Love Over Fear: Insights from Brandan Robertson

Joshua Noel: 00:00:27

Galatians 6, verses 2 through 5 of the New American Standard Bible bear one another's burdens and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks that he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting, but to himself alone and not to one another. For each one will bear his own load. In this section of scripture, really interesting, St. Paul's writing to the church in Galatia.

He just finished discussing about the fruit of the Spirit and what kind of Christian like virtues we should have, what we should be known for. And then in this scripture, Paul both tells us to bear one another's burdens and also to mind your own business.

So Brandon Robertson, in what ways do you think believers should bear each other's burdens or just care for their own stuff?

Brandan Robertson: 00:01:16

Yeah, I mean, I think the essential heart of the Christian faith is that we are the body of Christ, we are the community of Christ. And in that way we are called to carry each other's burdens, to help make the yoke of life light.

At the same time, we're also called, as you pointed out, to not judge one another.

And so while carrying one another's burdens, we must strive to do that without judging and condemning folks for missteps or places that we disagree with them. And that's a tension that's not easy, but it is the high calling of Christ.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:48

Yeah. Hey everybody, welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Probably your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not. That's cool too. It's fine.

We don't hold any grudges usually. I am really excited for today's episode.

We're going to be talking with Brandon Robertson, Christian theologian, pastor, tick tock influencer, author of several book including most recently Queer and Christian Reclaiming the Bible, Our Faith.

In our place at the table, we're going to be talking about how you can be a progressive Christian and still reach out and talk to those who maybe are in some of the more traditional lanes and what those conversations might look like today. So really excited to talk to you, Brandon, and have you on. Thank you so much for joining us.

Brandan Robertson: 00:02:31

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:33

Yeah man, it's going to be great because you're here and because we have a good host. You don't just have me doing this little thing at the beginning.

You also have the reason for podcast the one who Morgan Freeman tries to model his voice after the one and only TJ Tabriz on Blackwell. How's it going?

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:50

Good, thanks. And that's Joshua Noel, by the way. Didn't introduce himself.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:55

Yeah, who cares?

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:57

If you're listening by now, you might know. This might be your first episode, then welcome.

But if it is your first episode, if you're a longtime guest, you should check out the Onazel Podcast network website. The link is in the show notes. For that, you just get to know what we're all about and see some of the other shows we're involved with.

And you can support us by going to Captivate, checking out our merch. It's cozy, it's comfy. It's not super overstated, like a lot of merch tends to be. So check it out.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:25

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, and all that said, we have.

We have a holy sacrament we like to do on this show because it's actually impossible not to have Christian unity or any kind of unity. You can't be in disagreement when you're being a silly as I like to be. So we always start off with a silly question.

Today is a really fun one that I'm trying to remember my answer to because it's been a while since I wrote the outline. I don't know what I was gonna say, but if you could have a slinky as any animal other than a dog, what animal would you want as a slinky?

Tj And I'll answer first, give you a little bit of time to think. I'm.

You know, I'm actually gonna say giraffe, just because my brain, this whole time I was asking the question is trying to wonder, like, would the slinky part be the neck? Would it be the body? And then you'd still have that weird long neck, or would it be like a double slinky? I don't know.

And my brain's stuck on that, so that has to be my answer because I can't think of other things right now.

Brandan Robertson: 00:04:17

So.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:17

So is it like. Like a living animal as a slinky, or.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:21

No, just like, you know, like how you have a slinky dog but it's this animal instead.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:25

Okay, cool. I'm probably a shark. I think a slinky shark would be pretty fun. Kind of hard to hold, but yeah, you know, just. And it's the same thing with me.

Like, is this gonna start at the mouth or is it gonna start at the tail?

Brandan Robertson: 00:04:39

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:39

Is it all the whole thing? There's no body. Who knows?

Joshua Noel: 00:04:42

But also, if there is a slinky T. Rex and I Ever see it? I'm gonna get it and send it to dj. Just so everyone knows.

Brandan Robertson: 00:04:50

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:51

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:52

Brandon, what about you, man?

Brandan Robertson: 00:04:54

Yeah, I think I'm on the same wavelength. The first thing that popped into my mind, and I don't know why, but we're gonna go with it, is a slinky dolphin.

Dolphins were my favorite animal growing up, but, yeah, I don't know how exactly it would work, but it seems cute, so let's go with it.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:10

Yeah, I mean, I'm here for it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:11

Really underserved market niche animal slinkies. I thought I would have seen more of those growing up.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:18

Yeah, I hadn't thought of it until. I really don't. I don't remember what this question came from. I think my wife might have helped me come up with this one, this good one, though.

And I want to see more slinky animals. That's what I know. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:31

All right, so we're going to break into that market. And another thing we've seen that helps unity is to hear one other story.

So, Brandon, would you mind sharing with us about your faith journey and getting to where we are now?

Brandan Robertson: 00:05:44

Yeah, I'll try to condense it a bit, but really, I mean, I ended up growing up in a house that was generally non religious. And around the age of 12, I was invited to go to church with my fundamentalist Baptist neighbors.

And I just thought it was a good excuse to get out of the neighborhood on Sunday. And so I started going to church with them. And within a few months, I heard the gospel. I heard a message of good news.

I was a young kid that was bullied a lot, struggled with mental health issues. And so when I heard a message of God's love, acceptance, and forgiveness, it really was like a healing balm to my soul. And I gave my life to Christ.

And literally, within, like, four months, I dove headfirst into church and felt a distinct call from God to give my life to proclaiming this gospel as a pastor. And so, really, from 12 old till today, I'm almost 33, I've been kind of on this journey of trying to preach the gospel.

