Episode 274
Exploring the Interplay of Charismatic and Progressive Theologies with Dr. Bruce Epperly
The exploration of the interplay between progressive theology and Pentecostal thought emerges as a central theme in this discourse with Dr. Bruce Epperly. He articulates that unity, often perceived as elusive within the contemporary Christian landscape, is inherently present through the workings of the Holy Spirit. Dr. Epperly draws upon his extensive background as a congregational pastor and professor to underscore the significance of embracing diverse spiritual experiences. He posits that such inclusivity not only enhances theological discourse but also fosters a more profound sense of community among disparate Christian traditions. The dialogue invites listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journeys and consider how they might contribute to a more unified expression of faith amidst diversity.
The engaging discourse between Joshua Noel, TJ Blackwell, and Dr. Bruce Epperly in this episode delves into the nuanced interplay between progressive theology and the charismatic movement. It commences with a profound examination of scriptural texts, notably John 14, which underscores the imperative of love manifested through adherence to divine commandments. This theological lens paves the way for a rich exploration of unity within the Christian community, despite the manifold divisions that often characterize contemporary religious contexts. Dr. Epperly posits that unity is an inherent reality, existing regardless of human constructs of division, and asserts that the Holy Spirit actively works to bind believers together in a profound and transcendent communion.
As the discourse unfolds, Dr. Epperly articulates his perspective on process theology, emphasizing the relational nature of God, who is dynamically engaged in the ebb and flow of human experiences. This theological approach stands in stark contrast to more static interpretations of divine sovereignty, advocating for a vision of God who responds to the unfolding narrative of creation. He elucidates how this perspective allows for the acceptance of diverse spiritual expressions, including practices traditionally associated with Pentecostalism, thereby enriching the collective understanding of God's presence in the world. Dr. Epperly's insights challenge listeners to reconsider the boundaries that often separate different faith traditions, advocating for a more inclusive approach to spirituality.
The dialogue culminates in a compelling call to action, urging listeners to cultivate humility and active listening as foundational practices for fostering unity among Christians. Dr. Epperly encourages engagement with diverse theological perspectives, emphasizing the importance of recognizing the shared spiritual journey that connects all believers. By embracing a posture of openness and receptivity, he believes communities can foster a deep sense of belonging and solidarity, ultimately reflecting the inclusive nature of divine love. This episode not only invites reflection on the potential for reconciliation within the church but also serves as a poignant reminder of the transformative power of love and acceptance in the Christian faith.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Bruce Epperly's extensive background in theology and ministry enriches the podcast's exploration of progressive theology.
- The conversation emphasizes the inherent unity among Christians, as articulated through the lens of the Holy Spirit's influence.
- Process theology presents a dynamic relationship with God, suggesting that divine revelation occurs continually in every moment.
- Epperly argues for inclusivity within the Christian faith, advocating for the acceptance of diverse spiritual experiences and expressions.
- The podcast highlights the historical evolution of the charismatic movement and its potential convergence with progressive Christian thought.
- Unity amid diversity is a key theme, reflecting that the Holy Spirit fosters connections beyond traditional doctrinal divides.
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Check out all of the other shows in the Anazao Podcast Network:
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Be sure to follow all of Dr Bruce Epperly's work through his website:
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Transcript
John 14, 15, 21 in the Christian Standard Bible say, if you love me, you will keep my commands.
Speaker A:And I will ask the Father and He will give you another counselor to be with you forever.
Speaker A:He is the Spirit of truth.
Speaker A:The world is unable to receive him because it doesn't see him or know Him.
Speaker A:But you do know him because he remains with you and will be in you.
Speaker A:I will not leave you as orphans.
Speaker A:I am coming to you.
Speaker A:In a little while, the world will no longer see me, but you will see me.
Speaker A:Because I live.
Speaker A:You will live too.
Speaker A:On that day, you will know that I am in my Father.
Speaker A:You are in Me, and I am in you.
Speaker A:The one who has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.
Speaker A:And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father.
Speaker A:I also will love him and will reveal myself to Him.
Speaker A:In this section of Scripture, Jesus is speaking with the disciples about his leaving and and the coming of the comforter, his ascension.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Bruce Epperly, in what way do you think we might have unity in one another through His Spirit today?
Speaker B:Well, that's a wonderful question, because at first glance it seems as if there's very little unity, both in the political and theological and religious worlds.
Speaker B:I think first of all, if we begin with the Spirit, unity already exists whether or not we are aware of it, and unity already exists whether or not we choose it.
