Theological Insights from the Classroom: A Conversation with Nick Polk

The Porter's Gate Collective: 00:00:26

Serve you remind us of our Savior's bowl and tow. Teacher, you are raising up a child to be kind. Lawyer. Give us hope that justice one day will surround us.

May God's kingdom come on earth is with be done.

Joshua Noel: 00:00:56

Ephesians 4, verses 25 to 29 in the Christian standard Bible. Therefore, putting away lying, speak the truth, each one to his neighbor. Because we are members of one another, be angry and do not sin.

Don't let the sun go down on your anger and don't give the devil an opportunity. Let the thief no longer steal. Instead he is to do honest work with his own hands so that he has something to share with anyone in need.

No foul language should come from your mouth, but only what is good for building up someone in need so that it gives grace to those who hear. In the book of Ephesians, St. Paul is explaining what it means to be the church before this pericope.

Paul wrote that the church is to work together in all our different roles. Here, St. Paul insists that the church builds one another up in word and deeds, and he even ties in our occupational work to this idea.

Nick Polk, how do you think the way we, the church, present ourselves and work ties into the idea of building one another up?

Nick Polk: 00:01:55

I think that being a part of the church is being a part of the world, and being a part of the world is doing work. We gotta work to live. And so the way that we present ourselves is a big deal.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:09

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. I would even go as far as to say hallelujah.

The Porter's Gate Collective: 00:02:29

Lord, please put your hands on Day by Day.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:46

Hey, guys. Welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not, but if it's not, it's okay.

We have your favorite Tolkien expert here. I am thrilled about our guest. He's a return guest you've all come to know and love.

He is the one who not only raises the roof, he builds a new roof so that he can raise it to the one and only teacher friend, Tolkien scholar Nick Polk. How's it going, author?

Nick Polk: 00:03:15

What's up, dude? I'm totally into tearing down roofs and building up new ones. You know, that's what I do on a daily basis, so I'm excited to do that.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:23

This is occupational. Yeah, this was a bait and switch on us. We thought he was a teacher and now we're going to discover he's a construction worker.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:33

Yeah, he actually runs a Habitat for Humanity.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:36

Yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:03:37

Yeah. Jimmy Carter. Who? Jimmy Carter. Who?

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:40

Never heard of him.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:41

Oh, man. But no, for real, we're here to talk To Nick. You know, this is part of our job fair series, and you guys are like, nick does ministry stuff.

Well, yeah, kind of, but his day job is being an English teacher at a high school. So we're gonna talk to him about the education occupation. That's fun to say together. Education occupation. Okay.

Anyway, but, yeah, so you might know him from the book we've reviewed on the show before. You might know his work with the Mallorn Publishing. I think I said that incorrectly. It's fine.

But today we're here to talk to Nick about what it's like to be a teacher and how our teachers are important part of the whole church. See what it there? Yeah. Good times. Yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:04:19

You did. You did actually pronounce it correctly as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:22

What?

Nick Polk: 00:04:23

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:24

Yeah, that never happens.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:25

That's wild. Yeah, I never. Yeah, I'm a podcaster who can't speak. It's a problem.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:31

Yeah. If you want to hear him not speak.

Well, on other shows, we actually have a nice convenient link in the show Notes to the Amazon Podcast Network website. He's been on pretty much every podcast at this point, so you can hear him mispronounce pretty much everything. Yeah.

There's also a paid subscription for the network on Apple Podcasts, where you can get extra content from all the shows in the network, including this one. And I think you should rate the show while you're over there on Apple Podcasts. I do.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:03

Yeah. It is.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:04

It brings joy and peace.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:07

Copper agrees. Copper.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:09

Copper. That was him saying please.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:11

Yeah. Also, I think there's.

I can think of at least one of our shows that I've never been on, which is Friday Night Frights, so maybe they should check that out if they want to hear people who can speak. Be on a podcast.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:24

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:25

They don't have to. Yeah, but they could. All right, so without further ado, you know, we. We start off before anything else with a holy sacrament, Nick.

Perfect unity through silliness with a silly question.

And for this series, we get to thank Samantha Perez repeatedly, because we put the question up on our Facebook of like, hey, what theological topics are discussed in church that you want to see whether or not they're relevant in people's lives or not? And for some reason, she decided to add the question, is a hot dog a sandwich? And it got a lot of votes, so we felt obligated to ask everybody. And.

Yeah, so that's just the series silliness. Nick, please give us your wisdom. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

Nick Polk: 00:06:16

It is not a sandwich, because a sandwich is, you know, Contents in between two slices of bread or lettuce or onions, depending on your diet. But the hot dog bun is a singular piece of bread.

I mean, if it accidentally breaks in half and your hot dog's in between, then it does become a sandwich. But because it is a single piece of bread, it is not a sandwich.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:43

So subs to you are not sandwiches?

Nick Polk: 00:06:46

Not if they are. Wow, interesting. If they are not. I guess technically if they're not cut through. But generally, I do think of subs as sandwiches much to think about.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:58

Yeah, I. I also just gotta throw out there that, like, I feel like Nick's just exposed. This question is like Schrodinger's cat.

A hotdog is both a sandwich and not a sandwich at the same time. Any moment, those bun can be separated.

Nick Polk: 00:07:14

Yeah. So it's always a sandwich.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:16

So it is just a sandwich. Yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:07:18

Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:18

But we do have a more important question. Do you think that question could be relevant to your life in the slightest?