And of course, that has evolved and changed a lot over my faith journey. The biggest period of change and kind of deconstruction took place when I went off to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago to study to be a pastor.

Yeah, yeah. Moody is a unique place. Yeah, it's this very conservative school, but it's in the heart of downtown Chicago.

And that was the perfect recipe for my own faith deconstruction.

Because I would hear conservative theology in the four walls of our campus and then go off of campus and be in the midst of one of the biggest cities and most diverse cities in America. And the way I've put it is in exploring the city, I would find God in all the places my theology said God wasn't supposed to be.

One of the distinct memories was right down the street from Moodya's Holy Name Cathedral, which is the Roman Catholic cathedral in the heart of Chicag. And we were taught that the Catholic Church was the great whore of Babylon. False teachers, terrible evil.

And I remember going with my Moody peers and sitting in mass and listening to the priest preach the gospel in as clear of terms as any professor at Moody would have done it.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:50

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:07:50

And it was one of those moments where it was like, how have we been demonizing this group of people yet? Now I'm here and seeing it with my own eyes, and it's not what we said it was. These folks are clearly Christians.

And that continued to happen in many other spaces. But the highlight of that period in my life was that when I would go back to campus, I would share these thoughts.

I had a blog and a campus radio show at the time, and I would talk about where I was finding God and questions I was having about our theology.

And six times over four years, I was called into the dean's office and threatened with expulsion because I was talking publicly about doubts and questions and different ways of being Christian. And at Moon, that was seen as dangerous. And it really was. I mean, there's a lot in there that we can get into later in our conversation.

But when I ended up graduating by the grace of God, I had this realization that this movement I was a part of was rooted in fear instead of in love. And First John 4:8 says, God is love, and perfect love casts out all fear.

And for me, that was a moment of questioning how I could be a part of a religious movement that claimed to be rooted in God and yet was so rooted in fear. And the scripture clearly teaches that if God is present, fear cannot be.

And that really led me on a journey to discovering progressive faith and also a coming out journey as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:15

Yeah, yeah. Just to prove I'm a nerd.

For those who weren't aware, somehow last week of recording this, there's an episode of Doctor who came out that was Wish World.

And the whole premise was like, there's a world that was basically created by belief, and the doctor was placed there specifically because they knew his doubts would basically crack. Through the walls of this, like, place that was created with like, if you doubt, you get arrested.

That's kind of like, it was very much kind of a metaphor for that kind of world I think you're talking of. And it's just really interesting to see it being portrayed like doubt as good. And, you know, I'd like to see more of that in our stories.

Brandan Robertson: 00:09:53

Totally.

TJ Blackwell: 00:09:55

So we have you listed as speaking at a couple of high influence places. We've got the White House, msnbc, a couple places you've been and spoken at.

But what are the most common questions you get asked in those higher profile places? Because I don't think the whole church is quite on the level of msnbc. Not yet.

And what do you rarely get asked about that you wish you could talk about more?

Brandan Robertson: 00:10:23

Yeah, I mean, this will seem a little strange because I have a book that comes out today called Queer and Christian, but I get asked most about my sexuality and my faith and how to reconcile those things. And it's actually like a conversation that I'm personally not that interested in anymore.

It was a big deal for me at the beginning of my faith journey and I spent a lot of time studying and trying to help the church understand a different way of understanding the LGBT community and Christianity. But unfortunately, the church is really resistant to change.

And so both in kind of the secular world is still very interested in how Christians like me exist in the church as an openly gay person.

And the conservative Christian world is still very interested in demonizing and trying to expose people like me for not being in alignment with their theology. But honestly, I wish people would ask more about that central principle. I'll probably repeat it 10 more times in this podcast.

But this paradigm of love over fear, it can either sound like some liberal woo woo religious talking point.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:25

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:11:26

Or it can be as I really experience it. It's the foundation of my understanding of the gospel and of my entirety of faith.

And it has psychological implications, it has spiritual implications, it has theological and political implications.

So I would love to spend a lot more time talking about how we, in a culture of fear that we live in right now, learn how to express the radical self sacrificial love that Jesus calls us to embody. And that could look like a million different questions, but that's actually what I'm most passionate about.

And that's why I've given my life to do this.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:01

Yeah, yeah. Would you say just kind of trying to think about this a little bit for myself?

I know inerrancy was a big thing for me, once I get to a point where I was like. Because I kept saying, I'm just going to use anerc. Because I do believe the Bible is. But, you know, I think by inerrancy, we must mean this.

We must mean this.

And at some point, actually listening to Pete was when I was like, oh, yeah, what I'm talking about now is no longer inerrancy, and I have to just drop the label, I guess. And then once I did that, all these other ideas that I care more about became more plausible.

And then it's like, people still want to talk about inerrancy. And I'm like, I get why, because that was a big thing to get me where I'm at now. But that was more like a stepping stone, I guess.

Would you say that was more, for you, coming out as a queer Christian was more like a stepping stone into this bigger thing? And people are asking you about this episode and you're like, okay, but, like, there's a much bigger world out here. Is that.

Is that kind of what you're getting at?

Brandan Robertson: 00:12:52

Yes and no, actually. I mean, I think a lot of people assume that folks like me who are gay. That was probably the reason we deconstructed.

I mean, the way conservatives would typically put it is I just wanted to justify my sinful lifestyle. So of course I changed my theology, but it actually began way before that.

Similarly, I mean, Pete Enns came to Chicago when I was a student at Moody, and I got to hang out with him and, like, was having conversations in those spaces with biblical scholars with real credentials that were not accepted within my evangelical tradition.