Speaker B:You know, if we think of Acts 2, the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts, is that the unity is there, the unity is there, the revelation is there, the Spirit is moving and inspiring us, and sometimes we're aware of it.
Speaker B:So I think we first have to be begin with saying unity exists, unity exists.
Speaker B:And there in quotes, there's nothing we can do about it.
Speaker B:We are united whether we like it or not.
Speaker B:We are part of this fabric of destiny, as Martin Luther King says, and it's a spiritual destiny.
Speaker B:And I don't think the Holy Spirit is, I want to say, stingy in its revelation.
Speaker B:I think, as the Celtic spirituality guides would say, in every newborn face, you can see the face of God.
Speaker B:That being the case, God is everywhere.
Speaker B:And of course, good Christian theology says that God is omnipresent and omniactive.
Speaker B:You're either present or you're not.
Speaker B:And God's spirit, God's wholeness is present in us.
Speaker B:Certainly there's always been division in the Christian movement.
Speaker B:It's certainly you can see the evolution of the Christian movement from the very beginning in Acts of the Apostles, where they were struggling to figure out how many people and how many groups should be included and called first class Christians.
Speaker B:And of course the Spirit moved to say what's to hinder?
Speaker B:What's to hinder Cornelius for being part and his family for being part of the family of God.
Speaker B:What's to hinder a eunuch from Ethiopia to being part of the family of God?
Speaker B:What's to hinder the Greeks and the non Jews from being part of the family of God?
Speaker B:I think we're the ones that create disunity, not God.
Speaker B:I think one of the marks of the Holy Spirit is unity.
Speaker B:Unity amid diversity.
Speaker B:Unity amid diversity.
Speaker B:The Holy Spirit doesn't want everything to look the same.
Speaker B:The Holy Spirit loves diversity.
Speaker B:But it's always grounded in unity.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Good stuff.
Speaker C:Hey everybody.
Speaker C:Welcome to the Whole Church podcast.
Speaker C:We are excited for another fun episode.
Speaker C:Today we will be talking with Dr.
Speaker C:Bruce Epperley.
Speaker C:We're going to be kind of discussing this tension between churches that are embracing the movements of the Holy Spirit and churches that are accepting and loving towards all and whether or not why don't we see more progressive churches that are more spiritual.
Speaker C:And of course to do this I have to have my co host, the one and only, the one after whom strength, the word strength actually came from the first time anyone beheld the image of TJ Tiberius 1 Blackwell.
Speaker C:How's it going?
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker A:You may have memories of a time 26 and a day ago where you thought you knew the word strength.
Speaker A:That was not true.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's manufactured memories.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're here today with.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're here today with Bruce Everly at Dr.
Speaker A:Rev.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Bruce Everly, I believe.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Bruce Everly served over 45 years as a university chaplain, Congregational pastor, seminary administrator, and university and seminary professor.
Speaker A: Church, UCC Barnstable, MA In: Speaker A: He was ordained in: Speaker A:He currently is the theologian in residence at Westmoreland Congregational United Church of Christ in Bethesda, Maryland and remains on faculty at Wesley School of Theology or Wesley Theology Seminary Theological Seminary.
Speaker A:Sorry, I'm all tied up Today in Washington, D.C.
Speaker A:as an adjunct professor in the areas of theology, spirituality and healing and wholeness.
Speaker A:Bruce has authored over 80 books in theology, spirituality, healing and wholeness, scripture and clergy well Being, including the Elephant Is Running Process and Open and Relational theology.
Speaker A:And Religious Pluralism, the Jubilee Years Embracing Clergy Retirement center In a cyclone, 21st century clergy self Care, Francis of Assisi From Privilege to Activism, Mystics in Action, 12 Saints for Today, Prophetic Healing, Howard Thurman's Vision of Contemplative Activism, 101 Soul Seeds for Grandparents Working for a Better World and 101 Soul Seeds for a joyful retirement.
Speaker A:He his most recent books are the God of Whitehead and Tail Art on Metaphysics, Mysticism and Mission, Head Heart and An Introduction to St.
Speaker A:Bonaventure Homegrown Mystics Restoring the Spirit of Our Nation through the Wisdom of America's Visionaries, Saving Progressive Christianity to Save the Planet and God of the Growing Edge, Whitehead and Thurman on Theology, Spirituality, and Social Change in retirement, Bruce describes his life as spacious, meaningful and busy enough.
Speaker A:His days are filled with writing.
Speaker A:He's got six more books planned over the next few years, so you've got a Sandersonian writing schedule here.
Speaker A:He's preparing for and leading classes and talks.