Nick Polk: 00:07:28

You know, when you were talking about my reasoning and then you connected it to Subway sandwiches, it just. It just kind of reminds me of how logical reasoning doesn't always translate into experience. So I guess, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:43

Kind of shocking, isn't it?

Nick Polk: 00:07:46

Man, I'm kind of having an existential thing going on with this hot dog and Subway sandwich connection.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:55

Well, you wait for me to start talking about soup next time you see her. Soup?

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:59

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:00

Oh, no.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:01

And cereal.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:03

Wait, is cereal a soup? Is that what's coming next?

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:05

That's a different series.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:07

All right, well, speaking of different series, what's not a different series is what we're doing currently. This is. Sorry, that was a terrible transition. This is the whole church job fair. And we have a few different reasons for doing this.

We just want to run down every episode in case this is someone's first episode. You know, every episode is someone's first episode. Our show is primarily listened to, according to our stats.

And all the smart people that run programs that we blindly trust, primarily listened to by people who attend seminaries or who live near big theological hubs. You know, Wheaton, Illinois, Dallas, Texas. You know, we got those things. We're like, okay, we kind of know who's listening.

And a lot of times we, you know, we started the show off and we were like, we're going to talk to the whole church. Anybody in the church. Doesn't matter if they're a pastor or not.

But a lot of times we've pretty much just been talking to pastors and professors, and we want to get on the ground what is the church doing in their daily jobs, in their daily lives? And what are our pastors and seminary teachers missing that maybe they don't see in some of these other occupations?

You know, sometimes we get in our mind, like you're talking about like that reasoning thing. Sometimes, like we get in our mind and we're like on theological concepts and we miss what is a day to day life actually experienced as.

But yeah, so that's why we're doing this. Hopefully it's helpful to pastors and people listening. And also it's just fun to talk to people about what they do.

All right, Nick, so we know you have some ministry experience. We know you had it for a Tolkien subscription. You wrote a book. You have your own substack that we talked about on the show.

People, please go to the link in the show notes and check that out. You do tons of other stuff too, you know.

But could you briefly break down for our listeners who may not be aware, what is your background with the church ministry and all the like?

Nick Polk: 00:09:53

Yeah, no, this is cool. So my parents did not grow up in households where they went to church.

And it wasn't until I was about five that my family started going to church and it was a church of the Nazarene. And my family got really connected. And not long after that, my mom became the children's pastor. A couple years later, my dad became a Christian.

And we just kind of, you know, we lived in a parsonage from when I was in fifth grade all the way through until I graduated high school. And during that time I felt like I was called to youth ministry because as a teenager, guess what, I was really good at interacting with teenagers.

And so, you know, obviously that's. That was what I should have done. And I went to college in Nashville to get my undergrad in religion theology.

And I did that and I minored in social work and it became this hybrid degree called Compassionate Ministries.

f the Nazarene up until about: 2019

I went to work at a university, put in a couple years, started school at the tail end of COVID and graduated a couple years ago and active in My local church. I'm no longer a minister, and I am, like I said, I'm a teacher. High school English teacher. And then I do all the Tolkien stuff on the side.

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:58

Yeah, yeah. I've always. I always thought it would be really fun to be a high school teacher just because I had a lot of fun in there, you know?

Nick Polk: 00:12:08

Yeah, it's a. You know, like I said, it's a little different being on the other side of things, but I really enjoy it and have a good time.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:16

Yeah. I get to bully kids all day, but in like, a lovable way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:12:23

Bullying children is the best. Yeah, for sure.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:27

Yeah. So how would you describe the faith community that you find yourself in now? You mentioned it a little bit, but yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:12:34

So when I was thinking about leaving ministry as a professional endeavor, my wife and I ended up moving into our first house around that same time, too, which was quite a distance away from the church that I had formerly pastored at. And so I left the church. We kind of started attending still, and then we left really shortly after.

And I had thought about leaving the Church of the Nazarene in any way. And so it just ended up being a nice, natural break for us to make. No issues or drama or anything like that. No hurt.

It was just time to move on from that time in my life, that era, I guess.

and been involved there since: 2019

We've volunteered in various places, including youth ministry and other places. And now it's an independent, like, Wesleyan Holiness Church after the whole UMC split.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:59

Interesting.

Nick Polk: 00:14:00

And so that's where. That's where I'm at right now is. Is there. And so, yeah, it's been. It's been beneficial. Got a lot of good relationships and pretty regularly.

So it's a good place. I like it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:11

Yeah. Yeah. So it's a Methodist church. Do you guys have a basketball court?

Nick Polk: 00:14:16

We do not have a basketball court. Really? And I want to, like, the first Methodist Church without a basketball.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:23

That's like the only time I've ever heard of a Methodist church not having one.

Nick Polk: 00:14:27

The big United Methodist church in downtown Nashville is literally, like, there's the church and then they own a gym, and that's, like, where all their income comes from.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:37

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:37

See, I just feel convicted for my college football idol worship. Because right now, every time I hear Methodists, I'm like, man, Southern Methodist University was just crazy this year.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:48

They were nuts.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:51

Blew my mind. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:53

But this is our whole church job fair, not the whole church basketball fair.

Before getting into anything else, if somehow someone never heard of what it is you do, which is high school English teacher, how would you describe your job? And how would you address anyone who might be interested in pursuing this job?

Joshua Noel: 00:15:14

I just love the idea of someone having no idea what a high school English teacher is.

TJ Blackwell: 00:15:18

Teacher.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:18

It's great.