We even would, like, take the train out to Wheaton College, which is still conservative, but was a little less conservative than Moody, and sit in and listen to how Bible scholars wrestled with the complexity of what the Bible is. So similar to you.

It was really studying the Bible and understanding that some of the foundational frameworks that I was given as an evangelical inerrancy, even how we talk about inspiration and infallibility, even questions like heaven and hell and salvation.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:53

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:13:54

Being exposed to the broadness of Christian thought around this is actually what set me on a journey to deconstructing evangelicalism. And also then later on helped me be equipped to re engaged the scripture around sexuality and gender.

And it was really probably one of the last things that I came to was affirming LGBT inclusion. First thing was inerrancy.

And I wrestled with that for four years at Moody and similarly came to the conclusion that there's no way inerrancy can be true, at least the way we were articulating it as evangelicals, because scholarship was just too clear.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:32

Yeah, yeah.

So that broadness you're talking about with like Bible and interpretations, beliefs, tradition in the church, history, all that, do you think that we could still use that kind of broadness to better equip people to do what you're talking about with overcoming fear in our world today? What does that look like?

Brandan Robertson: 00:14:49

Yeah, I mean, I think fear is the number one reason why people don't dive into the scholarship that's out there.

I mean, really in evangelicalism we were taught that we were the truth, we had the truth, and everyone else outside of us was deceived, was being used by Satan to water down Christianity. And so, I mean, I think that's really the problem with the way traditional conservative Christianity is articulated is fear is the foundation.

If you have a different opinion on almost any theological matter, you're playing with fire. You're seen as going into enemy territory. That's what keeps people from exploring and expanding their minds.

But it's also the number one reason, I think, why people walk away from faith altogether.

Because when you're taught that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, meaning that every word is scientifically, historically, psychologically, biologically true, and then you take one college level science course or name the kind of course history, you find out that the consensus is not along with the literal interpretation of the Bible.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:01

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:16:01

And people feel very betrayed. They feel like they've been lied to. And a lot of folks just say I can't be a part of Christianity. And I think that's tragic.

And I think that's why progressive Christianity, honestly is so important, because it gives a foundation that's not rooted in these very rigid claims that just can't be justified. And it gives people more space and encouragement to hold a diversity of beliefs and still maintain their faithfulness to Christ.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:26

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I probably consider myself more progressive Christian too. But even without that bit going even back to.

For me it was like that tradition saying, like how Augustine them took those first few chapters of Genesis who were, you know, literal believers of the Bible and how now when we say we believe the Bible literally and inerrantly, what we say is inerrant is not what they read about the text. So if it is so literal and inerrant, why do we have such diversity even in the conservative group? It's like, come on, guys, I don't know.

Brandan Robertson: 00:16:57

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I Think that's also something that we didn't learn in Moody was that like modern theology is modern, like less than 500 years old is the doctrine of inerrancy as it's traditionally interpreted and taught.

And even things like penal substitutionary atonement, the way it's currently conceptualized in your traditional, even mainstream evangelical church, is a new way that the Church Fathers certainly didn't speak about the atonement in that way. And so you see this a lot like in most Christian colleges.

I bet it was certainly true at Moody that as soon as people start reading the Church Fathers, many folks get really enamored.

Lots of folks end up becoming Anglicans or Catholics or other things because they see that there's a broader, even within the tradition framework to hold the faith that doesn't demand this rigid black and white kind of religion that so much of evangelical Christianity demands.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:53

Yeah, just for our listeners, he mentioned penal substitutionary atonement. We do have a whole episode on atonement theories. I'll try to link it below, but that's just kind of different ideas of like, how does salvation work?

What did Jesus do? That means that we're saved now. But if you want to know more, we'll put that link below because that's a whole podcast on its own and then some.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:11

Yeah, P. Denz is one of those names that comes up a lot when you asked people, like, what caused them to deconstruct.

Brandan Robertson: 00:18:19

We love Pete. Pete's awesome.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:20

Yeah, good guy.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:22

But one thing we like to do before we get into the main topic of today's episode, to help our audience and us get to know you better, is the Speed Round segment. This is the challenging part of the show.

We're gonna ask you a series of questions about what you believe and ask that you both try to answer each one in a single sentence. Or you can skip it. We are not allowed to ask you follow up questions. And that's it. That's all the rules. Are you ready?

Brandan Robertson: 00:18:46

Yes. This is gonna get us all in trouble, so be ready. Here we go.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:50

Alright, so who or what is God?

Brandan Robertson: 00:18:54

God is the ground of being.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:55

What is salvation?

Brandan Robertson: 00:18:58

Salvation is the reuniting of humanity to God.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:02

What is the significance of baptism and the Eucharist?

Brandan Robertson: 00:19:06

They are spiritual and physical symbols of the process of salvation. Salvation, Our reunion with God.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:13

What authority does scripture have?

Brandan Robertson: 00:19:16

It is one authority in many authorities and it's a conversation partner that we should engage with but does not get the final word in our faith.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:25

What authority does tradition have?

Brandan Robertson: 00:19:28

Tradition. Similarly Holds a good amount of authority as a conversation partner. And also God still speaks. And so tradition doesn't get the final word either.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:38

Do you believe in a continuation of the gifts of the Spirit?

Brandan Robertson: 00:19:41

Absolutely.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:43

Would you say the initial evidence of the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?

Brandan Robertson: 00:19:49

I think speaking in tongues is available to most, if not all people, but is not a requirement for Holy Spirit indwelling, but is an active gift that can be helpful and build people's faith.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:03

Can God change?

