you've ever been part of a choir, you will find that there's something really amazing that happens when we sing together physically. Our bodies are keyed to breathe together.

So when a baby's born, they don't actually know how to breathe in a continuous rhythm because it's something that they've never done before. And learning how to breathe in the way that adults breathe without even thinking about it, that's actually a learned skill for a newborn.

And they learn by hearing people around them breathe while they're sleeping. They learn how to cue their breathing off of the sound of people breathing around them.

If you've ever held a sleeping newborn, like day old newborn, they stop breathing. They stop breathing all the time, and then they start back up.

We are built to breathe together in a way, and when we sing right, breath is the instrument. We tend to think about it as being the larynx, but it's the lungs driving that. A choir has to time their breathing.

They have to learn how to breathe together or to breathe in a certain syncopation to get the notes, the chords, to do what they're meant to do. You can have that happen in a large choir by following a conductor down at the front or in a smaller group.

You can learn to do that through practice just with making eye contact and reading each other's body language, breathing in rhythm with each other to get the song in rhythm.

So singing together physically puts us in the work of submitting either to a central authority and the conductor or to each other in a Smaller group singing, also in my experience, probably because of that physical process that's going on, taps into all of the emotions that are connected with our breath.

I had a voice coach in a play I was in in high school, blew my mind when he told us that you can actually create emotions in yourself by changing the way you're breathing. So in this context, we were talking about characters. Well, your character is supposed to be afraid.

Start panting, start panting, and you start kicking into your body's fight and flight reflexes. Something similar happens, I think, when we're singing.

The way that we're breathing, usually deeper than we do when we're just speaking and moving through the day, brings up some of those emotions that we can then channel into the music and it becomes. It's totally physiological, but it feels very spiritual. And I think it can tap into the spiritual.

When people do that and they experience that together and they're in the grip of those emotions together, it can create a bond where there was none before.

So I think Paul is tapping into some very real physical processes that I think in our modern world we are rather far removed from the way we live online so much, the way we intellectualize so many things and the way we spiritualize so many things. As if the body didn't matter. The body matters. And singing together taps that in a way that I think a lot of us have forgotten.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:50

Good stuff. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Whole Church Podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not. That is fine too. We hold no grudges.

That's not who We Are. Who We Are is a show where we get to talk to really cool people and are hosted by the greatest podcast host of all time. Time. The one who.

Who not only is legendary, but like if you like MCU movies, the word Marvel came when someone first met Tiberius Juan Blackwell. How's it going, tj? Good, yeah. Good to have you on your show. We are also joined by a wonderful guest.

Like I mentioned earlier, you heard her just a minute ago. Kate blew it. She is a poet in lyricist from North Texas.

She helps write for the Porter's Gate Worship Collective which what we're going to be talking about today. She also writes for Paul Zach. I'm also going to shout out. I loved her answer to that verse.

In the beginning especially you're talking about like, like breathing and how our bodies matter. And it makes me think of another friend of the show has been guest a few times, Dr.

Greg Allison, who is a Protestant whose wife came from like a Catholic background. So he writes a Lot of books that are, like, kind of bridging those and talking about the various perspectives. And he has a body.

A book called Embodiment that we've reviewed before on the show about the importance of embodied theology. And it's so good. It's so good. Yeah. But today we're here to talk about Porter's Gate Collective, not Greg Allison.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:06:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do want to hear us talk about Greg Allison, you can check it out.

Kate Bluett: 00:06:24

We.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:06:24

That was our last time, was pretty long time ago. But you can also check out the other shows that we work alongside on the Azale Ministries podcast network. The links below. Check it out.

You can slide us a little money. You can get some merch on the store even. We're about to update all of the other ads on our other show.

It's got me looking through all of our merch, and there's some good stuff in there. It's comfy, it's nice to wear, and it's an easy conversation starter.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, I am proud of it because I feel like we don't, like, shy away from the fact that it's a church. Like, this is a church.

But, like, it's also not, like, cheesy or overstated, I feel like. And I. And that's. That's what I like about it. But, I mean, if I didn't like it, it wouldn't be there. So obviously I like it. Yeah. Other things I like.

There's a sacrament of unity. We do every episode on this show because it's impossible to not have unity when you're being as silly as I like to be.

So I always start with a silly question. As part of our podcast liturgy today, we're going to ask this. We'll answer first, give you a little bit of time to think about it.

If you could give a smell to your favorite song, what would your favorite song smell like? TJ's gonna have to go first because I didn't think about my answer to this at all.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:07:42

Okay. So I think to start, I'm just. I'm gonna go with a good old reliable answer. Say it. Just say it by the Mowglis. It is probably my favorite song.

If I thought about it for too long, the answer would change. So I'm just gonna say that song smells not like cigarettes in a gross way, but in, like, a. Okay.

People used to smoke here, but now it's been overrun by, like, a little vanilla, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:08:11

Yeah. It's weird that, like, I think smoke, like cigarette smoke smells terrible, but I actually like the smell of nicotine. Just like.

Just the tobacco smell, you know? Yeah, it's true.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:08:23

It smells good.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:24

Yeah. Also, I'm against smoking, just for the record, but. Okay. Mine's gonna be really weird because there's a really. I'm bad with, like, feelings. Like.

Like, you know, there's IQ and eq, and my EQ is like garbage. So I don't know what this counts as, but, like, there's a specific feeling I get from my favorite song. And only other time I can think of that I get.

It has a smell, so I'm gonna give it that smell. My favorite song is going to be Home from Passenger.