Nick Polk: 00:15:19

Yeah. So I'm going to, you know, I'm assuming these people speak English, and so I'm going to say, okay, the language you speak right now. Okay.

When we're speaking English, there's. There's arbitrary rules that we have decided are the rules of English. And, you know, teenagers, you know how.

How much they enjoy being locked up in a single room for multiple hours of the day doing stuff they don't want to do. Yeah.

So you get all them together and you are supposed to instruct these teenagers on the arbitrary grammar rules through boring grammar instruction, technical stuff. And you get to read books, usually books they do not get to choose, that I do not get to choose. The state gets to choose.

And they're usually books that are not of the 21st century, but usually the very early 20th century. Pretty good literature, in my opinion, but. Yeah. So you get to attempt to teach teenagers those things through those various means.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:33

What I find actually weird about this, that I hadn't thought about until just now, all the way up until college, like, English and literature are the same thing. Like it's the same class. And then all of a sudden you go to college, and those are two different classes.

Do you ever wish that it was two different classes in high school?

Nick Polk: 00:16:52

Yeah, I think that it would be helpful to have a literature and a language department in high schools.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:01

Yeah.

What I really enjoy is, like, I'm at a point in my life where I know a lot of people who are, like, going back and reading books that they either didn't get assigned in school or declined to read in school because they were lazy.

Nick Polk: 00:17:16

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:17

And so every couple of weeks I see somebody's like, oh, I read To Kill a Mockingbird. It's actually, like, really good. It's like, I just read the Great Gatsby. It's great.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:25

God, that's always funny.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:27

They're classics for a reason.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:29

Although I will say To Kill a Mockingbird and also Scarlet Letter. And also, across five Aprils are three of my least Favorite books I've ever read. I am not a fan of any of them, Especially across five Aprils.

That book infuriates me to this day.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:48

All right.

Nick Polk: 00:17:48

Yeah, I've never, never read it. I won't lie.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:50

Don't.

Nick Polk: 00:17:51

Yeah, don't. Don't do it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:53

I never will.

Nick Polk: 00:17:54

No, it is, it is interesting because when I was a kid too, I hated reading in high school. I don't think I read an entire book throughout my middle and high school career.

And like I said, and I was one of those kids who was like, I don't need books and now I teach English. Yeah, that's crazy.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:12

I was middle school and high school. I was borrowing books from the school library and the town library.

Nick Polk: 00:18:19

So. Awesome.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:20

I. I hadn't really fully finished a book until I think it was. Was it Lasso? Lassie?

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:28

What?

Joshua Noel: 00:18:28

I'm thinking of one of the dog.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:30

Yeah, I see. The dog saves the world.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:32

That's the first thing I ever read. And then at one point in my life, someone was like, hey, I think you have adhd. You should try doing some ADHD related things.

Then all of a sudden I loved reading. It was wild.

Nick Polk: 00:18:44

Yeah. Once I found out I had was undiagnosed adhd, it helped a lot.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:49

Yeah, it's crazy how that works.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:51

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:51

But if someone, someone was going to you though, then they were like, hey, when I grow up, I want to be an English teacher. Would you be like, yeah, man, it rocks. Or would you be like, don't, that's stupid. You know what I mean?

Like, like, like a lot of pastors, if you ask them, they're like, if you can do anything other than be a pastor and your spirit will let you don't be a pastor. Like, would you say like the similar thing or do you like. Nah. Teaching rocks.

Nick Polk: 00:19:16

I love teaching. I think that there, I think there's. I can understand, especially if people do it fresh out of college and get burned out.

Because when you are in your early 20s, you don't have experience. And so you let, no matter what it is, whatever work environment exists, systems will take advantage of you. Right.

And so when you're younger, you're like, I just got to put in my dues. And nowhere is that, you know, the education is known for that type of stuff.

And I still think a lot of people who are younger who are like, oh, I'm in. I'm like 35 and I've been teaching since college and now I'm like burnout. I think they set a precedent for themselves that was unrealistic.

And so being a second career, I was able to come in, and I don't participate in the arbitrary nonsense that a lot of people get roped into and try to focus on being a better teacher and the content that I enjoy.

And I think if you can keep those two things in mind and you enjoy working with kids and want to educate kids, I think that it's really, really enjoyable.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:28

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:30

So what are some things that are normal in your occupation that others might not think about?

Nick Polk: 00:20:36

Oh, just the constant improvisation of literally every aspect of life. Classrooms are not just, okay, sit down, listen to my lecture and do this work. It's a kid comes in and they start just crying out of nowhere.

What do you do in that situation? No explanation, no talking to you, Just pure tears straight down. Yeah. And you know what happened? What do you do?

What happens when a kid straight up stands up and yells in your face for no reason that you can tell? Right. And what do you do at that point? You know?

And then also, you know, sometimes kids may talk to you about other personal issues, you know, so I would. So all this stuff is just improvisation or, you know, going to instruction.

What happens when you're trying to teach kids how to read and you find out that one kid who's a senior in high school has been faking it his whole high school career and literally cannot read at that point, what do you do? Yeah, what do you do?

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:47

Send him to the Guild.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:49

Teach him about.

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:50

It's an actor. Yeah, he's straight to the Screen Actors Guild.

Nick Polk: 00:21:54

Go make more money than all of us.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:58

This is probably a really weird question for context for anyone watching. Listening. Nick Polk, in my mind, is also the official dungeon master for all D and D games. Theology Beer Camp related. You're improv.