Speaker A:He's mentoring pastors, seminarians.
Speaker A:He's walking, watching British mysteries, reading and spending time with his wife, Reverend Dr.
Speaker A:Catherine Gould Epperly, and his grandchildren who live in the neighborhood.
Speaker A:He wakes up eager at 4:30am for today's Holy adventure, which always includes an afternoon nap, which is a schedule we could all only hope for.
Speaker A:On occasion, he does a part time ministry for congregations focusing on theological reflection, preaching, teaching and reviving congregation spirits.
Speaker A:He is committed to creating a sustainable world for his grandchildren and future generations, hospitality and welcoming of immigrants and asylum seekers, human rights for all, and the realizing of the beloved community on earth as it is in heaven.
Speaker B:Boy, I'm tired just having you recite that.
Speaker B:I think I need a nap now.
Speaker A:We could all use a nap, but.
Speaker B:I'll try to hang in there for another 40 minutes or so.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if you're listening, check out the Onza Podcast Network website.
Speaker A:The link is below and there are paid subscriptions you can use to support us.
Speaker A:If you don't want to wear the merch.
Speaker A:If you think the church logo is too cheesy, like a certain consultant once said when someone came up with it, you can support us on Captivate Apple Me Podcast.
Speaker A:I might have.
Speaker A:No, I'm pretty sure I did.
Speaker A:But it looks good.
Speaker A:Yeah, so you should buy one.
Speaker A:You like it on captivate.com the whole church.
Speaker C:Your exact words were I like it, I wouldn't wear it, but like the church.
Speaker C:It's called Whole Church Podcast.
Speaker C:What else are we going to put on there an apple.
Speaker A:As long as it all.
Speaker A:Apple.
Speaker C:You definitely did say something.
Speaker C:You definitely use the line of what else are we going to put on there?
Speaker C:An apple.
Speaker C:I remember that.
Speaker B:An apple is good.
Speaker B:Yeah, but an apple a day keeps bad theology away.
Speaker C:Well, after this maybe we'll have a shirt with an apple for.
Speaker C:For those who want it.
Speaker B:But better yet than a snake, I suppose.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:But one thing we like to always do, the first thing we like to do on our show, Holy Sacrament of Unity, which is a silliness because you can't be arguing, you can't be in division when you're being as silly as I like to be.
Speaker C:So our silly question for the day.
Speaker C:TJ and I only first give you time to think about it.
Speaker C:Dr.
Speaker C:Epperly, which high fantasy character would make for the most entertaining beach vacation companion?
Speaker C:Pretty sure I wrote this outline while I was on a vacation at a beach.
Speaker C:So I'll answer first because I just think taking Thorin Oakenshield with me would be fantastic.
Speaker C:It would just be so funny.
Speaker B:Well, I think you just take everything way too serious.
Speaker B:I suppose that being of a certain age, I might take Gandalf or Dumbledore with me.
Speaker B:They're wise companions.
Speaker C:Would be fun.
Speaker B:They're wise companions.
Speaker B:We could sit in our beach chairs, have an umbrella, speak great words, perhaps smoke a cigar, enjoy a beach cocktail.
Speaker B:Now again, of the younger set, I think Hermione Granger I'd invite over because she simply is a high spirited person.
Speaker B:And as a college professor and as teacher of young people, she'd be a fun person to mentor a strong female, a spirited female to mentor toward, you know, seeking the light and you know, battling in a holy way, the.
Speaker B:Or a challenging way.
Speaker B:The forces of destruction in our world.
Speaker A:I chose Legolas.
Speaker A:I think I could teach him to do anything on the beach.
Speaker A:And I think it'd be cool to see him skim board, bocce ball.
Speaker A:I feel like he'd be unfairly good at.
Speaker A:That's the kind of competition I like to strive for.
Speaker C:So yeah, meanwhile, me and Thor.
Speaker B:I'm not sure you get Gondolph or Dumbledore at volleyball, beach volleyball, but maybe you can do that in your beach robe.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker A:So before we get into our main topic, you mentioned to us being a process theologian.
Speaker A:We've had other process guys on before, but we were curious if you could give us your quick elevator pitch on process thought for any of our listeners that might not be familiar.
Speaker B:Well, sure, and we'll have to take you probably to at least the seventh floor, maybe or the eighth day of creation.
Speaker B:I'll just bring it down simply since I've always tried to write in my speaking voice and try to explain things that may seem complicated in daily language for me at least.
Speaker B:And I'm not the one who speaks for all process theologians that process theology sees relationship, interdependence, creativity, companionship, freedom as essential to our life and God's life.
