Bake & Pray: Uniting Through Bread and Faith

Joshua Noel: 00:00:23

First Corinthians 11, 18, 26, and then verse 33 in the Christian Standard Bible. For to begin with, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you. And in part I believe it.

Indeed, it is necessary that there be fractions among you so that those who are approved may be recognized among you. When you come together, then it is not to eat the Lord's supper, for at the meal each one eats his own supper.

So one person is hungry while another gets drunk. Don't you have homes in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What should I say to you?

Should I praise you? I do not praise you in this matter, for I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you.

On the night when he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took bread and when he had given thanks, broke it and said, this is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me. In the same way he also took the cup after the supper and said, this is the cup in the new covenant in my blood.

Do this as often as you drink it in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, welcome one another. In this section of Scripture, St. Paul is condemning the church in Corinth over how they've been partaking in communion.

This church has allowed the supper to become a time of division and a time where the poorer members of the church were being humiliated by by those with more Kendall Vander Slice how should the church today see the elements of the sacrament as unifying for the whole body?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:01:53

Oh man, this is just.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:56

In your opinion, it's fine.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:01:57

church division over the last: 2000

But you know, I think that actually John Calvin said it best.

He identified just what an irony it is that this meal that is meant to be the source of of proclaiming the unity of Christ's body, that we have been made one in the body and blood of Christ, that it becomes actually the source of great division throughout church history.

These questions drawn from these verses in 1 Corinthians 11, this question of how do we keep from eating and drinking judgment on ourselves and partaking of the Lord's Supper has ironically made the meal into the source of great division rather than the source of unification which it is meant to Be.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:41

Yeah, I agree. Hey, guys. Welcome to the Whole Church podcast. I am really excited for today's episode. We're going to be discussing.

We're discussing a lot of stuff, but mostly the book Bake and Pray by Kendall Vanderslice. There is a subtitle to the book, but my brain is lagging.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:03:05

Liturgies and. Liturgies and recipes for Baking Bread as a Spiritual Practice.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:09

How could I forget that? That's such a good subtitle. I love it.

And part of why I'm so excited, this episode is going to be specifically dedicated to my mother, who is also a patron, Sandra Knoll. I love you, Mom. You're great. I got her this book back last December for Christmas. She did some of the preliminary reading.

She hasn't started the recipes yet because she's really kind of breaking through some of the stuff that's in the beginning of the book, learning about some of the theology, some of what is liturgy, because the church I grew up in that she still attends doesn't do liturgy. So I think some of that stuff is. She's taking piece by piece, but she's really enjoying it.

And then that got me interested, and then I was like, I'm not like my mom. I am going back and reading the theology stuff. I was like, let me start with recipes, because I just love food, man.

And then I go back and read it because I need to understand the practices because I don't know, stretch and pull or anything about bread, it turns out. And, yeah, it's been a wild ride. And I'm so excited to be here with the author, Kendall Vanderslice.

She is a baker, a writer, and a scholar of both food and theology. Kendyl, thank you so much for joining me. Do you prefer Kendall, Chef Vander Slice? Does it matter?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:04:18

Kendall. Kendall is great.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:19

Okay, great, great. Thank you so much for joining us.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:04:22

Absolutely. It's a delight to be here. Thank you for having me.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:24

Yeah. Yeah. And I really can't even starting. I need to do the rest of the intro stuff.

But even starting with, like, the recipes, I just gotta let you know, like, each recipe even has, like, kind of, like a backstory to it. And.

And since I started in, like, Easter time, I'm going through, like, a Ukrainian recipe, which right now, giving thanks with a Ukrainian recipe seems particularly poignant in our time and culture. And I was like, this is so cool. Going through, like, the background, all that, like, oh, this is great. But I digress.

This is why TJ does the intro, because I can't stay on point.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:05:01

No worries.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:02

I'm just to convince you guys to listen to other shows on Anzel podcast. Network 1 I'm going to be on that's going to be a limited time run or a seasonal one is going to be turning the page on Divine Violence.

So we're starting with that. If it becomes seasonal, we'll do other books.

So starting with one book, we'll do other books and it'll be turning the page on whatever topic from the other books. So that's another show on the network. There's also Systematic Ecology that has TJ and I on it.

And TJ and I both have guested on the show Kung Fu Pizza Party recently, which is another show on the network. So if you guys want to hear more of us or just see what else is in the network, there is a website attend the link below stuff.

This is the best I can do it reading TJ's parts, guys, just bear with me. So if you're listening to our show on Captivate or if you just have access to Captivate, there is a place to leave a one time tip.

So if you're not into subscriptions or Patreon or any of that and you just want to support the show, you can do a one time tip on Captivate there. That link should also be in the show notes. I write the show notes so I should know what's in there, but I don't. So take that for what you will.

And back to the stuff that I like to talk about. There's a holy sacrament of unity on this show, which is silly because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be.

And for some reason TJ just keeps letting me do this in all of our episodes, even though we have like really cool guests now. And he could be like, Josh, we're. These people are too serious for this. And he just hasn't stopped me.

I don't know, if your favorite TV character were to bake bread, what kind of bread do you think they would bake? If you want, I can answer first, but I forgot what the silly question was this week and I'm like, man, that's a good one.

And I'm trying to think because I'm not. Oh, wait. Actually, okay, I'm pretty sure I do. I'm in between two different people for my favorite character.

One of them definitely would never be able to bake bread. So I'm gonna ignore him. I'm gonna go with the Doctor from Doctor who. And currently I Have a. The doctor is Churigawa, who.

They're showing a little bit more of his blackness in his character, which is really cool. So I'm thinking maybe we'd get, like, one of those Kenyan breads, I think. Isn't there. Is there a recipe in your book from Kenya?

I feel like there was.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:07:17

There's an Ethiopian bread.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:19

Ethiopia. Okay. That's what I probably was thinking of, actually. I think Kenya is where I had some. This is Epcot Disney. There was a really good barbecue.

That was Kenya. I think that's what my brain's confusing with.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:07:30

Okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:30

But either way, like, I feel like it's going to be something like that. It's probably a little bit of spice in it. It's gonna be good, and I'm gonna enjoy it. That's what I think.

I think he'd probably actually be a pretty good chef. If I would have got David Tennant, my favorite doctor, I might be in trouble. But I think since, you know, the current doctor seems.

He seems a little bit more artistically inclined, and I'm gonna assume that it's going to reach into culinary arts as well. I'm hoping. Kendall, what about you favorite TV character? What kind of bread are they baking you?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:08:00

The person that came to mind, it was hard to choose a favorite TV character, but a character that I thoroughly enjoy and really liked imagining getting into bread is Schmidt from New Girl. And I think he would go straight to, like, croissants or. I feel like he would get really into sourdough.

He would get into the sourdough, and he would go to the extreme, and he would be like, you know, have to get everything perfected. And that's what I think he would do.