Do you think, like, does D and D help you be a better teacher? That's such a weird question, but I'm like, improv.

The situations you're coming up with, it's like, to me, I know it's like the characters are different, but it's not wildly different from, yeah, you're on your quest and then, boom, an orc's in your face. What do you do?

Nick Polk: 00:22:33

You know, right? No, I think so. Especially listening to the recent systematic geekology session on D and D from Theology Beer Camp.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:43

Nice plug. I wish I could.

Nick Polk: 00:22:44

Yeah, it was pretty good. You're welcome. Whole church podcast rate and review, subscribe.

But I think in the same way, they talk about spiritual formation, but I think he brings up education. Tom does. Who did the lecture on D and D and I think so.

I think the improvisation would really help you in the classroom as a DM or even just the player.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:12

All right, well, the other thing.

So like, we've noticed when we were talking about like our own day jobs of like food and stuff, or even like when I was at Shutterfly, I worked with like photos. Like, like, sometimes the job world, like, you have your own language, right?

Like, you know, for TJ and I, it's not weird when he says something and I'm like, heard he knows what that means. Everyone around us is like, what? Huh? That's weird. Or they think I'm being rude cuz I'm just like sharp.

Like, why don't you just say you're carrying a knife, dude? You know, so like, like. But that's just like the language of the kitchen.

Is there something similar in your occupation that's like, this is like the language of teachers that like, maybe someone else would be like, huh, Why'd you say it like that?

Nick Polk: 00:23:55

Yeah, it's really just acronyms. So many people just speak in acronyms.

Like when I first started, and people are like, oh, you know, and acronyms related to numbers and letters and people are like, oh, 504s and, you know, random educational lingo. And so you're really. You kind of like after you first start, you hear someone say, oh, you know, the TCUI or whatever, and you're like, what?

And then you're like, oh, yeah, totally, the tcui. And then you Google it immediately and you're like, oh, okay, I know nothing about my job.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:31

I was thinking about Googling it while you were saying.

Nick Polk: 00:24:34

I actually just made up that accurate acronym. There's a really funny ui, but funny.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:41

I followed up with like, so what does tuberculosis have to do with teaching? And you're like, what? Yeah, yeah, good thing I didn't Google it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:50

But. So for the meat of these episodes, we are going to walk through 12 big theological topics that are often better. Theologians, podcasters, pastors.

We've talked about these things before to see how these ideas actually impact people's everyday lives. So we're going to run through 12 topics our Facebook group voted on as the biggest theological hot topics of our time.

We need you to tell us if you find the topic relevant, not relevant, or especially relevant, or if you've never heard of it. Afterwards, we're going to pick one to three of the topics to discuss further.

Nick Polk: 00:25:26

So cool.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:27

Yeah. Soteriology.

Nick Polk: 00:25:31

The.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:31

The nature of what it means to be saved. Relevant, free Will versus predestination.

Nick Polk: 00:25:38

Relevant. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:39

I loved to exert free will in the classroom.

Nick Polk: 00:25:42

100%.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:43

Yeah. Atonement models.

Nick Polk: 00:25:46

Irrelevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:48

Continuationalism versus sensationalism in regards to gifts of the spirit.

Nick Polk: 00:25:53

Relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:55

Christology.

Nick Polk: 00:25:57

Relevant. God's way, I would say especially relevant. Sorry. Both of those especially relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:04

Social justice.

Nick Polk: 00:26:06

Especially relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:08

The doctrine of imago dei.

Nick Polk: 00:26:11

Especially relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:13

The nature of scripture.

Nick Polk: 00:26:15

Especially relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:16

Ecclesiology and missiology.

Nick Polk: 00:26:20

Relevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:21

Demonology and angelology.

Nick Polk: 00:26:24

Irrelevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:26

And eschatology.

Nick Polk: 00:26:29

Irrelevant.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:32

All right, so I like that a lot. I like that. I mean, I feel like you could make any of these things relevant in a classroom if you chose to, but, you know, totally.

Nick Polk: 00:26:41

I teach mythology and I bring up demonology and angelology all the time.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:46

Nice.

Nick Polk: 00:26:46

Yeah. So it is kind of. It's a fun topic. It is.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:50

You're like, actually. All right, kids, specifically, we're reading the.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:54

Gozar issue, whatever it's called.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:57

Yeah. Every time I teach Gilgamesh, it becomes suddenly really real.

Nick Polk: 00:27:02

This is a severed head and this is a pentagram.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:06

This is sigil class for the next week.

Nick Polk: 00:27:09

Sigil class? Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:11

All right, so nick, of the 12 that we just listed, if you had to pick one or two, we'll go with. Let's go to. You got to pick two of the above theological topics that you think are relevant to your day to day life.

Just talk a little bit more about what.

Nick Polk: 00:27:27

What two would you pick out of that whole list? Yeah. Wow. On a daily basis. I'm going to go with ecclesiology. Hold on. Look at the list again.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:42

12 is a deceptively large list.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:45

Yeah. Also, we tied ecclesiology and missiology together, so it's kind of a cheat. You get to pick both as one.

Nick Polk: 00:27:51

Yeah, I'm into that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:53

Yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:27:53

And then I'll do. I'll do free will versus predestination.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:58

Ooh, fun. All right, so I was gonna say, let's start with the first one. Missiology. Ecclesiology. How.

How is that relevant in the day to day life of high school English teacher?

Nick Polk: 00:28:08

Yeah. You know the way that I think of ecclesiology, because I am a like religious pluralist. I think that the ecclesia or the.