The smell I'm giving it is, like, specifically if you have a campfire near a beach and there's mosquitoes out, so you put a bunch of sage in the campfire to keep the mosquitoes away. The smell that happens when you're, like, near the beach and then campfire with sage. That's. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Really specific.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:09:11

Very specific. Very, very specific.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:13

Yeah. That's all I got.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:09:15

I'm gonna make this as unrelatable.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:19

It's fine. Kate, do you have a favorite song in us? What would it smell like?

Kate Bluett: 00:09:25

Well, I'm going to. I'm going to preface this by saying there's a way in which I actually love the smell of cigarette smoke.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:31

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:09:31

Because my dad used to smoke indoors. And so there's a way for me in which that's actually a really comforting smell, as horrible as it is. I've got two answers to your question.

The first, for really all time favorite song, it's going to be probably Paul Simon's Graceland. And I think that is such a. An overwhelmingly happy song for me that I'm gonna go with, like, sunshine on fresh cut grass, that kind of new hay smell.

The other song, I can't. I can't call it my favorite.

It's not the best song in the world, but it's a song that I deeply loved for 30 years, is tomorrow Wendy by Concrete Blonde. And it is kind of the epitome of my adolescent experience.

So I'm gonna have to go with any smell associated with rain and really, really cheap scented candles.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:29

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:10:29

While you. While you sit there as a teenager and it's raining and you've lit the grocery store scented candles and you're writing what you think of as poetry.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:37

Yeah, man. Good stuff.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:10:40

So there is one thing we found which is a good answer, but there's one thing we found that helps engender a greater Christian unity. And that is to hear one another's story.

Kate, could you briefly share with us your faith journey and maybe tell us a little bit about the faith community you're currently in?

Kate Bluett: 00:10:56

Sure. So I was raised Catholic, pretty standard 80s and 90s Catholic upbringing. I went to Catholic school up through eighth grade.

We sang all of the post Vatican II kind of folksy music at Mass, both in school and on Sundays, which for me were in the same place. But the catechesis that I got then was really terrible. If you ever hear Catholics talk about the crisis of catechesis, that's what I was raised in.

So I made my first communion, I made my first confession, I got confirmed, and I hit high school really believing I was a devout Catholic and the bottom kind of dropped out.

I hit this point around 8th or 9th grade when I sang in the choir all through high school of realizing I had no idea what was going on in these liturgies I was attending every Sunday. And I decided the whole thing was just nonsense. But I kept singing.

I kept singing in the choir every single Sunday all through the end of high school, even though I really didn't believe it and I looked into a lot of other things. I was kind of half heartedly pagan. I never, never made it to atheism. I was sort of agnostic. I never really doubted that there was a God.

But what the nature of that was, I couldn't have told you.

Halfway through college, and I went to a Catholic college because I liked their, their curriculum was very heavy on for philosophy, huge core curriculum.

Halfway through college I had a conversion experience and I, after that started dating the man I eventually married and he convinced me to start going back to Mass. So I returned to the Catholic Church at the age of 20 and have been there ever since.

It's where I'm raising my kids and now I'm a member of a pretty standard American suburban parish. We're mostly white, we sing. What's current now in the post Vatican II musical world.

I show up, I do my Sunday duties, I try to keep my faith alive from Monday to Saturday. That's kind of where I am, I.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:13:15

Think as a, as a non Catholic. Hearing the words post Vatican II musical world is really, really funny. That means nothing to so many people.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:25

If we didn't do this podcast, we wouldn't know what that meant.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:13:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I get it.

Kate Bluett: 00:13:31

Yeah, yeah. Well, for me it's the opposite, right? Because now I am in a world where I do work with a lot of Protestants.

And they're so well grounded in hymns that we got rid of. There are almost no hymns left in the musical heritage that I have. I mean, there's like a handful.

But what happened at Vatican II for us was that all of a sudden English was allowed in the liturgy. All of the sudden music could be using kind of vernacular forms. Right. It didn't have to be music played on an organ written in Renaissance Europe.

It didn't have to be standard hymn forms. And you had this explosion of music meant to be played on a guitar instead of an organ.

And I was an adult, I was in my 30s when I found out that according to the people who were writing this music in the 70s, this was meant to be folk music.

But I grew up listening to Peter, Paul and Mary and Simon and Garfunkel and Pete Seeger and the Kingston Trio, and this, this stuff we were singing in Mass sounds nothing like folk music.

It's like if you got a bunch of over educated choir directors and told them to write folk music, it's what they would write, what they would think folk music is. That's what we sing. And it's developed from this sort of folky sort of sound into these attempts at praise and worship.

But again, over educated choir directors writing what they think is praise and worship or gospel music. It's almost. I don't want to say it's almost universally terrible.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:13

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:15:14

But I. Moment this fall, I was talking to somebody about church music. He's not Catholic, but he told me he was thinking about converting.

And so sometimes he attends Mass. And I was telling him, you know, we have a lot of terrible music. And he looked me in the eye and he said, yeah, I've been going to Mass.

And Catholic, universal, Catholic liturgical music is. Is really horrible. Like, you have to work really hard to make it that bad. And I said, thank you. Thank you so much for where I'm coming.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:46

Oh, man. I.

Yeah, so it's weird having grown up like Pentecostal, Baptist, because like, in my mind for a really long time, Protestants played, you know, you know, the contemporary Christian music kind of stuff and, you know, like, like guitars and whatever. And my uncle went to kind of like an older Catholic church that kind of still did, like, I forget what it's called, but the older form of liturgy.

So whenever we did go, like the two or three times I had gone with him, I was like, oh, so they do hymns and we do good music. And then like, as I get older, I'm like, this is not good music. It's just repetitive stuff.

It's the same thing that happens on the radio, except instead of pop, like it's guitar. And I'm like, I don't like that.