Brandan Robertson: 00:20:05

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:06

What do you love about the Bible?

Brandan Robertson: 00:20:08

I love that the Bible is this mysterious and divine book that has different relevant words for every era and every person that picks it up.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:17

What do you love about the church?

Brandan Robertson: 00:20:19

I love that the church is an ongoing revelation of Christ's presence on earth that also evolves and moves with the Spirit of God and gets to be the power, person and presence of Christ in our world.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:31

Which, if any, of these seven sacraments do you follow? And we can list them off if you need us to?

Brandan Robertson: 00:20:37

I think I would say I follow all of them, but maybe not in a Roman Catholic or even Anglican way. But I think everything from confession to Eucharist to marriage confirmation might be like our church.

I pastor a very traditional church and we do them all. Cool.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:56

All right, so you nailed it. That was great. Media trained.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:59

Yeah, I was a. Yeah, that. The, the speaking in tongues question. I like, I was like watching it. Like, it was like making sure that that sentence did not end.

So like you throw on the butt or. I was like, this is good. This guy got some good, good grades on the English papers. I feel like.

Brandan Robertson: 00:21:17

Actually pretty bad at English, but we are.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:19

Well, your English professor would have been impressed by that.

Brandan Robertson: 00:21:23

Well, thank you.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:24

Maybe they'll go back and amend your grade.

Brandan Robertson: 00:21:27

Please, please. Right?

Joshua Noel: 00:21:29

Yeah, yeah, Everybody. Years later. Oh, man. No, that's good stuff, though.

But one thing that really interests me about the title of your upcoming book and some of the other conversation that you've had was that reclaiming the Bible bit. So the title of the book is Queer and Christian Reclaiming the Bible, Our Faith and Our Places at the Table.

Reclaiming the Bible is interesting because usually it's almost like you see an American flag and you're like, oh, that guy's a Republican. There's no real reason to make that association.

But similarly, when you hear someone's like, Bible in the title of the book, you're like, ah, that's going to be a conservative book, you know? So I don't know. Could you expound some Maybe on like what you mean when you say reclaiming the Bible, why you think it's necessary?

Maybe why we have some of this association of like people who care too much about the Bible are clearly the traditionalist.

Brandan Robertson: 00:22:14

Yeah.

So I'll be a little radical here, but I think that the Bible has been stolen by those in the institution of Christianity and it doesn't belong to them. Every person who wrote the Bible, the community that gave us the Scriptures, were all oppressed minority communities seeking for liberation.

And it's been unfortunate that throughout Christian history, it's been Christians that have aligned themselves with power, that have often been given the authority of Scripture to justify their own power. And yet the constant refrain of Scripture is against systems of authority, both religious and political.

It's always towards empowering the minority voices.

And this book and my kind of mission in my work with LGBT people is to say the Bible is for queer people in the same way that the Bible is for black people and the Bible is for name any liberation theology tradition.

These groups of people that are being oppressed by so called Christians who wield the Bible as a sacred weapon without realizing that the writings of Scripture actually speak against them. Jesus's entire mission and entire ministry was for those on the margins.

It was to liberate the oppressed, to give sight to the blind, to proclaim the year of God's jubilee for all those who are oppressed.

And so this book is supposed to inspire queer people who feel like the Bible is toxic and is no use to them to see that actually the Bible is inherently queer. And we can talk about that.

And also to allies, progressive Christian allies, to say let's stop conceding the Bible and saying it is a traditionalist, conservative thing, they own the Bible. And they're right when they say being gay is a sin, we should just get rid of the Bible. No, they're actually wrong.

And I think honestly, the majority of the witness of the people who wrote the Bible themselves would be more in alignment with the minority communities that are seeking to reclaim it, rather than those with the most power, privilege and wealth that use the Bible as a weapon.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:21

Yeah, yeah. And I know I've heard you mention this before, like the Bible is queer.

And part of what I'm excited about this upcoming book that I've kind of heard that it's not just we're going to show that the Bible's for or against this thing, but it's rather showing places where the Bible is particularly queer.

Could you maybe speak to some of those places or Just kind of like highlight stories that maybe you're going to touch on in that book that when I buy it, I'm going to be like, man, I never thought of that character that way, you know?

Brandan Robertson: 00:24:46

Yeah. I mean, so that section of the book is called the Queer Saints of Scripture.

And it is a section I didn't want to write initially because 10 years ago I would have rolled my eyes even as, like, a new progressive Christian, because I did have a conservative bias, which was, if you try to make a character of the Bible queer, you're just reading some modern liberal lens into the text. And that's not untrue. It is anachronistic to try to apply a modern label to an ancient person. You can't really do that.

Yeah, but I'm in a PhD program for the Bible right now, and I've had this great opportunity to study not just progressive liberal theologians, but, like, robust biblical scholarship.

And as I've done that, it just becomes clear that historically, from a scholarly perspective, so many of the characters that we admire the most in Scripture were queer.

If by queer we're talking about people that are embodying gender and sexuality in ways that don't conform to the expectations of their culture and religion. So folks will be familiar.

I'm not the first person to say, if you go read the story of David and Jonathan in First Samuel, like I really invite folks to do that.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:59

It.

Brandan Robertson: 00:26:00

There's no way any honest person can read that in an English translation and not at least raise your eyebrow and say, what is going on here?

The way that David and Jonathan express love for one another, and the way that the authors of Scripture went out of their way to describe this very deep, intimate, some would say homo romantic relationship at least, is strange in a patriarchal culture. And for me, as a queer person, there's lessons there that if I even just put on a creative lens and imagine, well, what if there is queerness here?