Or maybe the croissants, he would just go all out and, you know, creating his own butter block and making sure he gets them.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:32

Yeah, yeah. I feel like he'd even grow, like, the. Like, the haloball bar, mustache, everything. Like, I feel like he would go really ridiculous.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:08:39

Yes, he would. He would.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:40

That's a great show.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:08:41

It is. It is.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:43

That's a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I'm just, like, imagining these scenarios. I want. Listen. TV producers just need to listen to our podcast so I can.

I can see these things happen, but under more of the real show stuff. One thing we've seen that really helps with unity. Since our church, our podcast is primarily about Christian unity is to hear one other story.

So we were hoping that you could share with us some about your faith journey, getting to where you are now. And maybe some about the faith community you're plugged into these days.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:09:11

Yeah, so I grew up in the church. My grandfather was a pastor. I have several uncles and cousins who were all pastors.

So in many ways, kind of not just the Christian faith, but even, like, theological discussion was a part of family life all growing up. And so in some sense, there's always been a cure. Curiosity around faith and openness to asking questions and to dialoguing and to disagreeing.

You know, I remember many holiday tables where we had theological. Intense theological conversations as just part of the Christmas dinner conversation.

And I'm really grateful to have grown up in a context like that with, you know, very thoughtful family members who disagreed with one another and modeled how to disagree. Well, but so I grew up largely in churches that were not liturgically inclined in any capacity. And so, you know, I.

For me, I was introduced to liturgy in college, and I was at a point where I loved the Lord deeply, but also felt a lot of anxiety in my faith. I think. You know, I'd been taught that you, you know, you pray the sinner's prayer that you become a Christian, and then there's kind of this, like.

And then what? There was this ongoing anxiety of. Of, like, wanting to live rightly, but then always sort of feeling like, you know, is there anything more to this?

And am I actually in God's good graces? And how do I. Like, if I'm not emotionally experiencing God in worship, then am I on the right track?

And so I was in this place in college where I just was feeling very unmoored. And there was a lot of anxiety, you know, within some of the church communities that I was in, about, like, making sure you're.

You're listening, listening to God rightly, and giving yourself over to God enough. And. And there was no real sort of grounded sense of how do I. How do I know God's presence in these very tangible ways?

And so I was introduced to the Anglican tradition, to the concept of liturgy, to these ideas that, you know, we have these words, we have these rhythms, we have these practices that the church has been rooted in for thousands and thousands of years. And the sacrament of communion is one of those.

And that this is a way in which God is present with us in this deeply tangible way, and we can know and trust God's presence whether or not we feel it, because every single week we go forward and we receive this bread and we receive the cup.

And that was just deeply meaningful to me in that season and really transformed the ways that I thought about my faith and the ways that I understood my own location as a baker. I wanted to become a baker from an early age. So by the time I was in college, I was fully planning to go on and work professionally in bakeries.

And so then when this added piece of, oh, this bread is actually central to my worship as well, it really began to change things for me.

So I started to question, you know, what does this bread that I spend my morning baking have to do with this bread that I receive at the communion table every single week?

And that just launched a whole line of theological questions that took me down the path, path that I have been on for the last, you know, 12 years now. And so I am still a part of the Anglican Episcopal tradition. The liturgy is still deeply meaningful to me.

The Eucharist is still, for me, central to everything. But I. I have the great joy of baking bread and talking about bread with Christians from all different backgrounds.

And so really seeing the ways that this bread can be a point of. Of unity and connection between us despite our many theological differences.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:01

Yeah, yeah, just follow up on that a little bit and get into the book. So bake and pray. One of the really interesting things to me, I'm trying to find a way to word this.

I'll talk about some of the stuff that I get from other people. Right. So we have another podcast that we're a part of, Systematic Ecology, that I mentioned earlier. And it's like faith and fandom kind of thing.

And a lot of times people hear you, like, tying two things together and immediately assume, okay, so this means, like, super evangelical, probably Southern Baptist.

You know, like, they have this, like, preconceived notion because there's a certain brand of church that tend to try to fit everything into the square peg hole kind of thing, you know? You know, and they're like, oh, this must be what this is. And we're like, actually, no, we're not doing that at all.

We're asking what the fandom's asking and, like, trying to engage honestly. But because I guess Christianity as a whole has been branded as this for trying to make everything about Jesus all the time.

Sometimes people just see something and assume that's what you're doing and that there's not a real connection there. And I think that's why the subtitle actually is really important, because you include the word liturgy.

And that's what made my brain go, wait a minute, this probably isn't that cookie cutter thing. This is probably a little bit more.

And then I Heard you, I think, speaking with Caitlin Chess on one of the Holy Post things, because I love all their stuff. We've had Caitlin Chess on the show before too, and she's probably one of the coolest people I've talked to. Just like, personality wise.

I'm like, I wish you weren't so famous because I think we could be friends.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:14:34

She is a good friend of mine.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:35

Yeah, she's great. Yeah. Well. But yeah.

So do you ever get any of that stuff where people are like, oh, hey, they kind of just assume you're trying to make it fit instead of looking into it and seeing, wait a minute, maybe there is more here.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:14:48

Yeah. A lot of people at first are like, what food and faith? What in the world do those have to do with one another? Or bread and faith?

What in the world does that have to do with one another? But usually as soon as I say, well, you know, there's a table at the center of Christian worship and it is set with bread. Bread and wine.

Then like that. I mean, I think that helps people go like, oh, yeah, I guess there is a clear connection there. And maybe I haven't really kind of dug into it enough.

And then they'll start to go to like, oh, yeah, Jesus is the bread of life. And, you know, they'll. They'll start to think of some of those connections.

And usually that's an opportunity for me to say like, hey, maybe bread shows up so many times in scripture, like, not just because it's some sort of ordinary metaphor, but because there's something significant to bread itself.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:33

Yeah. Which actually ties in. So I've recent convert to Lutheranism and I'm trying to think of the word. I became Lutheran like a year ago.

Started dining a little bit before then, but I grew up Pentecostal. And so now that I'm Lutheran, I get to claim the whole Satan center line. You know, we get to claim that now.

One of the things I really loved in your book reading, I think it was probably in the preface or one of those early chapters that I originally skipped for recipes that they went back to. But you talk about. And my mom, I think, mentioned this as well.

Bread plays a part in the curse of Genesis when it talks about how we're going to work the fields. And it also plays a part in the redemptive work of the church in the gospel accounts. Whenever we talk about Jesus with the communion.

Could you unpack for us a little bit how you believe breaking bread can remind us both of our brokenness and of God's Promises or how we're saints and sinners, as Luther might say.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:16:28

Yeah, absolutely. So the first place that bread appears in the Bible is in Genesis 3, verse 19.

And so at this point in, you know, in the book of Genesis, we've had the creation accounts, we have this narrative of, you know, God created these gardens filled with beautiful trees and fruits and placed the humans in the garden and tasked them with the care of creation. And then they were nourished by the fruits of these trees.