The kingdom of God or the church is a metaphor for just being a being in the cosmos. Not even just a human, but next to all created beings.

And so what is the nature of being a person that lives in cooperation with our friends, our neighbors, our enemies, whatever that looks like. And usually no matter which community you come from, religious or non religious, usually people are trying to generate Some sort of harmony.

And so in the classroom, trying to figure out first, you know, try to keep it subject based and try to make it cross disciplinary. Because a lot of people who are like, why are we learning this? How is this relevant to math or history?

I teach in American literature class and we start things off by literally rarely analyzing the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. And kids are like, why are we learning history in English?

And so I try to really bring those two together and then expand that to be like, okay, as a person, we don't just categorize our lives really. We might need to, just for organizational sake. But our lives are intermingled, messy, connected.

And so how, if that's the reality of our world, how do we. How do I be a good teacher in encouraging cooperation and balance between all that?

Joshua Noel: 00:30:05

All right, and now I'm trying to remember the other one that was so good, man. What is the other one?

Nick Polk: 00:30:11

He said, oh, free will, predestination.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:15

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, break that down. Like high school English teacher. Why is that? Why does that matter to you?

Nick Polk: 00:30:23

Yeah, mythology, which is a class I get to teach, which is Greek mythology, particularly, which is very fun. But that question is not just a Christian one. It's rooted in Hellenistic philosophy and the ancient Greeks.

And of course, ancient philosophers such as Confucius and others also dealt with that sort of stuff. That's a pretty universal human question, I feel like, philosophically and religiously.

And so being somebody who has free will proclivities as opposed to predestination or determinism. There are things that are determined in our life. We do not get to choose where we're born. We don't get to choose what era we're in.

To a large degree, life thrusts us into things. I can't grow feathers and fly, that sort of thing. And so there are things that are determined for me that I get to respond to.

And so trying to bring those types of questions and that time a framework into the curriculum. You know, whether it's a novel or a Greek myth or even grammatical rules. Right. These rules are given to us.

We don't really get to decide how English functions, except sometimes we do. You know, like when brain rot becomes a word, you know, in the dictionary or whatever, that's fine. But.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:55

Yeah, or truthiness.

Nick Polk: 00:31:57

Oh, yeah, truthiness bear.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:59

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, and what, what I love, like that you're getting at there too, is like just how everything's kind of interconnected.

And this is where, like my math brain with theology I'm like, what do you mean? Everything's relevant. But I have to remember that not everyone is me.

But, like, you know, I'm hearing what you're talking about of this, like, openness kind of like with free will. And then I'm like, okay, that makes perfect sense, knowing what I know of how Will thinks of eschatology, you know, because I know that.

That Nick is universalist light, you know, and that has to do with him thinking about this free will thing. That also has to do with what he thinks of the characteristic of God, of, like, being an open theist.

And that also probably goes back to your thing about ecclesiology being important, because you think that all of this stuff is open, and it's like, oh, yeah, it all kind of ties together a little bit.

Nick Polk: 00:32:45

Well. And even psychologically.

And psychologically, if people feel like they are in control of their lives, you're happier, you make more money, which isn't the end goal, but more money means you get to pay your bills and stuff.

And so anyway, that's also something I want kids to feel like they have a say in their own lives, even in the structures that you were talking about and I was talking about that we don't get to decide. But, yeah, right.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:15

And that also is going to be what makes this challenging for church unity.

Tied to, like, the main theme of our podcast is like, that's why, for those wondering, sometimes you get all these big church divisions, and you're like, why are they arguing about, you know, this angel thing?

And it's like, well, it's because their view of an angel has to do with how they believe God treats predestination, which has to do with how you think salvation works, which has to do with whether or not you're a Christian at all. And it's like, yeah, so. So even the minor things, if you pull at the thread.

Yeah, they are minor, but also there's a reason it's causing division, and it actually is a little bit more complicated than people think. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:50

Yeah. So is there any one topic in the list that you think is particularly irrelevant?

Nick Polk: 00:33:59

Particularly irrelevant. I'm trying to think of which ones. I'll pick an easy one.

I picked a demonology and angelology, and not because Josh said it, because, you know, because there are people who. It is interconnected. Yeah. And you grow up. I grew up believing in angels. It's kind of part of the cultural zeitgeist.

You know, there's movies about angels. There's, you know, starting angels.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:30

Right.

Nick Polk: 00:34:30

So totally. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:34:33

The Good Place.

Nick Polk: 00:34:35

Absolutely. What's. What's the one with Henry rollins? That's like 10 years old, 15 years old, you know, I'm talking about. He plays like a fallen angel. Totally.

I can't.

TJ Blackwell: 00:34:47

Little Nicky Adam, A little Nikki.

Nick Polk: 00:34:49

Come on.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:50

Yeah.

Nick Polk: 00:34:50

100.

TJ Blackwell: 00:34:50

Placid. I watched that movie last week. What a good movie.

Nick Polk: 00:34:53

Chicago freaking Rules, dude. I don't remember what he says, but when they play Chicago backwards, it's awesome.

TJ Blackwell: 00:34:59

Popeye's chicken rocks.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:03

Well, that's like, man, I wish I remember which church fathers had some of these debates. But, like, that's where you get some of the weird things. And I'm going to tie this to Emperor's New Groove, where like.

Like, you get, like, you know, crunk with the angel devil thing. It actually, that's like a silly cartoon cliche. Now, that started off as some theologian had an idea that everybody argued about.