It gives queer people a way to access that story that we've never had before and that all straight people have always had. Because here's the thing, straightforward. You always read the story of David and Jonathan as straight people, and you see yourselves in that story.

And so that whole section, and I do this with Ruth and Naomi, I do it with Joseph, I do it with the Ethiopian eunuch, I do it with Jesus.

Not again, just to be provocative, but actually looking at the ways that each of these characters do things with gender and sex that were scandalous in their culture and ask, what does that invite modern queer Christians to do and how we should be in relation to our faith and how we live out our sexuality and gender in the world.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:17

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then another problem that.

That I just want to point out that I think is really interesting is we tend to brush off the things that we know are very clearly not. What we accept today is like, oh, that was just in history.

And then ignore the stuff that's, you know, that was art of history that we would find weird. I mean, like, so you don't like Jonathan and David? We ignore that because it doesn't fit our lens, and then we just kind of move past.

Like, polygamy is pretty common in the Bible, right? Asexual characters are kind of present a couple different places, and yet we're not. Like, we don't label it that way.

We're just like, oh, that's how it was back then. But if that same thing happened today, we're like, oh, that's lgbtq. And it's like, why can't you do it for this and not for that?

That's the thing, as I'm like, huh?

Brandan Robertson: 00:28:00

Yeah. And that's. I mean, that's exactly what I try to point to the book is that it wasn't like that back then.

Like, even more than conservative Christianity today, Like, for Jesus to be a single, supposedly celibate man in his 30s in a Jewish culture of the first century, that's exceedingly radical. That is not a liberal interpretation. That's radical. And you folks might. You could accuse me of expanding the definition of queer to include too much.

But I would say the way Jesus embodies gender is undeniably queer because it transgresses the expectations of his culture. And.

And if you look at how the early 1st century and 2nd century writers talk about Jesus, they call him a eunuch as a mockery to make fun of him because of how he lived. So clearly he was seen as transgressive, subversive. And what does that mean for queer people? It's an interesting conversation.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:54

Yeah, no, for sure.

TJ Blackwell: 00:28:56

So you recently were on a Good Friend of Ours podcast.

You're on Rethinking Faith with Josh Patterson, and you mentioned that you think progressive Christians can speak better with Christians who are less accepting.

Could you speak to some of what you think may be the best method for having talks about acceptance with Christians from traditions who are more fundamentalist?

Brandan Robertson: 00:29:19

Yeah, I mean, I often say two things. One, exactly as you framed it.

I do think it's incumbent upon progressive Christian allies, meaning not queer people, to be in conversation and to be willing to have these debates because, frankly, you have the energy to do it. And your identity, life, family is not on the line in the conversations. It's very hard. And I'll admit this, like, I'm even getting tired.

And I'm just, this is day one of my book release.

But, like, it's hard to keep showing up and talking and defending myself not in a podcast like this, but, like, I do a lot of conservative debates and it's like, it takes a lot of work.

So I do think allies have a responsibility to do think, take, like the scholarship I bring forward in the book and at least raise questions with conservative folks. But again, I also say debating never actually changes anyone, anyone's mind. The psychological data is pretty clear.

That debate doesn't actually shift people. What shifts people is experience, personal relationships.

And so I would say to allies, one, if you can help create safe spaces where queer people and traditional people can coexist together, those are spaces that transformation is going to happen simply because of the proximity. But also, I want to remind folks that this, the problem isn't six clobber passages in scripture.

The actual problem is the whole way that evangelical traditional Christianity is structured. So the conversation doesn't even have to begin with, what does Leviticus say? We should begin the conversation.

You should begin the conversation with conservative friends around, what do you believe about the Bible and why? And I loved that's how we started this conversation. Because that is the foundation.

If, if we can help show that inerrancy is untrue and that there are better and different and more faithful ways to view the Scripture, that begins to open the doors to interpret the Bible in new ways to adopt more progressive theology.

And so I would just say to folks who want to be good allies, start talking about what the Bible is with folks in your community and maybe force them to listen to Pete N's podcast and we can help actually expand the church a little bit without ever talking about the LGBT issue, so to speak.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:30

Yeah, yeah, no, I know I had a few different issues where because of relationships before time, I was like, I wanted to change my mind, but I grew up conservative Christian and like, certain key things are like pillars, you know, like inerrancy, different things like that, and reading, understanding, making relationships with the people who are writing it who aren't personally involved. And I'm like, well, why do you believe this differently? Because it's not personal to you. And then, I don't know. That helped open my eyes.

Specifically, I like to talk about there's a book that's like the four views of inerrancy, and Pete ends and Dr. Al Mohler are both part of this book.

And one of my favorite things is, like, the other two views, both of them, Al Mohler being the conservative guy going, that's not actually there. And see, And Pete, Ed's going, yeah, guys, that's not inerrancy. Who's part of my going, wait a minute. Maybe I don't believe in inerrancy.

And we just, we have these labels that we think we have to fit into this label. Do you see that? Like, do you think, like, a fear of losing our labels or our community plays a big part of that, too?

Brandan Robertson: 00:32:26

Yeah, because the label is how we belong.

And so, I mean, literally, in most evangelical churches, like, if you're going to be a member, you sign or commit to a doctrinal statement that will use a word like inerrants or penal substitutionary atonement, or name the other conservative doctrine. And so even if folks don't fully comprehend what those things mean, if they hear anybody questioning those words, their alarm bells go off.

And they've been trained that way. That's exactly what's supposed to happen.