And of course, we know they were told to avoid the fruit, avoid one tree, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And here in Genesis 3, we are learning that they did not. They did not forego that temptation.

And now we are learning the ramifications of this fall, learning the ramifications of their, you know, the fact that they ate of this. The fruit of this tree.

But so prior to this point in Genesis, humanity has not really been involved in the production of the food that they consume, right? They just get to pluck from the tree and eat. And what part of the curse of Genesis 3 is that?

The soil will sprout forth thistles and thorns, but it's by the sweat of your brow that you will eat your bread. And this.

This bread that is first introduced in Genesis 3:19, it requires an incredible amount of work to grow wheat and harvest wheat, to thresh it, grind it, turn it into flour, to turn that flour into dough, gather firewood, to heat up an oven before finally baking that bread and being able to eat it. This is nine months or more of labor that is required in order to consume this food.

And yet this food, bread, contains most of the nutrients that humans need in order to survive. We actually can live off of just bread and water alone for a very, very, very long time.

And so the bread historian, William Rubel, kind of draws on this, this imagery of Genesis 3, and he says that from the dawn of agriculture has been a simultaneous blessing and curse on humanity. It contains the nutrients that we need in order to survive.

We can live off of bread alone, but also in the production of bread, we are reminded that the world is not as it's meant to be. And yet also, I think there's this beautiful juxtaposition that here in Genesis 3, you know, God is.

Is sharing with us the ramifications of this fall, and yet also offering us this gift of bread and inviting us to be participants with God in the transform, transformation of creation into something beautiful, something delicious, something nourishing. And so in that way, bread is this constant reminder of yes, bread is.

It came to be because of the brokenness of creation, and yet also it is this gift that's. That is made possible by God in the midst of the brokenness of this creation.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:18

Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful stuff. I'm trying to decide if I want to do this. I'm going to do this.

I'm going to delve into a little bit of a biochem nerdery and our listeners will just forgive us. One of the things that you bring up that's really interesting too is, and I'm going to call this Tolkien esque, because I love JRR Tolkien.

And for those who don't know, he does explicitly say that Lord of the Rings is not about World War II, but is about the dangers of industry. So there you go. One thing that you bring up that's really interesting is how many people have developed this allergicness.

I can't think of the word sensitivity.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:19:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:57

And that part of the book was really interesting.

And then as someone who was studying nutrition for a while and some of that kind of like biochem stuff, you know, I know that a lot of your carbs and stuff can produce more of that ldl, vldl kind of cholesterol, that's really bad for you.

But from my understanding, baking it yourself, some of this process that you talk about, if we're doing it that way, instead of the incredibly industrialized looking at you, Sauron. Sauron baked you bread, you're in trouble, you know?

Whereas if you get in the Shire, maybe it won't be so bad because, like, they're actually doing it by hand and we're doing it more naturally, I guess. Could you maybe speak to some? Because, like, to some people that probably sounds like craziness and just like conspiracy theories or something, but.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:20:34

Yeah, yeah.

So the production of bread historically has been a very, very long process that in order for the yeast to ferment the dough and transform the starches in the dough into, you know, the yeast will eat the starches naturally present in the dough, and in the process they'll release carbon dioxide that gets trapped in this protein network called gluten. That is what ferments and grows our dough.

And this transformation, this long, slow transformation, is also what provides flavor to the dough and it's what unlocks nutrients in the wheat that allows our body to digest them. So a little over a century ago, we were able to isolate what it was that was causing this transformation. Right.

So like prior to kind of Louis Pastor, essentially, we didn't really know what it was that was causing fermentation. We knew that if you mix together wheat and water for a while, you'd get either beer or you'd get bread.

We knew that if you mixed grapes, you know, and smashed them and left the juice out, that it would ferment into something delicious. You know, we knew that this process of fermentation happened, and we had a name for that transformation, leaven.

But we didn't know what creatures were responsible for it.

And so in the last little over a century, we were able to isolate what creatures those were and then able to kind of separate them, dehydrate them, and get this dried yeast that we could then add into our dough.

We realized we could add the yeast, and then we could add in a bunch of sugar that the yeast could eat really quickly, and we could have bread from start to finish in a matter of a couple of hours.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:07

Yeah.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:22:07

The other thing about bread is that it is a very physically involved process. Our bodies, our hands have to get in there in order for, you know, us to. To ferment or to m the dough.

And then that's also what introduces some of this bacteria and yeast into the dough that. That ferments it and rises it.

And so a little over a century ago, there was this great fear of bacteria, great fear of the body's ability to contaminate. And so industrial bread was developed to try and protect us from these contaminants of our bodies and this yeast.

And so there was this big marketing campaign about how you could have a loaf of bread that was never touched by a pair of human hands.

And it turns out that when you make bread really quickly, when you don't let it, when you don't introduce this deeply human element and bacterial element, then it's really hard for our bodies to digest. It does not transform the wheat in a way that we can assimilate the nutrients.

And also our body recognizes it as something harmful and kind of attacks us in response.

And so, you know, we have all these different sensitivities to wheat that have arisen in this past century, and I think it is largely because of the way that we produce our bread. So most people that are reacting to wheat, outside of those who have celiac disease, that's a different thing that.

That is, you know, something separate. But aside from that, most people who are reacting to wheat are actually reacting to the starches in the wheat rather than the protein, the gluten.

And it is through a long fermentation that those starches get Broken down into a way that our bodies can digest. And it's a completely different experience of bread.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I call her my God sister. It's like my parents goddaughter.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:23:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:55

But she has celiacs and a very serious case.

You know, I don't want to underplay that, but, yeah, it is interesting how much we just associate things and we do that correlation, causation, fallacy kind of deal where we're like, oh, it must be the gluten. It's like, well, actually, there's a lot of other stuff in bread that it could be. You know, that could be.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:24:13

It is largely the process by which we make it. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:17

Also, I am now incredibly tempted since I have a friend who works on a Tolkien Society journal that I'm like, I wonder if I can convince him to let me write an article. What if Sauron baked bread?

That's for another time, but for now, I do want to kind of get into some of the original inspirations for the book or maybe some of why you chose the specific breads that you did.

Because I know, or I'm sure you have plenty of other recipes you could have included, but it seems like you were really intentional, the ones that you did put in the book. So could you talk some about the inspiration for the book and then the specific recipes you chose, maybe?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:24:53

Yeah, absolutely. So the book is based off of a workshop that I teach called Bake and Pray. I started developing this workshop about 10 years ago.

I have been teaching it in churches, schools, retreat centers all over the country ever since.

But as I was beginning to work on this book, I realized, oh, I can really kind of elaborate on the theme themes of this workshop in a way that not just teaches people how to bake bread or how to bake bread as a spiritual practice, but helps them understand more fully what it means for bread to be the central element in Christian practice.

And so the first half of the book is focused on kind of lessons in baking bread and introducing the concept of baking bread in the form of a liturgy rather than a recipe, so using it as a prayer practice. But then the second half of the book includes recipes to bake all throughout the liturgical year.