Does everyone have their own personal guardian angel? And that basically had to do with whether or not you thought God was omnipresent.

And then blah, blah, blah, blah, arguments happened, and then someone. Well, then why do people do evil if everyone has their own angel, why wouldn't he just guard him from the evil?

It's like, well, because there's also a fallen angel that follows him around. And then they developed this. I think it's Thomas Aquinas who did this, actually. Shame on him for being stupid, but good.

And Devil angel on your shoulder came from that argument that eventually fleshed out into. Now we look at it and we're like, that's silly. But if you follow the string, you're like, okay, I see how you got there. It's still silly.

At some point, someone sort of stopped and said, wait a minute, we've taken this too far. And now we have really amusing things with Kronken and Burt's New Groove. So I guess I'll take it.

Nick Polk: 00:36:06

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:36:07

Tj, I wasn't going to say anything nice.

Nick Polk: 00:36:10

No.

Well, I mean, as you know, I'm reserving myself, but I think it's just a lot of those people were dealing with the way that cosmology was conceived back then, too. And the way that we do theology interacts with the way that we understand the world scientifically.

And angelology and demonology does not make sense in the current rendition of our scientific understanding of the world. But I am open to things being in this world that are unexplainable. And people do have real experiences with what we would call supernatural things.

But for me, I'm more naturalistic. In that sense, and this is. I'll keep it real. I'll make it relevant. Just because why I think it's irrelevant is kind of similar.

Like, I can eat a banana, and it is healthy for me. Somebody who is allergic to bananas will eat a banana and have an allergic reaction and either have a rash or a problem or die. Okay.

So I think there are some areas in the world, elements in the world that are unexplainable, that some people have negative or positive, what we would call spiritual experiences, and some who either don't have that experience. So, yeah, that's how I try to think about it.

But I think actually thinking that angels and demons are real and having a real material impact on our lives, I think should be phased out.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:47

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna slightly disagree.

Nick Polk: 00:37:50

I like it. Do it, do it, do it.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:52

Not heavily disagree. I. I'm pretty sure I've saw angels once.

But I also, like, I know how the human mind is, so I'm like, I don't always trust everything I think I saw, you know, especially if no one else saw it. But I remember I had like, one spiritual moment where I was like, just overwhelmed by all the pains in the world.

And for some reason, seeing that at that moment really helped me. And the thing is, though, like, I didn't have, like, a really fleshed out theology of, like, angelology and what I believed on angels.

I was just like, in this moment, concerned with all the. What was going on in the world.

And then seeing that allowed me to have some comfort of, like, there is some good presence out there, you know, and that's where I'm like, maybe relevant. Maybe I also could just be crazy.

And maybe if I just had a better theology of God being omnipresent and in all things, I wouldn't have needed to see angels. I don't know. I don't know.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:45

Yeah, you know, Yeah, I see God in this Honda flat. So. So what? What would you rather the church and our pastors or theologians be focusing on than angelology? What, What.

What good could have been done in the world if Thomas Aquinas had just stopped writing? Just put down the pin.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:12

So much, so much crap.

Nick Polk: 00:39:14

I try to read what you've written, and there's literally so much. It's like trying to read Aristotle. Good God.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:23

Quick, here's my good. That could be done. If Thomas Aquinas didn't write, less people would have believed in his crazy version of just war theory.

Less churches would have justified violence. Nazis might not have Been backed by the church as much. I think it would have been pretty big if people just. If he would have just stopped writing.

Nick Polk: 00:39:42

Could have been great to hear here, folks. Thomas Aquinan, the reason for Nazism.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:48

I don't know why this is like, an ungodly gig. We're just like. We just don't like that guy.

Nick Polk: 00:39:52

I've heard that many times. Yeah, Southern Baptist and conservative Catholics are coming after you, dude. They're coming after you.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:01

Which we're having a conservative Catholic on in, like, two weeks. But he knows D.J.

Nick Polk: 00:40:05

Is shaking in his boots. Yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:07

I'm shivering me timbers.

Nick Polk: 00:40:09

Oh, man, Xerxes. Okay, I won't go there.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:15

Sorry.

Nick Polk: 00:40:15

South park reference.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:16

I think that we also could have greater church unity if Catholics would just denounce Thomas Aquinas.

Nick Polk: 00:40:22

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:23

Again, it's whole church, except for that guy. That really. We're gonna change the subtitle.

Nick Polk: 00:40:27

I love that all of y'all are Aquinas haters. Like, I also am, like, a 95% Aquinas hater. There's like 5% Aquinas. And I'm like, that's pretty cool. That's pretty legit. 95% of them can go away.

Can go.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:41

Yeah, just like.

Nick Polk: 00:40:42

Just like Calvin, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:40:44

This is why we're starting our Nick Polk cult. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a reference to systematic ecology. You guys have to watch the Dead Space episode to get that reference.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:53

So what should the Church be talking about instead of.

Nick Polk: 00:40:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's Angela. I was talking with some friends about this, and it kind of has to do with, like, imago DEI Christology stuff.

And sometimes that stuff can get really abstract.

And I think one of the things that I am more orthodox than a lot of orthodox Christians are, which I don't really, like, put a whole lot of stock into that because I'm totally fine with being a heretic. It doesn't really matter to me.

But one of the orthodox things I think is so important is that God is incarnate in Christ materially, throughout eternity, infinity, however you want to put that. Which means that both directions of time. God was not. There was not a point where God was not incarnate. Okay?