But I actually, I mean, I don't want to sound elitist at all, but I just do think that a lot of folks don't understand the theology.

This goes for conservatives and progressives that they hear in church, and they only know the label, and they're willing to die on the hill for a label that they don't actually properly understand. And I am grateful. I think we're living in a moment where there is a revival of interest in theological and biblical knowledge.

We're seeing it all across the Internet, from Jordan Peterson to Dan McClellan.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:24

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:33:25

And I. I think biblical literacy going up will help the church actually become more moderate on a lot of the topics.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:35

Yeah, I think it's really similar to how, like, in the Middle Ages, you know, when illiteracy was the norm, you could only find out about the Bible if you went to church, and you could only understand what they read to you.

And I think it's sort of a similar thing now that we've progressed to the point where most people can read and will read the Bible, but to understand the theological concepts going on, you know, behind the scenes, so to speak, you pretty much have to go to a seminary or at least take the classes on it to really understand what's going on there.

And that's, you know, you're letting it trickle down through the seminaries and the pastors and then you get it and you aren't equipped properly to question that. So you're in church and you're happy in the church. You're going to defend whatever stance it is that your church is supporting.

Brandan Robertson: 00:34:24

Yep, absolutely. And I mean, I'll just say that is what has inspired me to do like my TikTok ministry is just that I saw people were hungry and I.

I mean, I've been privileged, slash cursed to spend way too much money in student loans, getting all this theological education and realizing I never heard any of this in church. And I now have a means in my own world to share what I'm learning in real time with people in the world.

And again, folks like Pete ends, Dan McClellan, all those great folks are doing the same thing. They're literally giving free Bible classes that you would get in a high level seminary to people all across the Internet.

And millions of people are engaging with it, which again shows me that people are tired of being lied to. In an era of fake news, we're tired of hearing half the story.

And I think you're seeing more and more conservative Christians either double down and say all those people are evil and kind of shut their ears and maybe progressives are doing the same, but you see a lot more people in the middle that are saying, like, let me engage the Bible a little bit more robustly and curiously and. And I think that's a net win for everyone.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:31

Yeah, yeah, I'm convinced. If someone just watched all of the reels that P. Dens puts out on Instagram, you basically have a whole course on hermeneutics right there.

Brandan Robertson: 00:35:41

It's great.

TJ Blackwell: 00:35:42

There's your degree.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:43

Yeah. But no, Brandon, I am curious though.

As much as we would like everyone to just see eye to eye, us to reconcile in that way, but let's assume we don't change people's minds over the queer issue. Is there still a way that progressive Christians and those who do not want to be affirming can still work together in other issues?

Or do you think that's like a line where it's like, if we can't meet here, everything else is out the window?

Brandan Robertson: 00:36:09

Yeah.

And this might be a disappointing answer for folks, but I mean, so much of my work over the past decade was in that belief that we could bring folks together.

I spent five years bringing evangelical megachurch pastors together in private closed door meetings with LGBT leaders in hopes that just by building relationships, even if we didn't change their churches that we would, could be able to work together in some issues. I don't think that that actually works anymore. And I'll say the reason is that they're.

The conservative side has their version of orthodoxy and progressive Christians have their orthodoxy. And orthodoxies are meant to be defended. They are hard lines in the sand.

And for many progressive Christians, like, I'm happy to sit down and talk to any conservative and engage in debate with any conservative, but no conservative Christian would actually feel comfortable in a church that I'm pastoring because our hermeneutic, our overwhelming welcome of queer people and other folks that maybe conservative theology would say are sinful. There's just the theological lines don't allow for there to actually be any robust real unity.

And so that's not to say that like on a social justice issue, like if there was a hurricane, that conservative Christians and progressive Christians can't come and serve people that were impacted or serve the poor in some country around the world.

But it is to say that these, there were a lot of churches about five years ago called third way churches that tried to have an affirming pastor and a non affirming pastor on staff and create these kind of middle ground communities. And as far as I'm aware, every single one of them that existed five years ago no longer exist because it doesn't work.

It's two different fundamental paradigms and understandings of what it means to be Christian. And, and so I don't think forced unity is helpful.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:59

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. I find it interesting that as of now, who knows, maybe this podcast will change it somehow.

TJ and I still are welcomed in both orchidoxies. For some reason they're just like, yeah, these guys are still fine for now.

Brandan Robertson: 00:38:18

Until this episode, I promise.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:19

Yeah, yeah, this will change it. This will be the one.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:23

Yeah. Pete Ends was towing the line and we are dancing on it.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:27

Yeah, yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:38:28

And I mean, I just want to say I appreciate folks like you that are in that middle space. But the problem, I'll give just one example, forgive me. I pastor a church that's quite traditional Christian right now.

And we had an elder that was at our church who made it very clear from the first Sunday I was the pastor, that this person did not affirm my sexuality or the views of affirming theology. The rest of our church board did.

And we worked together for two years doing ministry together, really trying to stay together and continue as a church.

But it came down to conservative theology believes that I'm living in unrepentant sin, which means either I'm not saved or certainly not qualified to be a pastor. That is the necessity. That's what the belief necessitates. Like, that is the end of the conservative theological argument.

And so the question became, how do you attend a church with a pastor that you believe is not saved or not qualified to be a pastor? You can't.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:27

Yeah.

Brandan Robertson: 00:39:28

So I just think a lot of the middle ground is hard to hold because if you play the theological argument out to its logical conclusions, they are mutually exclusive. And it's very hard to keep a church together or any kind of community together like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:42

Yeah, I certainly don't think it would work in a local congregation like at all. I really. Part of me thinks, and I'm just getting speculative here, then TJ will make me shut up soon.