And so my hope was to introduce readers to the concept first of the liturgical year. This is, you know, Christians throughout all of history have kind of told time through the story of the Christian faith.

And so the liturgical year begins in the season of Advent, when we are awaiting Christ's first coming and also Christ's return, which leads us to Christmas, where we celebrate Christ's first coming and then Epiphany, which is the recognition of the welcoming of the Gentiles into the people of God and the visit of the Magi to the baby Jesus. And then we have the season of Lent, which leads us into Easter.

And then finally we have the All Saints, which is the kind of Halloween, the reminder of saints throughout all of history.

And so what I wanted this book to do is both kind of narrate the story of this Christian story through the liturgical year, but then also show how bread has been. How bread is significant to Christians all around the world and throughout history through a variety of Christian traditions.

And so the breads that I chose to include are breads that represent a wide swath of Christians around the world, a wide swath of traditions, both Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic, many different geographic areas, and then all of these different seasons as well. And so it was really fun exploring the different. Many different breads.

You know, I had to really, like, weed out and decide specifically which ones I would include. But just so fun to be able to tell these stories through the breads that mark these days.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:22

Yeah, yeah. Just out of personal curiosity, so we go from Eastertide to All Saints Day. Why didn't we include any, like, Pentecost breads?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:27:33

So I was interested in that, and I just couldn't find any breads that were particular to Pentecost.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:37

That's a really good reason.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:27:39

Yeah. So that was originally. That was supposed. Supposed to be in there, and I just couldn't find any specific Pentecost breads.

So instead, you know, the liturgical, like, the seasons go from. From Easter tide, you have ordinary time before you get to Advent again. And so the prayers through the church here are supposed to be the.

The ordinary or the prayers for every occasion. They're supposed to be the ordinary time.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:01

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I am. I'm not sure if I want to wait till the All Saints Day part of the year to start the.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:28:09

They are really good bread. I recommend them any time of year.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:12

These look great, especially because it seems like you included more Latino kind of culture. And I'm like, I love their food.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:28:20

Yeah. The guagua de pan, the Ecuadorian All Saints bread. Those are delicious. I highly recommend doing the dulce de leche in the inside. They're so good.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:28

Okay, so should I. Do I have to wait? Can I just, like, go ahead and.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:28:32

No, you can do them anytime. You can do them anytime.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:35

I honestly, I almost started your book during Lent and then I was like, like, lint feels bitter. I'm gonna wait till Easter.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:28:43

That's a good time to do it.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:44

Yeah. But I'm kind of sad that I did, though, because the only Easter one that I didn't do, it's because I'm gonna wait till next year.

I think you have the hot cross buns, which I think you said were traditionally done. Was it Good Friday?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:28:56

On Good Friday, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:57

And I waited till after Good Friday and I was like, I'm hit it next Good Friday. I'm gonna make sure I get it done. But there you go. Yeah. No, so the three that I actually was able to do, my co host did a couple of the other ones.

I'm going to talk to him separately a little bit. So we can just have our own little pow wow about the recipes. And I'll either edit it in or we'll do a special thing for our patrons or something.

I don't know. Sometimes I get spontaneous. I don't know what I'm doing on this. They shouldn't let me have a mic, but it's fine. So I did the pasca.

I might be saying all of these incorrectly, so feel free to incorrect me. I do a lot of reading and then I never know how to pronounce words because I don't talk to people. I just read books. Pinka and then the defo dabo.

Okay, sweet. I think the pinka might be. Is that the. It's like a sweeter bread. Yeah, this is it.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:29:47

Yeah. That's the Croatian bread.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:48

That might be my favorite bread I've ever tried. And I was like, wait a minute, I made this. This is weird.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:29:55

It is delicious.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:57

So I think I did something wrong. This is. I'm not supposed to do this probably, but I'm just gonna talk on Annalier about this. So I think.

I mean, so I did the pinka and defo dabo at the same time. And in the very center. It was still a little raw. Is that potentially. Because I cooked them together in the oven. Should I have done it separate?

Is that what I messed up?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:30:15

I think no, it's fine to cook them at the same time. I think they just could have cooked for a little bit longer.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:19

Okay, well, that's a simple. That's a simple fix. And I'm definitely gonna make. Especially the pig. I'm definitely gonna make that again.

I even said whenever I made it, like, I had my wife try some and she made her friend try some. And I was like, I'm pretty sure whenever we have Like Thanksgiving or the next, like, big family thing.

I'm gonna bring this giant thing of bread and be like, guys, I. I did this.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:30:38

Yes, you should. You should show it off. It's good stuff.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:41

Yeah. And I'm gonna put a picture up on our Instagram or something of it, too.

The only thing, like, visually that I think I mess up on, I underestimated the cutting. So I cut a little too deep, because in my mind, I'm like, this is just gonna. Cause you know, when you poke it, it bounces back.

So I'm like, that's just gonna, like, fill the thing in it. And I just didn't.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:30:59

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:00

And I was like, oh, I guess I don't need to cut that deep. Yeah. Which. You wanna talk about that. Cause the pink is like. It's like a really big roll, basically.

But it's got the three lines that you cut in it that are supposed to be representative of the Trinity. Could you maybe elaborate on that specifically? I know that's like, a really specific part of your book, but.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:31:18

Yeah. So, I mean, one of the fun things in this book was seeing a lot of the similarities between different breads that arise in different places.

And so several of them had kind of traditions of how you would score them for different kinds of meanings. And so the pinka, there are several different. Different sort of iterations of the pinka.

So I did the simplest one for this, which is just a circular bread, and you score it with three lines that are meant to represent the three parts of the Trinity. And so. But there are other kinds of designs that are oftentimes used for these as well.

And all of them have various kinds of theological significance.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:54

Yeah. Yeah. That was really cool.

There's so much I love and I could dig into, and I do have limited time, so I'm trying to be choosy of what I want to talk about. I'm going to just say, just to put the little blurb out there.

One thing I find really interesting, just in general, is just speaking to the image of God and stuff, as we've done podcasting in general, because, you know, I love hiking and stuff. Our listeners might be aware.

And sometimes you see that in the Bible and then you definitely see the nature, like God's goodness, and you speak to that and then talk to someone who's passionate about baking. And I'm reading this book and I'm like, wow, it makes so much sense that you see God in this.

And if you talk to TJ about ping pong, of all things, it's like, you're like, wait a minute, you're crazy. And then he starts talking and you. And you're like, okay, I totally get why, for you, ping pong is a spiritual practice.

And you talk about baking as a spiritual practice.

Not just like, we're baking the bread and there's significance in the bread, but like the practice itself as like a prayer while you're kneading the dough kind of thing. Did you want to speak any more on that before we did anything else?

Because I know that was like a really big part of your book is just how it is a spiritual practice.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:32:55

Yeah. I think one of the greatest lessons that bread can teach us is the significance of.