Speaker B:That God is present at each moment of experience calling us forward, that God is present in every moment of experience, calling us forward toward beloved community, toward a vision of beauty, that God and the world are in relationship so that God always matters to us and we matter to God.
Speaker B:There's no pre programmed into the universe in some level, but that we're indeed companioning God, ideally in healing the world or bringing about the best possible world.
Speaker B:I think agency is key.
Speaker B:In contrast to some views of God.
Speaker B:Process theology would suggest that the more that we do, the more that we do, the more God is able to do in our world.
Speaker B:It's not a zero sum relationship, it's a yes and relationship.
Speaker B:And in many ways I think process theology, we're about the sixth floor now.
Speaker B:Process theology mirrors the biblical vision perhaps more accurately than some of the traditional theologies.
Speaker B:Because at least as I read the Bible, God is interacting with the world.
Speaker B:God's asking people to move forward.
Speaker B:God has tremendous knowledge of the world, but new things happen that God responds to that call and response.
Speaker B:And in response and call, that's at least the first stab at it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:All right, so how do you think this kind of thought might make it either easier or more difficult for greater reconciliation among other Christian tradition to might think differently?
Speaker B:Well, yeah, I think that's an important one.
Speaker B:I think that one area of course that process theology may be problematic to some people is that the world is open ended, that there's free play in the universe, that we are part of a process that shapes God's involvement in the universe.
Speaker B:That there's no pre programmed day of judgment that's going to happen two weeks from now.
Speaker B:That that God is constantly creative, that the living God is constantly creative and responding to the world.
Speaker B:You know, I think at one level that's good theology.
Speaker B:I mean, when we're praying, we want to believe that our prayers make a difference to God.
Speaker B:When we're doing something to share the good news, when we're doing something to make make the world a better place, we want to believe that God is knowing this and is responding to this, you know, an area in which, you know, obviously process theology differs from some theologies is that the world is continuing, that it's not all been decided in advance.
Speaker B:And in fact, the matter is, I think that makes God a living God.
Speaker B:A God that has decided everything in advance and is sort of like Groundhog Day.
Speaker B:The same things are constantly in God's experience and nothing changes.
Speaker B:I think a living God has to be much more inventive than we do.
Speaker B:A living God may not be determining everything, but there's no limit to what God can do over the historical process of the universe.
Speaker B:I think when people speak of God having decided everything advanced, they're really at some level talking about a finite God.
Speaker B:It's done, even though they might say otherwise, it's done and it can be no more from process thought.
Speaker B:There's always more that God can do in the world.
Speaker B:God can always do a new thing.
Speaker B:God's mercies as I could start preaching here, God's mercies are new every morning.
Speaker B:And I've been a preacher for 45 years.
Speaker B:So I think theology isn't of much use if it can't be preached either.
Speaker A:I agree with that.
Speaker A:So Joshua and I, we both grew up Pentecostal.
Speaker A:And you mentioned to us before that you are fond of the Christian mystic thinking and the more spiritual focus of traditions like Pentecostalism.
Speaker A:How might this kind of spiritual and mystic focus be compatible with the process theology?
Speaker B:Well, I think it can be quite compatible.
Speaker B:I think one of the challenges in our experiential and theological worlds are that we have a narrow sense of what's permissible in various traditions.
Speaker B:You know, I don't myself experience glossolalia or speaking in tongues.
Speaker B:However, I get caught up in the Spirit.
Speaker B:I go to a traditional church, but I'm an amen speaker.
Speaker B:And I feel the raise my hand every so often.
Speaker B:And singing a hymn, I start singing sometimes not usually done among God's frozen chosen, but I sometimes sing in my sermons.
Speaker B:If the Spirit moves me, you can preach a progressive sermon and live a progressive life.
Speaker B:And the thing about process theology, from my perspective, it privileges all sorts of spiritual experiences.
Speaker B:Many people, when they experience the gift of the Spirit of speaking in tongues, are taken out of themselves into a moment of transcendence.
Speaker B:Other people find that something equivalent to that in being at a Quaker meeting.
Speaker B:And I've been to many.
Speaker B:I used to be at regularly the Quaker meeting in Claremont, California, when I was a seminarian and grad student.
Speaker B:And somebody will get up in the middle of the service and say, God spoke to me.
Speaker B:And of course, the Quakers got their name, the Friends got their name because they quaked before God.
Speaker B:And you know, it's interesting because some of the gifts of the Spirit are the experiences of mystics.
Speaker B:They feel that God has spoken to them.