But part of me really thinks the only reason that we're able to kind of do this is just because we started this before. A lot of the Donald Trump riff kind of stuff that's happened gotten so much worse.

Like we've been doing church unity so long that now it's like when you attack us, you're attacking like the church unity guys. And that just looks bad.

Like, I feel like that's part of what it is because, like, I've talked to people, you know, I have professors who are still part of the Southern Baptist Church who will come on our show and they know, like, I'll say straightforward. I think the ideas we have about hell or non affirming same sex religion, I think that they're harmful and I don't think that they're Christian ideas.

And they also come on and talk to us about the Bible and other stuff.

And it's like, I really feel like it's just because we, we somehow labeled ourselves as the church unity guys early on enough that it was like, you know, it's like you found the safe spot during Freestag or something.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:38

Yeah, totally. We did do it immediately.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:40

Yeah, just immediately. That's our thing. Yeah, you're safe.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:46

I still believe. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:47

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:47

Irreconcilable pride might be the real issue preventing everyone from unity, but we've always known that.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:54

So, yeah, pride and fear.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:57

Are there any questions that we might have missed that you think people might want to know about you?

Whether that be the cause, the contents of your book, or how to be a better activist for queer spaces, or how to manipulate the algorithm on TikTok to get big?

Brandan Robertson: 00:41:13

I'll answer that one. I have no Clue. And the TikTok algorithm. All of these social media platforms are crazy.

One day you'll post a video that gets two views, and one day, 2 million views. So keep posting is what I'll say if you're trying to make an impact there.

But I think the one thing I'll just want people to hear is that no matter where you fall on this issue, like, I want to affirm the work that you all are doing and say that it is I end my book quoting Jesus's high priestly prayer that we all might be one.

I do think that the goal for all Christians, regardless of where you stand on this or any other ethical issue, should be to be the body of Christ in the world. And when we spend our time demonizing one another, we are letting the world slip away and the kingdom of God not expand.

And so if love becomes the center point and if we actually mean love in a theologically robust way so that it's not just a. A woo woo feeling, but like an action, then a lot of these conversations don't have to be the center point. They can fall to the wayside.

And you can not be debating in your church every week about LGBT inclusion because you're just focused on living out the gospel and trusting that the Spirit of God will do what the Spirit of God does. I happen to believe the Spirit of God will draw people towards inclusion.

But the point is, if love is our highest ideal, if we take Jesus at his word, that all of the law and prophets are summed up, and love God, love your neighbor as yourself, I don't think we can go wrong. And I think the Spirit will take the church where it needs to go.

And so regardless of what you think of anything else I've said or this book or anything like that, maybe we can agree on that. That and trust and experiment with where God might lead us when love becomes the center of our faith.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:54

Yeah, yeah. No, I like that. I think I. I probably put myself at, like 99. Sure that affirming LGBT and our queer neighbors are. Is just the right thing to do.

99.9% even. I don't like to be 100 on anything.

Brandan Robertson: 00:43:10

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:11

But what another thing that I'm fairly certain of. And if you want to believe the Bible, we're gonna reclaim the Bible. It does talk like the Spirit is going to draw us to reconcile.

And also when you're wrong about something or you're living in sin, it's the one that's supposed to convict you. Right. Like, it's not necessarily your job to tell someone else that they're wrong. Let's have these debates. Let's have these conversations.

Let's try to learn and grow. I think that's great. But when it comes to condemning or reconciling, a lot of the times, I think we.

We got to learn to leave that up to the spirit, and that's hard. When TJ talks about our pride and you're like, wait a minute. I don't have pride. I'm too good for that.

Brandan Robertson: 00:43:42

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:43

Guess what?

Brandan Robertson: 00:43:44

Yeah. Amen.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:46

Yeah. Yeah. But, Brandon, one thing we.

We do like to always do on the show is just ask people for a practical action that would help engender unity in the church. And I know early on you were talking about one of your big passions right now is to talk about overcoming fear.

And I do believe fear is a lot of what keeps us from coming together. Do you think there's anything. Anything tangible that our listeners could go do right now?

Like, there's something that could stop and do this moment that's going to help them maybe overcome their own fear? Because no matter where we're at, we all have a little bit of it left. So. Right.

Brandan Robertson: 00:44:15

Yeah, I would say confront it. And the way to do that is to trust that God is most present in and through other people. We are incarnational as Christians.

We believe God became flesh, and I believe God continues to speak through people. So go find the people you're afraid of.

There's this story quickly of a Southern Baptist pastor who used to go to West Hollywood and write his sermons in the gay neighborhood and get to know queer people. And that helped him begin to understand the community in a way that he would never from his church office three miles away.

It doesn't have to be LGBT people, but whoever it is that you're afraid of, go befriend them. Go be among them. Ask God to speak through them. And I believe that experience where two or more are gathered, God is in the midst.

I think that is where real transformation can happen and real change in your own life and in the church and in our world. We don't talk to each other anymore. We demonize one another. Go meet some people.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:10

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:12

What happens if we go meet people? What happens? What does that look like?

Brandan Robertson: 00:45:16

I think witness is what happens. I think stereotypes are shattered. I think our preconceived notions and misconceptions are all done away with. And I think there's a mystery here, too.

I do believe Jesus was speaking of a divine mystery when he says, I am in the midst whenever Two or three are gathered. I think there's something uniquely spiritual that takes place in community, in conversation, in proximity.