Now I attend a Lutheran church and we doing all these hymns and I'm like, so is it just like the mainline Protestants, we're the ones doing the hymns. Everybody else is doing this other stuff.

But with that, I did want to ask, do you listen to Written Collective or Need to Breathe or any of them, just out of curiosity.

Kate Bluett: 00:16:51

I don't. I went through a phase after my first child was born.

I went through this very long, very scrupulous phase that eventually got diagnosed as obsessive compulsive disorder. I didn't know that at the time, but I just had a baby.

And in part of getting ready for that baby, I had cleaned out so much stuff from my music collection because it's like, well, you can't play this around a baby. It's not classical music. It's got cuss words.

And so I went through this phase of always listening to classical music in the car until that drove me nuts because I need a beat. And so I started for the first time in my life listening to Christian radio.

And I managed to keep that up for maybe a year, maybe two, before it really just got to me that so much of what I was hearing was not a Christianity that I recognized. Yeah. And so I really haven't listened to Christian music since then. I've listened to a little David Crowder. I've had some Andrew Peterson.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:55

Yeah, David Crowder's good. Or was.

Kate Bluett: 00:18:00

Yeah. But like, most of it, most of it Lent and Advent.

I'll listen to Christian music playlists, but like, they're the art and theology blogs, Christian music playlists for those seasons. So they're not radio play stuff. They're the more out there stuff. But no, other than that. I really. I. I don't even get that.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:18:21

I. I get that.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:22

I think that's why it took me so long to figure out what music I was into. Because growing up, I was only allowed to listen to either Christian music or Disney songs.

And my parents exclusively had the Christian radio on and still do this all the time. It is literally the only thing they listen to.

And I didn't realize till like, I was able to listen to other stuff and then go back, I'm like, okay, so this is filled with like prosperity, gospel, Calvinism, like a lot of stuff. And I'm like, this is just not, you know, not stuff that I agree with. And Then even if I did agree with it, it's so repetitive.

It's just like, feel good. It's like constantly eating dessert. And I'm like, why? And then it made sense. All of a sudden I was like, oh, this is why.

When I was younger, I was into like, the almost Reliant K and like, literally anything that wasn't mainstream Christian music, because I was like, I just needed something that was different. And now I have my own taste and it's all folk music that probably also sounds the same, but at least it resonates with me.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:16

Yeah, I see. I. I got. I don't know if I would say lucky, but my parents did not like Christian music.

So the only time I ever heard it was on Sunday on the way to church and then at church.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:30

No, that. That's lucky. You're correct.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:19:34

But so a lot of it now I just. It's fine to me. I didn't get tired of it, but. But I'm currently listening to Les Claypool, so.

Kate Bluett: 00:19:43

Yeah, my parents almost never listen to music at home. They're NPR listeners. So we had one pop album growing up, which was Billy Joel's the Stranger, which is an odd choice for playing around kids album.

But then my sister in high school started dating a Beatles fan, and so my siblings and I all got introduced to the Beatles. And I, after that, started listening to the radio on my own and discovered alternative music.

And this was years after having discovered my mom's old Simon and Garfunkel albums. And my best friend in elementary school loved the Kingston Trio. So I got a lot of folk, but also Billy Joel and the Beatles.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:22

Nice.

Kate Bluett: 00:20:23

Somewhere in there.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:20:25

So.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:26

So in the process of you kind of figuring out the music you liked and all that, at what point were you like, I want to get into songwriting. I want to do, like, poetry for myself. Like, what. When did you kind of start going down that route?

Kate Bluett: 00:20:36

So I had always written poetry on and off about from the time I learned how to write. It wasn't until after I was married and I had spent. I was working a desk job. I was spending a lot of time online.

And The Catholic blogosphere 20 years ago was largely devoted to complaining about liturgy wars and liturgical music. And I jumped into that wholeheartedly for a while, and then I got burned out on it because nothing was changing. Nothing was actually getting better.

We were all complaining about the music, and the music was the same.

Well, once we moved into the house that we're in now 16 and a half years ago, we started attending our Local parish and the music director there was a composer, and his compositions were musically lovely. His lyrics, to my taste, were weak. I mean, they're. They're pretty standard stuff. It's not like. That's not really a criticism. It just.

I love singing, and I want to sing words that are as strong as the music. And so I decided one day that maybe sitting around online and complaining about music isn't doing anything. Maybe I should try something.

And I walked up to him after Mass and I said, you know, I really like your music. I have a degree in English. I've had some poetry published. If you ever want help with lyrics, I'd be happy to help out.

And he kind of smiled in this condescending way and said, well, go ahead and send me some things. And I said, okay. And I went home and I said, oh, crap, because I've never written anything like that. So I.

I sat down and took a stab at writing a couple of hymns and sent them to him.

And he decided that he liked them and said, good, I need an Easter song, and go ahead and write some more lyrics for the rest of the liturgical year while you're at it. And he put them together.

He composed music for them, and he put them together and managed to sell it as an album to Oregon Catholic Press, which is one of the big Catholic lyrical music publishers. And they picked it up, and that was kind of my start. And I found.

What I was very surprised to find was that even though I hadn't grown up with much in the way of hymns, the ones that I knew I'd always loved and writing in hymn forms, it was like. It unlocked something in me, whereas I'd always been like a. I'm going to write in free verse.

I'm going to write this really, you know, experimental things, moving back to these traditional forms. It was like finally figuring out that's how my brain works.

And so, at the risk of getting repetitive, I've stuck with it for the last, what, 14, 15 years?

Joshua Noel: 00:23:31

So.