And so people are like, oh, God was just kind of floating in the ether and then decided to, like, randomly become Jesus. It's like, actually there's a moment of history where that happens.

But ultimately, God and materiality have been intertwined forever, which means that the material world and the gospel and the work of Christ and the kingdom of God has been going on since the beginning of the cosmos and will continue to go on until the end of the cosmos, if there even is an end to the cosmos. Which means that our real work is relevant and that Christ is all in all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:33

I love Christ is all in all is one of my favorite theological catchphrases. That'd be a fun series. Favorite theological catchphrases just all shorts, though.

But anyway, Nick, we believe here at the whole church that everyone sees the world through different eyes. We want to pull in some love and ass here. In all seriousness, we're the whole church. Everybody has all these different perspectives.

But is there anything that you think in your work that you see as a high school teacher that our pastors, church leaders and theologians who might be listening to the show could benefit from seeing for themselves or learning more about from people like yourself or other high school teachers?

Nick Polk: 00:43:14

Stop trying so hard to convert people.

And what I mean by that, if we're talking about unity, is I'm not talking about promoting things that we think are valuable or bring goodness into people's lives, but just in a similar way where I do yoga and somebody does Pilates.

There's different benefits, but I'm not going to be like, you need to get rid of those Pilates, dude, because if you do those Pilates, your body is going to be wrecked and you're going to die. Not true. It's kind of a bad example. But I'm trying to think of a good analogy there.

But I think in the classroom, there's a benefit to not focus on trying to convert kids a certain way. Now there's going to be biases that everyone has that you bring into the classroom.

And our system is set up to instill certain biases about topics like the American Excellence, for an example.

But I think that focusing on just, okay, how do we try to bring about the best qualities in an intellectual and personal aspect of a child so that when they grow as an adult, so, you know, as a person in general. And I think that's something that pastors could do or people in ministry. And I think they do. I think they largely do.

And I think they find that rooted in Scripture and the Gospel. But I think that then you'd be like, the whole church podcast, be open. Not everyone speaks the same language.

TJ Blackwell: 00:44:54

Yeah.

And also I think it's important for people to just remember, as a former teenager, kids in high school, they're like, they're living life pretty much as raw as possible.

Nick Polk: 00:45:07

Right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:08

Like, everything that happens to them is happening for the first time.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:11

Yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:13

Like, they just get it full. They have to learn how to deal with it. And no one sees that more than teachers.

Nick Polk: 00:45:18

I think, man.

And even still with teachers and pastors do this too, is that you get so disconnected from your experience, from the past, where I think a lot of pastors or theologians or whoever, they have such a hard time working with people on their spiritual journeys. And then the same thing when, you know, it just happens. You get older and people are like this generation and these young whippersnappers.

I never, you know, damn kids and their music. And it's like, literally, that will be forever.

And so I think, just like you said, the only way to, like, possibly not lose sight of that is to, like I said, be kind of steeped in it and recognize that raw experience. Yeah, I like that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:01

Yeah. So there are any questions you think we might have missed that people might want to know about you or your work?

Nick Polk: 00:46:08

I think that maybe a question of, like, where does. I think, like, directly, explicitly, like, where does my faith come into it? Like, we're asking all these questions about it. Right. About my faith.

But I think a lot of people, like, are like, oh, I have a calling to be a teacher, and I'm going to do God's work, which means I'm going to try to bring the gospel in the classroom in the most covert way I can to save souls.

And I just think that approach, while understandable where it comes from and the good intentions, I think is the wrong way to go about it because of the various things we've talked about. If you're going to be a teacher. Now, if you're at a Christian school, different.

But if you're in a charter school or a public school and you're going in there with an ulterior motive than nurturing the whole aspect of the kid through education. You should probably take a step back and reevaluate if you want to be a missionary or an evangelist rather than a teacher.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:18

Yeah, yeah, man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:19

I was thinking something like, do you really mess with the seating chart on purpose?

Joshua Noel: 00:47:28

Oh, man.

Well, anyway, Nick, one thing we usually do before wrapping up, we like to ask our guests if they could provide a single tangible action just for something practical people could go do what it would be.

But for this series specifically, we want to know what could anyone in the church, lady or minstrel, what could they do to help someone in your occupation in their daily life? You know, teachers are a part of the church. What can the church do to help our teachers?

Nick Polk: 00:47:58

My church, in particular sponsors our county or district schools through, like, meal programs because we've got a lot of kids who are poor.

So I think just working with teachers or educate educators, no matter if it's private, public, or charter, and seeing what the needs of teachers and students and families are and build a relationship and see what they need and try to work with people to, you know, bring those needs and bring the kingdom of God in that way.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:30

What. What changes in the world at large if churches start supporting teachers more?

Nick Polk: 00:48:37

I think there's just an inherent value that people feel like, you know, I think there's. We all have complicated relationships with religion, you know, and us here, the church.

But when people have a sincere desire to build a relationship and help people, there's just.

There's something attractive to that, and there's something that just, like, I know for me, I'm supported in that way through my church, and I feel like I have a value and that my career is desired.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:11

Like, it's true. So before we wrap up, we like to ask everyone to share a God moment. And that could be anything.

That could be a moment of worship, challenge, blessing, whatever it may be. Always make Josh go first. So, Josh, do you have God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 00:49:30

Yeah, I got a weird one. I love the weird ones.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:33

Excellent.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:34

I got a Steam deck for my birthday, and I got a couple new games. But what I've been enjoying the most is playing the original version of Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.