Significance of rest, that bread does not become bread without rest. And there is a lot of rest intertwined in the entire process of baking bread.

And I think oftentimes, especially in American culture, we are just really bad at rest.

We oftentimes approach rest from this mindset of, like, maybe I'll do it, but before I, like, hit the places, or maybe even when I hit the place of total burnout. But the whole time I'm resting, I'm just thinking about all the thing that's. All the things that aren't happening when I rest.

And so we treat rest as something that is maybe even a little bit irresponsible or maybe it's a reward when we finally gotten our work done, not as something that is integral to our daily lives, but God both commands us and also invites us to rest. And that is because I think rest is necessary and transformational in our daily lives.

And so bread is at every turn of the bread baking process, it is reminding us of the importance of rest.

That bread hopefully kind of flips our paradigm to help us question, you know, if the bread does not have rest, it does not become bread, which then can encourage us to question, okay, if I do not rest, rather than thinking about all that's not getting done when I'm taking the time to rest, I think we ought to imagine what is not getting done in me and through me when I don't take the time to rest. And so these, this baking bread as a prayer practice is meant to help invite.

Invite bakers and readers into the practice of rest and through the process of baking bread, inviting them into these reflections and to understand how their.

Their very movements of their body can be a form of prayer and that God can be present with us in this deeply tangible way through something like baking bread.

And my hope is that those who go through this prayer Practice in this book might also begin to see the ways that their other hobbies and activities are also opportunities for prayer. Maybe potters or gardeners.

Those are the ones who I hear from most often who read the book and are like, this has changed how I go through my pottery practice or my gardening practice. But I think that can extend to so many other practices as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:10

Yeah. Yeah, well.

And that's, that's one of the things that did stand out to me, maybe in kind of a weird way, because I remember reading this and, like, you're talking about rest and me looking at it, and I'm like, wait a minute. And, you know, I cook for a living. And like, baking, that's cooking. Cooking. Cooking is work. What do you mean?

The more I thought about it, my version of rest. And as an ADHD person, I'm particularly challenged on this because I pretty regularly get criticized for not resting.

But I'm like, you guys don't understand for me sometimes what rest looks like is I'm walking three hours up and down the beach while also listening to a podcast that I have to edit, making mental notes because that's a place that I feel comforted. And I understand for everyone else, they're like, wait a minute, you. You walked for three hours and you. That's awful.

And I'm like, no, no, I, I find rest in that, though. And like, for me, like, what TJ does with ping pong, I'm like, this is like, athletic.

Like, I have to put so much effort to just not let him defeat me in, like 30 seconds. And I'm like, what do you mean this is rest?

But now, like, like reading how you're talking about with baking and then putting it together with, like, how I've been criticized as an ADHD person, and then thinking about, about, like, DJing, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Rest isn't always what we picture.

It's not always literally sitting beside the river of waters where God's giving us rest on the, you know, it's like, sometimes God's given me that rest can.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:36:33

Be an active thing sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and for me, too, this, this book came out of my own work in the professional, you know, restaurant industry, where baking for many years was not rest.

Baking was a form of great stress that the approach you kind of have to have to in order sustain a bakery or a restaurant is to fill in every single second that, you know, time is like Tetris, where you can't let a single second go to waste and you have to, you know, fill every single moment. And it is exhausting and it is taxing. And so baking is not always a form of rest, and for me, definitely has not always been a form of rest.

But this practice has helped to reform me, I think, as a baker, in the ways that many years in that industry kind of deformed me and took away my love of baking.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:25

Yeah.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:37:25

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:26

That's awesome, though. Well, awesome that you refound it. Not that it, you know, I think, you know.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:37:31

See, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:33

So I did want to touch on one other thing and we kind of talked about it a little bit, but I want to dig a little bit deeper into this other cultural aspect of it, like the different backgrounds in the bread. I'm going to tie this in. Kind of weird, but there's a book I've really enjoyed that I probably no one knows about. It's called Insider Jesus.

I can't remember the author's name, which is awful. But it talks about how in all these different cultures around the world, there's certain places where the name Christian doesn't mean the same thing.

It might to us. Like, in some cultures, Christian is just, those are the people who come to kill us, or those are the people who come to do this and people.

So you'll have, like, groups in the book that are like, they call themselves, we're Muslims for Christ, or we're, you know, this for Jesus. Or, you know, they have different names, but they're following Jesus.

They believe in salvation, but they still take some of these old religious practices is. And kind of incorporate them into their Christianity. And at first I was like, I don't like this.

And then the book points out, hey, that's all Christianity started as. Right? Like, we took these Jewish practices and when we think about, like, communion, that was taking the Passover meal and making it Christian.

And I, you know, since we directly come from Judaism, it's a little bit more stomachable. But I think that's actually an important thing across the board. That's something that that book made a case for.

I don't think you're making that case as far as, like, religions go, but as far as, like, some of these cult, like, it is important that we take something.

Like, for me, it was so meaningful to bake that Ukrainian bread during Easter time, thinking about, like, the world we live in right now and the challenges that people in Ukraine are actually facing right now. And I'm going, wait a minute, here I am able to celebrate this culture through Food that's really on the verge of maybe not existing anymore.

You know, like, it's like this is really deeply meaningful.

And I don't know, maybe something about how we do communion should reflect these things in our culture or when we're doing our meals, we need to think about, like, our own heritage, that kind of stuff. Could you speak to, like, why was that important for you to include in the book and kind of like maybe some of your thoughts on the same stuff?

Because I feel like I just rambled.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:39:35

Yeah, yeah, well, so our food always tells stories that, you know, every ingredient that we use has a story behind it and how it arrived and the places that it did to create the different cuisines that exist. We can tell kind of the story of human history through various kinds of food, foods.

And so part of what I wanted to do with these breads was to help tell the story of how Christianity arrived in and sort of took form in all of these different locations. Because the spread of Christianity is in some ways, in many places, the spread of, you know, it is the spread of something good.

And also in many ways it was coupled together with the spread of harm as well.

And so wanting to be able to use bread to tell an audience honest story about both the beauty of our faith and also the pain that's oftentimes intertwined with the background of our faith. And so that was part of what I was wanting to do with this.

But another piece that's at play is that, you know, so many of these traditions took root in locations like oftentimes, I think Christians, especially from more of an evangelical background, tend to be critical of some aspects of the liturgical calendar and of some of these holidays, thinking about kind of their pagan roots. And so I wanted to help reframe some of those stories to help understand what Christianity looked like as it took root in these places.

And so, so many of these traditions, Christian traditions are built around, I guess you could say, quote unquote, like pagan practices or pagan ways of telling time. But that's because in a pre industrial society, these are just the ways of telling time. Time, right.

You observe the movements of the sun and the movements of the moon. And this is how you are able to tell the. Locate yourself in time, which is necessary for agriculture.