And I just know in my life I've demonized people that I've met on the Internet and said I didn't like or thought was harmful. And then I sat down and spent some time with them, and I walked away with a different perspective and a different disposition towards them.

There's probably some psychology in there. There's probably some spirituality in there. I don't know what's all happening.

I just know my heart has changed from pride and arrogance and hatred of others towards love and compassion and empathy. And empathy is not a sin. It's the call of our faith, and it transforms our hearts and minds.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:13

Amen. Hallelujah. Even. Yeah, good stuff.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:16

So before we hit the outro, we do like to do what we call our God moment, and that is just. We ask everyone to share a moment where they saw God recently, whether that be a blessing and a challenge, a moment of worship, what have you.

I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us plenty of time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 00:46:34

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm even going to tie it to our practical action here. I just. I'm very introverted.

So my fear, when I talk about being afraid of other people, it's just other people, just in general, particularly neighbors, because I'm like, man, if they like me and we get along, they could come bother me at any moment. And for me, that just like that hangs over my head. I'm like, I don't know. I want all my friends to be in another state.

They're not going to bother me unless I specifically ask them to. But we were outside, we were just getting our deck together, and the neighbor's wife, this last weekend, it was her birthday.

So their kids are coming in from out of town, all up from, like, New York and whatever, and they're having like a. Like a cookout outside, and we're planting things in pots. And they came over. We're like, hey, you want some tacos?

They're like a Latina family, and they super cool people. I love the. The dad is the one and his wife are the ones who live there. And he's like the plant guy. He knows plants. I love him.

He gives me fresh cilantro every now and then, and it's wonderful. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll get some tacos off the grill.

So I had some street tacos off the grill there Was like five of them, and it was like some of the best food I ever had. And I was like, man, this is great. And just glad I have good neighbors and am also challenged to be more friendly with them as they have been to me.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:58

It's actually. It's actually really annoying to find out.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:02

That I had street tacos, because I didn't know.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:03

I didn't know you had those neighbors. They're great when I was at your house.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:09

Well, come visit. Especially next time they have a cookout. You need to come visit.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:14

Yeah. Thanks for me. You know, they always said if you love something, you should let it go, and if there's meant to be, it'll come back.

That's just a cheesy way to say. I had a really good friend to move to Virginia. We're in South Carolina, if you don't know.

He moved to Virginia a couple years ago, and as of last week, we found out that he is just gonna come back to upstate South Carolina, which is great. The whole friend group still here. It just feels kind of nice.

It's kind of like you remember graduating college and then you're like, oh, wow, all my friends basically don't exist anymore.

Brandan Robertson: 00:48:50

Not for us.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:52

It's pretty awesome, and I'm so thankful for that. It's gonna be pretty sweet. So, Brandon, do you have a God moment for us?

Brandan Robertson: 00:49:02

Yeah, I promise. I'm really not just trying to push this book, but this is what came to mind. I love it. This morning, I was in Barnes and Noble here in New York City.

I was going to sign copies of the book in the store. Normally you sneak in, sign a couple copies, and leave.

Today I did it, and the employee came up to me and she said, hey, I pulled this book off the shelf earlier. I'm a queer person who comes from a Christian background, and, like, I'm just really grateful to know that something like this exists.

And, yeah, we got to have a beautiful little short conversation.

But just to see that being who we are as Christians in the world, as queer Christians in the world, as progressive Christians in the world, really does matter and gives people hope. It was a moment that affirms the work that I'm doing. Yes.

But also as a reminder that, like, God is at work in ways that we will never understand and we just need to keep being faithful and trust. It's making an impact.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:52

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:53

Praise God. One more time. What's the name of the book for those listening and do you have a preferred place for them to go?

Brandan Robertson: 00:49:58

Get it Queer and Reclaiming the Bible, our faith and our place at the table out today. And you can get it anywhere books are sold. But you can go to queerchristian.org and all the links are there.

Amazon, local booksellers, Barnes and Noble, etc.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:13

And I'll have that link in the in the show notes for everybody.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:16

All right.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:16

Thank you, man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:17

Thank you. If you liked. Thank you. If you liked the episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with your enemies. Share with a cousin if you're.

Especially your cousins. If you're listening on YouTube, hit like hit subscribe. If you're not listening on YouTube, thanks. Anyway, I guess.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:34

Most of our listeners aren't on YouTube, teacher. I know, like a vast majority, like literally 99%.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:41

I think that's why I said thanks anyway. Yeah, we love them, too.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:45

For those of you who aren't listening on YouTube, go to the podcast network link in the show notes and YouTube people, I guess you can too. You check out some of the other shows that are in our network. The homily, Patrick Chill Wheels over there.

You have Friday night frights with Christian Ashley, Joe Day, and teacher and I are both part of systematic geekology. It's always a fun time talking about fandom and faith and all that kind of stuff.

Brandan Robertson: 00:51:08

Stuff.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:09

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:09

And we hope you enjoyed it. Next week we're going to be talking with Dr.

Bruce Apperle to discuss charismatic movements and the need for churches that both believe in the power of the spirit and the accepting love of God. Then we're going to have on Brian Wrecker to discuss his Instagram reels on church dogma and his new book, Hell Bent.

After that, we're going to have on Dr.

Leah Robinson, Pastor Will Rose, and possibly Ryan do to discuss the similarities between sci fi stories, apocalypse stories, and eschatology and the church. And finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:39

Yeah, he still doesn't know that, though, so someone has to tell him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:44

The acceptance isn't even pending. The invitation is pending.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:47

Yeah, we are too lazy to send that email, so you guys got to do it for us.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:51

It's a lot of work.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:53

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:59

It.