Kate Bluett: 00:23:32

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:32

Yeah. And that's like. We're going to talk about, like, that's like Portergate Collective. That's their jam is this, like, Kim thing.

And what I love is, like, you're right. Like, that's the older kind of style, and it's like him. And it's lovely. It's beautiful.

And we're gonna see this in a song we're play that you helped write later on. But what's really cool is even though it's in that style, it's still like language in stuff that's relatable to today.

It's like they did a series during all the political mess last year before the election, and it was like, oh, this is actually useful to me. And it's not saying how I should vote or what thing I should care about, but it's rather, hey, God's always in control. This is the kind of thing.

And it's like using language that makes sense, but it's still old hymns and it's like, applicable. This is. Okay, so Christian music can be relevant and good. Crazy. Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:24:25

Right? Yeah, yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:24:27

So there is one thing we like to do before we get into the work that you did with Porter's Gate Collective to help us and our audience get to know you better is the Speed round segment. We're going to ask you a series of questions about what you believe. And there are a couple of rules.

Josh is not allowed to interrupt is the most important rule. No follow up questions. Just try to answer these in a single sentence. You don't have to think about them too hard.

We're not looking for, like, you know, multiple clauses and just the question. Answer it however you want. You can skip it. We can't ask you anything about it. So are you ready? All right, I'm ready. Who or what is God?

What is salvation? What is the significance of baptism and the Eucharist?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:22

Those are how our natural goodness is more fully incorporated into the being of God.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:25:31

What authority does scripture have?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:33

Huge authority, but not maybe total.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:25:37

What authority does tradition have?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:39

Same answer.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:25:43

Do you believe in a continuation of the gifts of the Spirit?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:46

Yes.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:25:48

Do you think the initial evidence of the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:55

Absolutely not.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:25:57

Can God change?

Kate Bluett: 00:25:59

No.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:00

What do you love about the Bible?

Kate Bluett: 00:26:03

I'm gonna say the poetry, but really the fact that the poetry is there and the huge range of genres that it encompasses.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:13

What do you love about the church?

Kate Bluett: 00:26:15

I love the physicality. I love the theology. I love my faith is the best I can say.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:26

All right, which, if any, of the seven sacraments do you follow?

Kate Bluett: 00:26:30

All seven of them, although I'm not eligible for holy orders.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:34

All right, all right. Give it up for Kate Blewitt. Everybody clap in your car. No one's gonna judge you.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:41

Yeah, it's always funny when you get to that last question, when we have someone who is part of the Catholic Church on. Because it's like that's. That's where the sacraments came from.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:48

You know, you better say all seven.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:50

There's only one answer.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:26:53

Yeah, yeah. Like we get Some people where we have to like, listen the seven sacraments because they're, you know, there's some people.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:01

Who, I'm gonna say this, I didn't know if I showed or not.

There's some people who answer and I want to tell them that they're wrong because, like, I know the church they go to and I'm like, no, your church does that, but it doesn't consider that a sacrament. But that's okay. They don't need to know. Whatever they think is right for them is fine.

All that said, the Porter's Gate Collective, that's why we're here.

On their website, the Porter's Gate describes itself as, and this is a quote, sacred ecumenical arts collective, reimagining and recreating worship that welcomes, reflects and impacts both the community and the church. So part of that ecumenical work includes working with Catholic believers such as yourself and Protestant believers.

Could you tell us some about your participation and how that ecumenical drive it talks about plays a part in the creation of the songs that you've helped with?

Kate Bluett: 00:27:53

Yeah. The Porters Gate is an organization founded by Isaac and Megan Wardell. And they are really wonderful at intentionally gathering groups of people.

And they really work to make sure their reach on gathering those people is spread as wide as they can get it. So it's not just denominations, it's, it's, this is America. It's walks of life. Like, they're very, very intentional about.

Are we bringing in black artists? Are we bringing in, you know, Latino artists?

Are we bringing in people who reflect and come from different experiences than maybe a lot of the white artists were used to? It's really wonderful too, that it's not all music people.

So, I mean, most of the people that you're going to meet there, yes, they work in church music. I don't, I don't work for a church. I've done church music, but only as a volunteer and not in quite a while.

I've been a stay at home mom for the last 16 years. But I can, I can show up there and I can sit down at this intentionally longer table that they have built.

And I can take what I have, not only in the skills that I've developed, but in, in the background that I was gifted by my parents and my upbringing. And I can lay that on the table. And it's great when you get everybody together. It's like a Lego convention.

Everybody dumps it all out on the table and you see what you can build with all the Legos everybody brought.

So I'VE been absolutely floored by the talents of people that I've met and the professional development of people that I've met in ways that I didn't even know existed. And people coming out of different musical traditions that aren't all, you know, American suburban folk music.

So one of the great things has been for me, black artists coming out of the gospel tradition have in some cases trusted me with their music and asked me to help them find words for it. And in some cases have taken words that I've already written and folded them into music in their church's dominant styles.

And it's such a humbling process, which I think is fantastic for all Christians. It's funny to me. So when you. Anytime you're working with a group of people, right, you. You've got to be really careful about where you're stepping.

So there have been situations. There was one, we were working on a writing project, looking at songs about eating together.

And I was assigned into a group because we do at these Porter's Gate gatherings, we have assigned songwriting group times and then we have like free association group times, like make your own groups. So this was an assigned group and there was me, there was a Catholic priest, and there were two non Catholics.

And here we are singing about bread and wine. And so real early on we had. I had to stop things and say, okay, hold on, what can we say here?

If this is going to work for all of our churches, what can we say? And we did. At one point, one of the musicians, she said, if we say it that way, my church won't sing this.