And so these pre industrial societies, like when, when you are telling time and you are, you are like remembering history through these movements of creation, then if you like, your religious context then gets sort of woven into that as well. And so as Christianity arrived in different locations, then they continued in this way of telling time.

But instead of having these, like, you know, pagan stories to go with it, there became. It became a way of telling the story of the Christian faith. And so I wanted to kind of help reframe, I think, how.

How Christians sometimes think about both liturgical history and how it connects with the. The roots of the places that it's in. In us understand and be more generous to and sympathetic to.

I think our ancestors in the faith, who lived in a very different context than we did and have passed on this beautiful tradition that helps tell the story of the region and also the story of the faith as it kind of arrived in that region.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:38

Yeah, yeah. I.

We talked a little bit about communion earlier, and that's one of the things that really makes the bread thing so interesting to me growing up, the context that I did. And I don't want to make this marks of division.

I have a lot of opinions on how I think communion should go, and I'm sure so many other people do, too, but I've come to appreciate other contexts. So for me, personally, I would prefer when we take communion to be a bitter wine, because it's supposed to remind me of the death of Jesus.

But I've heard context where they're using a sweeter wine. It's supposed to be because that sweet victory we have in Jesus. And I'm like, like, okay, I prefer that bitter thing.

I think that's what it's supposed to be. But I still see that there's significance. There's, like, why you did that makes so much sense to me, and that's beautiful.

But I think growing up where it was, like, so many times you would get the prepackaged little grape juice with a cracker on top, you know, and, like, I think that takes so much of the meaning out of it. And I'm glad when people do communion point blank. Like, I'm not just trying to be like, oh, hey, that's bad. Don't do that.

But going to a Lutheran church now where there's these older ladies who prepare the bread each week, and I'm like. Like, I'm looking at this going, oh, this isn't just, like, something cheap that we're just doing because that's what we do.

Like, this is something that people put work and thought into, and that there's a purpose to what we're doing. And I just like putting purpose into it. And not just communion, our meals in general.

So I really love your book for, like, really highlighting some of that.

Do you think maybe we should do different kinds of breads at communion sometimes like to just to remember these other cultures or are you like, this is something and separate?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:44:08

No. So, I mean, I think there are. This is kind of a live question in many different traditions. And they're like.

So I know within the Methodist Church and potentially some other traditions as well, there is a regular. An annual practice of World Communion Sunday. And oftentimes on this week, on this World Communion Sunday, they will.

They will have the altar laid with breads of all different kinds from all different parts of the world. That is this way of sort of telling the story. Yeah.

But then it is also a live question within Christian tradition of whether or not, you know, the bread of communion should be made with wheat or whether it can be made of another grain. Thomas Aquinas said that it must be made of wheat. And so this has been an ongoing sort of question throughout much of much of Christian history.

There's also this ongoing sort of division over whether or not the bread should be leavened. And so the church in the east says that it should be leavened. The church in the west, the Catholic Church, said that it should not be leave.

Most Protestant churches allow either one these days. So in some sense, I think they're. I think that great intentionality behind the elements that we use in the Eucharist is very important.

I think that it is good that people have specific convictions over how. What elements they use and how those elements are presented.

And also I think that it is good that we have disagreements over that and that we can see sort of beauty in these differing traditions. And so I love the way that Aquinas kind of put it in. One of his questions in the Summa was.

Was around the question of yeast and whether or not Christians ought to have a leavened or an unleavened bread. And his response is essentially to say, well, if you live in the east, then you should have a leavened bread, because that is the.

The like tradition of your church and there is good theological reason behind it.

And if you're in the west, you should have unleavened and bread because that is tradition of your church and there is good theological reason behind it. And so I love kind of holding on to that tension of there is good theological reason behind the things that we do.

And also it is good that we have differences that can come up in tension with one another and reveal new variants of our faith.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:23

Yeah. Yeah. We do have an ongoing joke on this podcast for some reason, where TJ And I just always disagree with Thomas Aquinas, when come we can.

So I'm gonna say officially, our podcast is against wheat now, but reluctantly, we're gonna have to accept that second part because, you know, that's the whole Christian unity thing, and I think you might have been right about that.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:46:44

Well, and, you know, I. I can't wait until, you know, the, like, new creation when I can have a conversation with Aquinas about this, because, you know, I.

I agree with him, of course, on, on the weak front.

But one of the things that I was talking with a friend who is much better read on Aquinas than I am, and, you know, I think understands him much more fully than I. Than I do.

And his response was, I think that part of, like, I think that Aquinas response would have been different if he had written a few hundred years later. But when Aquinas is writing, he can't fathom a continent that doesn't grow wheat. Right. Like, the Europeans have not arrived in the Americas yet.

They don't know that there's an entire continent that doesn't historically grow wheat. And so in his mind, wheat is prevalent. Wheat is everywhere. Everyone has access to wheat, and it is always the finer grain.

So, of course, it's the grain that we use as Christ's body. And if.

If he had been, you know, like, confronted with the reality that there's entire groups of people who never ate wheat and do not grow wheat, I think his response would have changed.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:45

Man, that sounds like a. Like a good one. What if maybe when Disney's done with Marvel, what if they can do Thomas Aquinas what if series?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:47:54

Well, you know, I get to that answer because of his kind of nuance and thoughtfulness in response to the yeast question. I think he probably would have had a little more nuance when it came to wheat if, you know, that had been the reality he understood.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:08

Yeah.

Not to get completely off the rails, but I will say in general, when I read Aquinas's, like, his views on things, I usually am like, that seems illogical and wrong. But then when I hear his reasoning of, like, yeah, but I don't actually hold this tight, and I think that we can actually work together.

I'm like, man, we would have.

What's funny is we would have agreed on the church unity bid if it may be disagreed about every other doctrinal issue, but it's fine because we agreed on the church unity thing first. We're okay.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:48:34

That's right.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:35

But no. So, man, before we get into the end, I. I'm Having so much fun. I could talk to you. You're a really fun person to talk to. I really enjoyed your book.

And now talking to you, I'm like, sure, if you can hear me, I can hear you. Yeah. Now having spoken to you, I definitely can see where your voice comes through in the book so much.

I'm like, wow, she kind of talks and writes the same. I love when that happens.

Ironically, that's one of the few places I disagree with CS Lewis where he doesn't think that how you speak and write should be the same. And I'm like, that's sad, because now when I see you in heaven, I know that you're not going to sound like how I think you're going to.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:49:11

Sound, but it's fine. Well, with this book, it was especially easy to have that because I have taught this workshop so many times.

It's like, I've said these things a million times. I just needed to get it down on paper. And so it was really fun. This one was the easiest and most fun of my books to write because.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:29

I really want to pick up. I saw there was another one that was food related with your name on that I think I have in my Amazon basket.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:49:37

Yeah, I have food. Three books.

So I have one also By Bread Alone was the book just before this, which is my, like, memoir, kind of Theology of Bread is told through my story. And then a book called We Will Feast, which is a study of churches that have their service around the table.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:53

Okay, I. We Will Feast is the one that's on my list.