And, yeah, I'm a huge Kingdom Hearts nerd, and everybody knows it. I have a substack about Kingdom Hearts. Wow.

But there's just something about, like, it not being the remastered version where the songs are better and the graphics are updated, and it's like, no, this is actually the original, kind of crappy Game Boy version with, like, the Game Boy music. And I'm like, I love this so much. I literally just sat there doing my homework with, like, the Game Boy version of Kingdom Hearts song going on.

And I'm like, yeah, just keep playing. I'm not gonna hit start. Don't worry about it. And for me, what clicked in my head was, this is why my grandpa loved the King James Bible.

It was the retro Bible because I remember talking to him, and it wasn't like he ever thought this was a better Bible. It just. For him, there was something there that clicked. And I'm like, oh, this is what it is.

And also, from now on, I'm referring to the King James as the retro Bible. Yeah, but that's my God moment.

Nick Polk: 00:50:36

All right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:37

Mine is maybe less silly. I don't know. It's definitely a challenge. I've been.

If, for those of you don't keep up with the NHL, instead of All Star Weekend, they've decided to do the Four Nations Face off this year, which is perfectly timed politically, because now we get. Get to watch the United States hockey team play the Canadian hockey team.

Nick Polk: 00:51:09

Oh.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:10

And they're, like, booing the national anthem. And it's just. It's. Honestly, it's kind of hard to experience. It's. It's genuinely difficult to think about.

Like, it's no longer a fun way to get away from everything. But, man, politically charged hockey is so good. That's why Miracle on Ice is so good.

Nick Polk: 00:51:37

I've seen some clips of the fights that have been taking place, and they look awesome.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:42

Yeah. Yeah. Three fights in nine seconds.

Nick Polk: 00:51:45

It's fantastic for hockey.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:47

Yeah. But it is really difficult. And the final is Thursday for you guys. This episode won't be out by then.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:55

Now, if Thomas Aquinas wrote Just Fighting for Hockey, do you think it would be just as bad as his Just War?

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:02

Yeah, yeah, I do, actually. And I could go very in depth into that. We don't have time for that.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:10

Yeah. Yeah, probably. So, Nick.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:14

Nick, do you have a comment for us?

Nick Polk: 00:52:17

Yeah, you know, we've got this new series at church where it's just talking about God kind of having you move and just, you know, just felt kind of called to do something in my community. And so just kind of had a moment where earlier this year, he kind of did like, an altar call. And I hate those. I find them very performative.

But it was one of those movements of the spirits, and it created empathy in me where I was like, this is symbolic of me getting off my butt. And. And hopefully that translates spiritually to my daily life.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:53

Yeah, yeah, we're. We're in Castle. We. We like.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:55

Yeah, yeah, you lost us the altar call. That's.

Nick Polk: 00:52:59

That's how I used to love. I used to love alter calls.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:01

And I do think sometimes there's a performative stuff. Like, I love some alter calls here.

Nick Polk: 00:53:07

That's. That's pure cynicism. That's not me actually judging them. That's pure cynicism. And it's, like, something I have to work out personally.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:15

Yeah, we disagree. Nick makes me just feel so nice. I don't know. He's just too kind.

Nick Polk: 00:53:21

Here's the thing. I love the spirit of Pentecostalism. If there's something more punk rock than Pentecostalism, I don't know if there's something else.

It just makes me uncomfortable. Unless I'm out of punk.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:31

That's why Aaron Simmons that's why Aaron Simmons is Pentecostal. I think specifically that reason.

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:37

So if you like the episode, please share it with a friend. Share with an enemy, share it with the cousin. Share with all your cousins. One big happy whole church family.

If you're listening on the Onazel Ministries or on Azale podcasts YouTube channel, hit like hit subscribe, pretty please. Also hit the bell. So you know when we upload new episodes.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:57

Yeah, yeah. Also check out some of the other shows on the podcast network. We mentioned Systematic Ecology a few times.

It'd be cool if you check that show out or if actually if you go to the website, you just see whatever one's newest and check those out. Usually it's Systematic Ecology first because they release a lot of episodes.

But if you're listening on like the weekend, you'll probably get some Brandon Knight stuff and everything he does is cool. We love Brandon. Brandon, we love you.

Nick Polk: 00:54:22

Yeah, I love you, Brandon.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:25

We do love Brandon. So we hope you enjoyed the show.

Next week we're going to be joined by Ryan do, the host of Skipping Church and Across the Bifrost, and a merchandiser for a regional bread company, which, you know, probably the most impressive of the three.

After that, Jerry Koontz, Joshua's uncle, who is a devout Catholic and a strategic account manager for Spectrum, will join us to keep this series going.

And then Kristen Tiedman, the co owner of Tydeco of famous, organizers of the Electric Beer Camp, will join us to discuss her job and how her faith tradition impacts her her daily life as an event planner. And at the end of season one, Francis Chan is going to be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:04

Probably if someone tells him as soon as he hears Nick Polk's voice commanding him to join, he'll immediately be part of the cult and start hosting the show.

TJ Blackwell: 00:55:15

That's true.

Nick Polk: 00:55:16

So I got real Francis Chan. Get in there, get in there, get in here.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:21

Oh, man. All right, guys. Thank you all for listening. Later.

The Porter's Gate Collective: 00:55:40

Lord, have mercy on us Lord please put your hand on us day by day Lord, be close to us Lord, have mercy on all us Lord, please put your hand on us day by day.