And the Catholic priest is like, but, oh, okay, but can we like leave the other wording in as like, as an alternative? Like, well, okay, maybe liner notes there, but like, there's always that kind of dance of finding.

Even though we're these vastly different denominations, what are the things that we agree on? What can we all sign on to? What can we say together? Sometimes that's difficult. Sometimes it's easier than I expect it to be.

I always walk in and I'm like, okay, can we talk about the Virgin Mary? What can we say about communion? And I really surprised at the number of people who are like, oh, yeah, we could totally say that about communion.

Or yeah, I love the Virgin Mary too. It's always a wonderful kind of eye opening experience meeting all of these denominations that I have no experience with.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:32:35

Yeah, it's almost like an exercise in Christian or church unity even.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:40

It is. This is like why I want to talk to people who are on this project as much as possible, because it's exactly the heart of what we're doing.

And I've been really into this the last year, honestly.

I mentioned earlier the ones they did before the election, and one of those was kind of from that black gospel kind of tradition, because you have the Lord Will have His Way. And that probably was my favorite of those songs. I was like, oh, this is great. And then you're talking about, like, what can we say?

One of the things I think is really unique that this project does.

So I got really nervous when I was going through and there was a song Spirit Move, and, you know, growing up Pentecostal and now being part of the Lutheran Church, I'm like, how do you make this, you know, this hymn, one that everyone can play?

And, like, what they do is they use a lot of biblical language that, you know, the Pentecostal church might take that same phrase to mean something completely different that someone else singing the same song might mean by it. And I'm like, that. That's a clever, clever workaround. I like that.

Kate Bluett: 00:33:38

I'm going to say thank you on that one because I wrote the lyrics, this move.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:41

So that's one of my favorites. It's so freaking good. Thank you.

Kate Bluett: 00:33:47

And that's. That's what you're pointing out there, the use of the scriptural language. That's kind of my fallback. Right?

Joshua Noel: 00:33:56

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:33:56

That was what made this the political project that you've talked about. That. That was one of the things that made it so difficult. Right.

How do you say these things in a way that everybody can hear something in them, can get something from them? So a project like this where. Where you have that shared scriptural basis to fall back on of. Look, okay, I can quote this.

And we all agree that this quote is true, even if we're all getting different things from it. It's kind of like opening the door. Okay, we've opened the door.

We might all be walking into a room where we see different things or we all sit in different spaces, but can we at least walk through that door together? Okay, that's the first step. Let's try that out.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:50

Yeah. And I think that's something we could learn in everyone who's listening to us, who cares about church unity, Scriptural basis as a fallback.

Probably a good idea.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:35:00

Yeah. So when we reached out to you, one specific song you mentioned from Portugate Collective was Slow Me down, and we're gonna play it a little bit.

Could you talk to us about what makes this song Meaningful and how you contributed to it.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:25

Oh, good shepherd, would you teach me how to rest?

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:35:32

I'm rushing on Will you make me to lie down?

Joshua Noel: 00:35:40

Will you build a fold by the.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:35:43

Water that refresh.

Kate Bluett: 00:35:47

Wake up my name.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:50

And lead me safely out?

Kate Bluett: 00:35:56

thered in Nashville in May of: 2022

And we'd done some informational sessions talking about people finding meaning in their work, people seeing their work as sort of their mission field, but also how do we bring that sort of validation of work as valuable in a Christian sense into Sunday worship, rather than telling people to leave it at the door? So I got assigned to this writing group with Leslie Jordan and Wendell Kimbrough.

And then Matthew Kamink, who was running the whole thing, came and sat down and said, you know, you mind if I. Mind if I sit in for a few minutes? We said, sure, go ahead, blow up a chair.

And I think it was Wendell was talking about how the discussion of work and the discussion of rest and the informational sections was. Was really grabbing his attention. And, you know, we have such. Such odd notions of work in our culture, right? Our perpetual hustle culture.

And for him, the difficult thing was, was actually seeing rest as a good thing, as a thing that we're meant to do, not just a thing that, you know, sometimes we collapse and have to do. And he came up with this line, good shepherd, would you teach me how to rest?

And we just started running with it from there and structuring it around Psalm 23. Of course, for me, it was a. It was a great experience.

This was actually my first Porter's Gate writing experience that did not involve Paul Zach, who was almost the only person I'd written with up to that point. So I felt very exposed, very on my own in a room of strangers, even though it's just four of us sitting there.

And Gwendolyn Leslie are phenomenal artists and performers who have way more experience than I will ever have. So it was nerve wracking for that as well.

And so I sort of took refuge in my normal thing, which is I opened up my laptop and I opened up a Google Doc, and I started typing notes of what everybody was talking about. And we took that line. Bishopherd, could you teach me how to rest? And. And that's already got kind of a rhythm to it.

Leslie was already starting playing around with singing it, and I think maybe she's the one who kind of hummed A second line following it. And I just started filling in words, you know, things that rhyme, things that came out of Psalm 23.

And this whole sort of hymn based on Psalm 23, focused not so much on the leading and the walking, but on the resting part. Really kind of happened on its own. It was great because Matthew Kamenk was thrilled.

He'd never written a song before, and here he was throwing in song ideas and we were writing, we were putting them into the song. He was so excited.

For me, though, what you're talking about with the sort of ecumenical aspect of it, this was a really funny experience for me because we got to the part. There's a line, there's a verse in there about setting the table. And the first line ends in gold.

Okay, well, so you gotta have something that rhymes with that. And so for the third line, I wrote down, pour the wine. That loosens up my hold. Beautiful line and thank you. But like, I didn't think anything of it.