By Bread Alone is about to be on my list in, like, two seconds after we're done because I open it on another tab so I can do that, because.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:50:05

Yeah, perfect.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:05

But no, I. Yeah, I just. I enjoy your writing style. Like, just speaking to you. It's been great. Just so we don't miss anything, is there any, like.

Like, maybe a recipe that stands out to you that you really enjoy making or that you think has specific spiritual significance or anything that maybe we missed that people might want to know about you or your book?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:50:23

Oh, man. I mean, I think everything in the book is delicious, so just highly recommend checking it out and working your way through it all.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:29

Yeah, yeah, don't start with the pika bread, but please don't skip the pika bread. That's what I'm gonna say. Guys, it was so good. Like, I still can't. I can't get over it. I was like, I.

Because, like, I'm good with meat usually, and that's Basically it. But I made a bread. I was like, this is really good. I'm so proud of myself. Yeah. That's all. This is just me patting myself on the back. It's fine.

But with that, then one of the things we like to do before wrapping up, we do always ask our guests, if you had to provide just a single tangible action, something practical, that would better help engender unity in the church today. What's something practical that you think our listeners could go do right now?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:51:12

I think we need to eat more meals with people.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:15

Yeah.

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:51:15

I think we need to eat more meals in our churches, and we need to eat more meals with people from different churches and different faith backgrounds.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:23

Yeah. And I.

If you're okay with it, I would like to even, like, add the challenge of, like, cook more meals for people, because, you know, I found as I've gotten more into cooking, that's like, there was something different about. We went and grabbed fast food and came back and watched a TV show as opposed to I invited someone over and made a meal for them, you know?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:51:41

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:43

If everybody started doing this stuff, what do you think we would see change in our church, churches, and the world around us and maybe in our own relationships?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:51:50

Yeah.

I think that we would see a much deeper commitment to trying to understand one another and to hear one another's stories that would give us just a lot more grace for one another and a lot more curiosity about our differences and what they can teach us about. I think the creativity of God and the diversity of humanity and of God's creation.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:12

Yeah, it's beautiful stuff, and I completely agree. And this is where I have to start doing TJ Spartan and I'm bad at. So we do always like to ask everybody to just share a God moment.

It's just a moment where we've seen God in recently, doesn't have to be in. The last week can be just like whenever. And TJ always likes to make me go think first so everybody has time to think.

Man, this one's going to be silly of me. Mine's going to be that I had someone cancel a podcast with me this week and have to reschedule it next week.

And I know that that's a really lame one, but what had happened was I was finishing up my school semester and everybody kept asking me to do podcasts or to have guest spots or for me to guest on somebody else's show. And I kept being like, oh, I'm finished with school next week. So next week's a great time.

And I had, like, 5 million podcasts I was supposed to do this week. And I was like, oh, man, I made this awful for me. And when I love everybody we talk to, I'm really excited to speak.

But when you do, like, multiple in a row, I know that I'm not giving my best quality. And also, I just get tired. So when one person was like, can we do it next week? I was like, oh, thank Jesus. And it just. It was such a. Like a relief.

And I kind of feel like maybe God let that happen so that we could have a better recording and that I could enjoy it more. But. Yeah. So, Kendall, what is. Have you seen God? Anything recently that, you know, like to share?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:53:34

Yeah, well, I did this this week. I spent the first half of this week with a group of people who were all getting trained to teach this bake and pray workshop.

And it was just a joy to hear their stories of how they arrived to this place this week. And just seeing the ways that.

It's always a gift for me to see the ways that God has been kind of meeting other people behind the scenes through my work over the years that. That I have not known about. And so that was just a real joy to get to hear their stories this week.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:05

That's awesome. Speaking of which, for those listening, if they want to get your book, I know it's on Amazon.

Is there any, like, preferred place that you would send them to get your book? Or maybe if they're interested in the Bacon Pray class or any of that, where should they go?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:54:21

Yeah, so you can get the book anywhere that books are sold.

If you go to my website, Kendallvanderslice.com, the Bacon Pray tab on there will tell you everything you need to know about the book, but also about booking a workshop if you'd like to do a workshop, or how to buy the video companion if you want to do a video workshop along with the book. And it also has links to all of the different places that you can get the book.

You can get it on Amazon through Christian book distributors, through the. Through the publisher. There's a lot of different options on there for where you can buy books.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:51

Awesome. Great stuff. And yeah, I definitely highly recommend it.

Personally, I'm glad I have it on Kindle, because I can do the tab and go to the recipes, and it's really easy for cookbooks. Kindle's been amazing. I didn't expect that particular benefit, but I'm like, actually, yeah, it's nice to be able to just click which recipe I Want?

Kendall Vanderslice: 00:55:09

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's nice.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:10

But. All right, guys. Well, again, thank you all so much for listening. Thank you, Kendall, for joining us.

If you are listening and you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend, an enemy or a cousin, especially your cousins, as TJ would like you to. I don't know, he wants his like, he wants us to have like four families that listen, but like really big families. So you guys have to share.

I don't know. But I also want to remind you guys that you can get merch. Like the super comfy T shirt that I'm wearing here.

Yeah, we are very intentional with the comfort level of our stuff that we put out because I'm like, people aren't going to wear stuff just because I think it looks good. People wear the comfy stuff.

So if you go to our store that's in the show notes you will get and you see any of the merch there, I give you my guarantee that it's super comfy and that you should order one size up. That's my personal suggestion. But I mentioned earlier some of the shows that's on my own on his all podcast network.

My pastor, he has his own on there. That's the homily.

So if you just want to hear some of his homilies, you can go to the homily on his own podcast network with Pastor Chill Will and you'll hear some of his Kung Fu pizza party Brandon night. Great show.

Make sure you check out all the shows on the Amazon podcast network because TJ will be happy that I did my part and I hope you enjoyed this week.

Again next week we're going to be talking with Brandon Robertson, discuss his work as progressive Christian author, pastor and Bible scholarship scholar. After that, we will have on Dr.

Bruce Eberly to discuss charismatic movements and the need for churches that both believe in the power of the spirit and the accepting love of God. Then we're going to have on Brian record discuss his Instagram reels on church dogma and his new book Hell Bent.

We have a lot of other really fun stuff. We have Bible 101. The authors of that book's coming on. So just, just keep waiting. We have some good stuff coming up.

Finally at the end of season one, of course Francis Chan's going to be on, but he doesn't know about it.

So you guys do have to to tell him because I don't know, we just keep doing this bit and the more we have actual authors on, the more I'm like, maybe we need to chill with this bit, but I don't know. We're still doing it. All right, here. Here are the bread. Recording this separately. Who knows how I edit this in? We.