That's kind of what wine does. Leslie was floored because I had kind of forgotten that there are people who grew up in denominations where you don't drink.

We don't have that in Catholicism. We are all about alcohol and libations here. And so they were kind of stunned at the way I was taking wine literally. Right.

What are the actual physical effects of drinking that wine? I mean, which is also scriptural. Right. There's a line in the Psalms that. That God gives us bread to eat and wine to cheer the heart. Like, that's a.

That's a known understanding in the Old Testament, but we've spiritualized it so much. We talk only about wine as like spiritual joy and. And spiritual renewal and not as physically.

This is something people actually drink for enjoyment and because they enjoy the taste and because they like the bu.

Putting that sort of buzz aspect into a church song about wine, allowing us that sort of loosening up and maybe let go of some of our inhibitions and some of our hustle.

That was really surprising to the people that I was working with, which in turn was surprising to me because I'm just so used to people taking wine that way. So it was a.

It was an eye opening moment of seeing a difference in the places we were coming from, that if I'd stopped to think about it, yes, I'd have realized, but I never stopped to think about the little things like that. But finding a way that we could all go ahead and work with that. And that's a line actually that people have come back and questioned.

There's a big Facebook group called Liturgy Fellowship that I'm part of. And a lot of quarters gate people are in there. And there have been people, church.

Church music directors who've come back and they've been like, are you sure this is an okay line? What about, like, what about the recovering alcoholics in the congregation? Can we really sing that?

And the porter's gate has always been, look, you change what you need to change, you do what you need to do. But I'm also like, what do you do with the gospels? If that. Like, what I don't understand. So it's just right. So it's another one of those. How do we.

Where are the lines that I can't cross but that somebody else can? You know, it's eye opening in that way.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:25

Yeah. And I mean, that's part of the things like you in the song also, it talks about, like, the anxiety of the daily grind.

And somehow, like, daily grind is both like something we definitely just. It's modern lingo. But somehow in the hymn, you're like, this somehow also sounds old. It's like, I thought that line was clever in this song.

And I think it's part of the same album. One of the ones that shocked me, there's a hymn, and I listen to this a lot of times Sunday morning because I have to work on Sunday mornings.

And I just listened to some Porter skate because they have several albums specifically for in the workplace and just helps me not be a bad person. And it's literally, I was having a really stressful day. Headphone in and the hymn plays and it's. I forget which one it is.

But it talks about, like, when you feel like you're going through hell. And I'm like, can we say that in a Christian song? And then I was like, wait, that's exactly how I'm feeling right now, though. So I'm rolling with it.

Kate Bluett: 00:43:16

Yep. Yep. And the Worship for Workers album, they've caught a flack too. There's a. A song on there, prayer of St. Francis. Not St. Francis. Sorry, Patrick.

Breastplate of St. Patrick written by Dan Wheeler and Wendell Kimbrough. And it. It has the line, when I'm busting my ass and it's never enough.

And so the number of people who've been absolutely shocked by you said ass, you know, but yet that's. That's. What was it? Abraham tied to his ass to a tree and walked two miles. So, like, it's. That's. There are ways in which. Yeah.

You do kind of have to Push. What can I say? What can you say again? Where can I draw the line? Where do you draw the line?

But there's, I think some really amazing things happen when you get in a group and you all kind of agree at the outset. Okay, yeah, I'm going to let you push my lines. I'm going to let you challenge me to take this in a direction I maybe would not have.

But that's one of the great things, not just about ecumenical work, but simply artistic collaboration. If we all stay in our own normal lines, nothing really happens that's new and exciting.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:44:39

So fans of the show know we are about to start our whole Church Job Fair series. Fans of the show do not know that we're actually using a Porter's Gate collective song in the series.

And that is going to be day by day and speaks to how each of us help the whole church see God through different eyes. Kate, are you familiar with the song? Did you help write this one? Is there anything you just want to say about this one?

Kate Bluett: 00:45:07

end of: 2020

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:45:17

All right, well, we're just going to play a little bit of it just so we can get a taste.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:25

Serving you remind us of our Savior's bowl and tow Teacher, you are raising up a child to be kind lawyer Give us hope that justice one day.

Kate Bluett: 00:45:44

Will surround us May God's kingdom come.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:51

On earth his will be done.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:45:55

I'm going to end it there. So you have to watch the whole Church Job fair to get the resolution. Sorry. Or you could just go listen to the song. It is really good. True.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:06

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:46:07

But.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:08

All right.

So one of the things that's really helpful about the Porter's Gate, and we mentioned this a few times throughout the episode, just that practical aspect. I mean, even the clip we played for Day by Day, that we're going to hear a lot of the next, like 12 weeks or something.

But it's just kind of this really practical thing of, like, stuff that's in the Bible, that sometimes it's hard for, like, maybe some of us normal people to like, make it relevant, you know, like, it talks about the Bible, how we're all members of the body and it gives a few jobs listed in the Bible.

But for us today, a lot of those jobs are like, just not jobs we work, you know, and then we hear this song and it's like the lawyers letting us see God's justice. The Artist is letting us see clearly God's beauty kind of stuff.

And I'm like, oh, this is saying the same thing, but with words that are relevant to us, I guess. Um, I love that it does that. I was kind of curious.

Kate Bluett: 00:46:58

So.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:58

So, you know, some of the albums specifically surround about themes like that, like Worship for Work, the Lament Songs album.

Do you try to be intentional in your songwriting to keep like in the realm of practical theology, or is that just kind of a function of how the albums are put together?

Kate Bluett: 00:47:13

Part of that's a function of how the albums are put together. So the Porter's Gate deliberately looks for holes in the church's hymnody.