TJ and I both tried some of those recipes from the book Bacon Pray with Kendall Vander Slice, and we just want to talk about some of what we tried. So, dj, I don't know which ones you did exactly. Which. What breads were you.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:26

Oh, I did oat bread. The bannock oat or oat. St. Brigid's oat bread.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:32

Okay. Do you remember anything about the story behind that one?

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:34

I don't. I just.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:36

Did I even send that to. You did.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:38

Pretty sure you did. I'm pretty sure that's where I got the recipe from. If not, it manifested in my mind and on my phone screen very close. Clearly.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:49

Perfect. So I tried a few different ones. All the ones that I tried were from the Eastertide section. I tried the hot cross buns, the pasta, and the pinka.

I've not done the defo dabo. Wait, no, I didn't try the hot cross buns. I did do the defo dabo. I did pasta, pinka and defo dabo.

My favorite is very easily the pinka because it's sweet Croatian bread with a little bit of orange, citrus, and rum involved. It was like Kendall Vanderslice, at least kind of like. You know what? Talk to Josh at some point, he's going to want something with oranges and rum.

Let me make sure I include this bread in here. That's the only reasonable explanation I got. But, no, I liked all of them. The pinko was a little bit sweeter.

It kind of looks like a giant dinner roll almost. When it was was done, the defidabo is supposed to be wrapped in banana leaves. I didn't have any, so I used parchment paper instead.

It's a little bit of spicier. So it's a bread. I think it was Ethiopian, perhaps. Yeah, Ethiopian. It's an Ethiopian bread. It's no yeast in that recipe.

So that one was really interesting. And then the other one I did was the posca. It's Ukrainian. I talk about that some in the original. The original recording with Kendall van der Sluice.

So it was really meaningful to try Ukrainian recipe around Easter in our current times, where Ukraine is in so much threat and turmoil, and to be able to participate in this and thinking about praying Christ as our bread and what they're going through at the same time was. Yeah, that was very meaningful. As far as a baking Experience goes is probably the most meaningful one.

And I could conjure up even if it wasn't my favorite of the breads. It's actually probably my least favorite of the breads. It just tasted like regular bread with icing on top. When I did it, I probably did it wrong.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:42

Yeah, that sounds incorrect.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:44

Yeah. It was like, this is regular bread that for some reason has icing on it. I don't know. But yeah. Tj, tell me something about yours.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:52

So mine. I did mine. I had a friend in town. It was, like, right around my birthday and perfect. That's also why I didn't get a picture. Picture of it.

Just because we baked it and ate it immediately, which is my bad. We waited for the bread for a while, but it's super easy. The hardest part was finding rolled oats, which they're not that hard to get.

I just didn't see any. So I grabbed quick oats. I made it with quick oats instead.

And I think it made the bread a little more dense than it was supposed to be, but it was still delicious. We ended with a little milk, little honey, as is, you know.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:28

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:29

Recommended.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:31

But it does sound good, though.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:32

The one thing I thought was really interesting was this was an Irish folk bread, like pagan Irish folk bread. Originally, I was marked, you know, cut into quarters because you traditionally make it on a quarter day.

February 2nd, which is a quarter day, is the day between a solstice and an equinox.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:53

That's my anniversary.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:54

It is your anniversary. Very, very impactful day. February 2nd.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:59

That's cool.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:59

And if you don't know, his anniversary.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:01

Was also 2 20.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:04

20.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:05

2.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:05

222 or.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:06

Yeah, 2 2. 2. 2, 202 0.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:08

Yeah, whatever that was.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:09

Yeah. Yeah. One of those fun things where it's the same palantir of backwards. So I would remember, but it was really, really good. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:15

It's also really fun to bake, which is the easiest part to forget every time. I'm like, wow, I should totally do this more often. And then I don't. Most.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:27

I definitely get where it's like a spiritual, peaceful practice for freaking.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:30

Yeah. Most of the reason, though, that I forget to make bread is I'm nearly positive you have my bread pan at your house.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:38

That might be the pan that I used to make the pasta that I wasn't supposed to make in a pan. Turns out I'm supposed to make it in, like, a coffee can or something.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:45

Yeah, that's.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:46

But that's very different granion. Yeah. I also think I need to try the posca pan, the pasta bread again, because it was the first one I tried, and I've never baked before.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:55

Yeah. You have to follow.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:56

I've gotten better since I did that first one.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:58

You have to follow the instructions when you're baking.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:00

Yeah. Really well. But it also had had a gold raisins in it, and that was kind of cool. So I think it was supposed to be sweet. I think I messed up. Yeah.

But the. The pica, the one that I liked the most, that was like the sweet with the citrus and the rum and stuff in it.

I made the it last week, and we had some with a steak dinner when Christian Ashley came over. Bread was still really good. Doesn't really go great with steak.

I think if I was to do another bread with the steak, I would probably try that defo dabo again. That has a little bit of that spiciness to it, and it's a little denser of a bread. I think that probably would have went better.

TJ Blackwell: 01:02:35

I would imagine so.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:36

Yeah. But they were all great. I love the recipes.

And just like you mentioned, just that practice of baking, I've never really baked before, so it took me a while to figure out kneading. And in the book, it has, like, the stretch and pull method. Stretch and fold. That's what's called stretch and fold method. And I was like, oh, okay.

So I had to learn how to knead. And you know how I am with learning physical things. Yeah.

My attention span is not high, but once I started doing it a few times, I really started getting it better. And Chef Vanderslice mentioned on our recording, because I talked about how some of them ended up not cooking all the way.

There was like, a little bit of doughy section. She was like, yeah, you live in a humid area. You need to cook it slightly longer. That did wonders. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:20

Then no one ever like. Well, I'm sure they do teach you that in, like, culinary school and stuff, but just casual information like online recipes.

No one's ever going to mention that to you, ever. The altitude and, like, environmental conditions that you're in drastically changes how you cook things.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:37

Yeah. Which is also where, like, so many different countries and places. When you go through here, you realize why their bread recipes are so different.

Because the background of the country, the culture they live in, the temperature outside actually matters how you bake it. Like, there's so many different factors, and it's just so interesting.

It makes a lot of sense why so much history and culture goes into some of these recipes. It was really cool. Learning about practicing, starting to bake, and I think I'm gonna keep. Keep making breads more often.

It is peaceful because it forces me to be engaged enough that I can't get distracted. What I'm gonna do when I have dough all over my. My hands. Kneading is my only option.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:14

Yeah, yeah, it really is.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:15

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:16

And you can't. Yeah, well, you can knead with one hand, but you shouldn't. You shouldn't.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:21

So true. Accurate. Yeah. But, yeah. So I. I encourage everybody to get it. Learn more about these traditions, the cultures that go into some of these recipes.

And, yeah, if you listen to the rest of the episode, you'll know why I think that's important and why it can be important to communion maybe, as well as a spiritual practice in general.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:39

It's also just like a super fun thing. Just get the book. Cook one a week, every other week, whatever. Just bake your way through it and pray.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:49

Pray your way through it. Bake and pray.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:50

Bake and pray.