Okay, if, if you look at a given church's list of songs that they sing regularly, what are the topics that aren't addressed musically? They look for those holes and then they put together projects to try and fill some of those holes. Like the politics project you talked about. Right.

That was set up in response to Church Worker is saying, you know, we need to talk about this in our congregations. We need to talk about this with our congregations. What resources do we have? Cause we're looking for resources, we're not finding them. What can we do?

And that's how that project was born, was a deliberate effort to fill that hole in the church's song. So that's always sort of the guiding principle.

Once you've got that groundwork established, though artistically it's very much a, well, let's boil all of the spaghetti and fling it at the wall and see what sticks.

So frequently Isaac Wardell will talk about, you know, with all of the artists that they have assembled online and at the in person songwriting gatherings, he will wind up with something like two or 300 songs, either finished songs or, you know, half finished demos. And that's what he chooses from. To create the final album.

And, and if you're writing, if you're writing with that sort of process in mind, you don't confine it to anything. I would love it if I. If I could be the kind of person who manages to keep the practical theology and the liturgical use in mind all the time.

But regularly when I'm writing, it's, well, I found this phrase that really resonates with me. I'm just going to follow it in rhyme and see where it goes.

Or Paul, Zach or somebody else will come to me and they're like, well, I was thinking about it and I came up with this melody. Like, what, what can we put words to this melody with? To really Kind of take it in that direction.

And it's very much a go ahead and write down all the ideas, finish them as much as you can, see which ones are worth something. And it's almost always going to be surprising.

And then, of course, at the end of any album project, like, we'll do the gathering, we'll write all the stuff at the gathering, there'll be this flurry of recording, and then there's this sort of pause where they look at, okay, well, if we're. If we're.

If we know we want this song and we know we want that song, what are the holes between those songs that we would need to fill in to make a coherent album? And so then that. That gets you kind of back around to the more practical considerations.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:21

Yeah. And I. I really appreciate that part of the work, especially in a day now where like so many songs and stuff are written, where it's just.

Cause people are on Spotify or whatever, they just listen to individual songs a lot of the time. So I feel like people stopped caring about how an album is put together. But when an album is put together, that's like cohesive.

Like a lot of these are. That's something I really appreciate. So. Yeah, I don't know.

I love pretty much everything Portugate does and I'm just stoked to find out that you were like. You wrote Spirit Move and like that. For me, that's like. That might be my favorite, like, current worship song that I listen to. I'm like, that one.

I love it. Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:51:00

Sweet.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:51:01

Yeah. So where should listeners go to follow you and your work? Is we just Porters Gate. Is there like a feature on the website where you can just.

Just, Just give me the Kate Blewett stuff? That's all I'm here for.

Kate Bluett: 00:51:12

No, I. I have a Kate Blewett blog page on Facebook or Katebluett Home Blog is my WordPress. I just started a substack, which I think is Kate Blewett.

I think it's only got a couple of things on it. My blog is the most disorganized thing known to me and. But I post perfect somewhere between two to four poems a week and Facebook.

I also kind of share Quarterscape releases or any other releases that I've been part of.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:51

Yeah, she's also.

We've interacted a few times on the Some Joyful Noises Facebook group that's associated with the podcast of the same name on the Anazole Podcast Network. Because I feel like I gotta plug our own network when I can. But. Yeah, so if you wanna interact with her, she's over there sometimes. So are. So am I.

Tj, I think, is technically present but never will interact with you on Facebook.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:52:15

That's correct.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:16

He doesn't really use Facebook.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:52:17

That is correct.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:18

-: 7777

Well, there's a few things we like to do every episode.

One of them is to just ask if you had to give our listeners a single tangible action, just something practical people could stop and do right now, that would help better engender Christ, you know, ecumenical work. What's something practical that you would recommend our listeners go do right now?

Kate Bluett: 00:52:51

I would say go and read something that was written before the Reformation, preferably before the Great Schism.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:52:58

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:52:59

Go back and read something written when the Church was young and remember that the person that wrote it is as serious and as devout as anyone you will meet today. It's really eye opening to see how people were formed, the concerns that they had, the liturgical actions that they took, without the sort of.

I feel like a lot of our current day writing is very much devoted to apologetics, which is another way of saying who's wrong and who's right and how do we prove it. And I think going back and reading somebody from a very different world with.

With good faith in that person's seriousness helps kind of break us out of those little apologetic bubbles, which I think would go a long way towards understanding our brothers and sisters in the faith today.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:01

Do you have anyone specific in mind that they could read?

Kate Bluett: 00:54:04

I've been reading Julian of Norwich recently. Me too. And she's so comforting. And she says things that I think would shock a lot of people today.

When she says things like, jesus is not worried about your sin.

That, to me, is such a radical notion that when we say that Jesus has already won, or when in her showings, Christ says, all shall be well, that's not just a euphemism. That's not a consolation prize because, well, you really screwed this up. But he'll make sure it's not a total disaster.

No, that's well, as God defines it, all shall be well in ways that aren't just patching up our failures, that are actually good in themselves out of our failures. And so Julian is incredible in that way. But even just the act of learning about her, oh, really?

There was a time when people bricked themselves into small rooms next to churches and that was not seen is weird. Oh. Oh, okay. I guess people listening to praise and worship is.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:23

Yeah.

Kate Bluett: 00:55:24

Still in the realm of normal then, you know, just kind of breaks us out of our. Of our ruts there.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:55:31

Yep. Yeah. So what. What changes is that? What do we all get out of that? If we all read Julian of Norwich, because she is really cool.

A lot of her thoughts just seem really modern, which is. Is. I don't know if that's like, a piece.

People just got really into her a few years ago, and now everyone everywhere is like, jesus isn't that worried about what you're doing. He already knows you. But what changes in us?

Kate Bluett: 00:55:53

I think one of the great things specifically about Julian is the way she writes about the things that we're worried about. Did I do okay? Did I do it well enough? Have I pleased God enough?

For someone like me who has had long, long struggles with scrupulosity, that's a completely radical notion.

And I think we are in a culture that prizes accomplishment, that prizes hustle, like I said, that is so focused on cultivating our own agency, on actualizing every potentiality we could possibly have.

Julian's ability to step back, and it's a gift of God that she was able to step back and see the world the size of a hazelnut spinning in God's hand, like the perspective that she provides. It's hard for me, me to read Julian and then get on Facebook and argue about who's right, because just doesn't matter.

And I don't want to say it never matters. There's plenty of ways in which, sure, our theology absolutely matters, our doctrine absolutely matters, but.

But maybe the proving total strangers on social media wrong about it isn't what matters.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:28

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:57:29

All right, so we're going to get into our God moment. He's just. We talk about where we've seen God recently in our lives, whether that be a blessing, a challenge, a moment of worship, whatever it may be.

I always make Josh go first because it's his idea, and I want the rest of us to have plenty of time to think. Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 00:57:53

Yeah, I always do. This week I'm moving and had to do a team meeting for a different podcast that we're a part of and had to lead that meeting.

And I was stressed out, and I told my pastor, who's also part of the meeting, I was like, hey, you might help me keep my sanity. And then afterwards, he proceeded to get everyone to tell me that I did such a good Job and congratulate me.

And no one had any context why he was acting this way. And they all just kind of jumped on board. Word. And it was embarrassing, but also kind of funny. And also, oh, yeah, hey, that's right.

I don't need to worry so much all the time. Yeah, I constantly am being reminded I don't need to worry all the time. And that will constantly be my God moment, probably.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:58:35

Yeah, it could be. Very well, could be for me, my God moment this week. It's. I haven't spoken to my family a lot lately, like past week or two.

And just now, not just now, but just recently, I realized what that's been like for me. And it makes everything harder. It's like not talking to my dad, not talking to my sister. He's not visiting anybody.

Yeah, it's a lot worse to not be connected to your community. And I just kind of realized that on my way home from work one day and I was like, I should call some people. So to me, that's.

That's basically divine intervention because there's a lot going on on my drive home from work. These people do not know how to drive.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:19

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:59:21

So usually I'm just praying for safety.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:23

Yeah. You call my dad. He'll complain about the drivers with you.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:59:26

He would. He sure would. I think our dads have the same name, so.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:31

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 00:59:33

Kate, do you have a God moment for us?

Kate Bluett: 00:59:36

I don't actually. I'm not somebody who gets God moments in that sense, really, really often at all. By which I mean, like every 20 years or so. But for me, there's.

There's. I have this. This conviction that I cannot shake even when I. When I try to. That God is always there.

And so that the moment, this sort of revelatory moments for me don't really happen. It's just when I am shaken, when I am struggling, which is like daily, I can reach out and that solid thing is still there. And so that's kind of my.

My attempt on. On a regular, if not daily basis is trying to find that solid ground. And it's always there.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:00:37

Yeah. A lot of times that's what mine is. God is everywhere. Everyone in the little things, God moment could be waking up in the morning.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:43

So why I have so many God moments. I just. Every moment's a God moment. If you believe. Try hard limit, transcendent.

Kate Bluett: 01:00:49

Oh, yeah. That way.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:51

Yeah.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:00:52

Yeah. So thank you so much for your time today, Kate. It means a lot. I'm glad we were able to reschedule this for you. Thank you, because this was.

This was a good episode. Please consider sharing the episode with a friend and enemy. Share with your cousins if you liked it.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:06

If you didn't like it, especially your cousins.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:01:08

If you didn't like it, share it anyway. See, you know, we love. We love a good hate train. We'll hop on.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:12

Well, everyone's got a cousin they like and the cousin they don't like, I think. So if you like, share it to the good cousin. You have a cousin you don't like and you didn't like the episode, share it with them. Make them.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:01:22

Yeah, yeah. Torture them. Rate The show on Podchaser, GoodPods, Apple Podcast, Spotify. Give us thumbs up. It helps a lot, boosts a little bit. And it's free.

We love free.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:35

Yeah. Also check out the other shows on the Anazow Podcast Network. Some of the other shows are led by hosts whose dogs don't knock their mics over.

So that's cool. For example, Kung Fu Pizza Party. Brandon Knight, he doesn't have a dog.

He has a child that sometimes chirps in and tells you what kung fu noises you need to make. And it's great. Also, Christian, Ashley, let nothing move you. And TJ and I are part of Systematic Geekology.

We talk about the intersection of pop culture fandoms and faith stuff. It's fun, I think.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:02:06

Yep. Sure is. We hope you enjoy it. Coming up, we're going to be interviewing Pastor Matthew Thrift. Thrifty, author of oh, no, it's just Thrift.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:14

It's just wrong that whole time.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:02:17

Okay. Well, he's the author of Follow Genuine Discipleship in the Modern Age. After that, we're going to be taking a week off.

Before we start the series the Whole Church Job Fair.

We're going to be interviewing lay people from various Christian traditions about their day jobs and whether the theological stuff we discuss and debate about amongst pastors and scholars makes a difference in their lives. At the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:41

Maybe no one's told him yet, so.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:02:43

Season one just ain't ending until he's on it.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:46

It's not ending. It's fine, though.

TJ (Tiberius Juan) Blackwell: 01:02:48

Ever.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:49

Yeah. All right. Later.