Speaker B:They have visual experiences of the holy.
Speaker B:They have visions.
Speaker B:Of course, again, that's.
Speaker B:I think our problem is that we have stereotypes of what religious traditions can be and we have stereotypes of what's allowed and what isn't allowed.
Speaker B:Historically, I think some of the great Christians may have had very low temperature spiritualities, while others had very warm spiritualities.
Speaker B:And I think process theology privileges all of those.
Speaker B:God works in those who speak in tongues, those who lay on hands.
Speaker B:People certainly receive revelations.
Speaker B:I've gotten those.
Speaker B:I hear occasionally.
Speaker B:Half a dozen of my books came from hearing a voice telling me I should write this.
Speaker B:And the non rational or the trans rational is part of our experience.
Speaker B:When all the great religions began with some sort of transcendent experience.
Speaker B:Whether it's a burning bush or the encounter of Isaiah with God in the temple or Jesus in the wilderness, or even if you want to go outside our tradition, Buddha sitting under the bow tree and experiencing illumination or enlightenment.
Speaker B:The world is a grand place.
Speaker B:We can't limit ourselves either to the emotional or the intellectual.
Speaker B:Why not both?
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Well, so thinking along the lines of process thought, one of the things since you mentioned Buddhism that's really interesting is Siddhartha, the story.
Speaker C:Siddhartha, traditionally he's very skinny because he went through all the fast and stuff.
Speaker C:And it wasn't till stories of the Buddha went to China that they started building the fat Buddha that a lot of people associate with it.
Speaker C:And it's just that ability to say, hey, this is what works here.
Speaker C:This is what's meaningful here, what images work in this area.
Speaker C:And thinking all of our religious traditions do that to an extent.
Speaker C:We're just less aware of it sometimes and maybe be more aware of it could be more helpful.
Speaker C:You mentioned a lot of how you think this works really well with Pentecostalism and the moving of the Spirit, that kind of stuff with.
Speaker C:With your process theology.
Speaker C:I'm not a process guy myself, but I'm close.
Speaker C:I was curious though, why do you think we do tend to see the people, the churches that are more Spirit focused tend to be more fundamentalist rather than more progressive, given how you've laid this out.
Speaker B:And it's interesting because of course, Pentecostalism has had a ambivalent relationship toward fundamentalism you know, in the Pentecostal tradition, there have been a lot of women preachers, right.
Speaker B:And they felt God's call to ministry.
Speaker B:And regardless of whether you cited a few passages from Paul, which I believe are misinterpretations, by the way they said, God's called me.
Speaker B:God's called me.
Speaker B:I think that probably.
Speaker B:And of course, there are a number of Pentecostal ministers who've.
Speaker B:Who I've encountered and I've heard of, who've felt a revelation of God in such a way that they became universalists.
Speaker B:And again, believing that the gifts of the Spirit are not reserved to a particular time, place or tradition.
Speaker B:I think probably we all need to break down the walls that we have in our traditions.
Speaker B:And as I might say, that Pentecostalism could do well in breaking down some of the walls toward openness to other and other ways of encountering God.
Speaker B:Of course, the same applies to my tradition.
Speaker B:We certainly have lots of walls we need to break down, too, as to what's appropriate in worship.
Speaker B:I mean, I think in my church of somebody that I attend, if somebody spoke in tongues, it certainly would be during the service.
Speaker B:It would be quite a surprise.
Speaker B:And I, of course, introduced healing ministries in our churches.
Speaker B:And I understand it perhaps a little differently than Oral Roberts would.
Speaker B:I'm more of a naturalist healer.
Speaker B:I think God's created a wonderful universe in which divine power works within your cell as well as your souls.
Speaker B:So it's not uncommon for me to seem a little bit Pentecostal.
Speaker B:If somebody's having a problem, I say, can I pray with you?
Speaker B:You know, can I pray for your healing?
Speaker B:And I don't claim to know what that's going to be, but, you know, and I.
Speaker B:Can I lay hands on you?
Speaker B:Can I put, you know, the divine energy of love flows everywhere.
Speaker B:And I think that we oftentimes aren't as imaginative as we should be.
Speaker B:We're the ones, again, I think of that wonderful word from the.
Speaker B:From Acts of the Apostles that appeared several times.
Speaker B:It's like the word immediately that appears often in the Gospel of Mark, Acts, the apostles.
Speaker B:It's unhindered, and the gospel was unhindered.
Speaker B:We're the ones that hinder the gospel.
Speaker B:The gospel, I think, breaks down the limitations that we place upon it.
Speaker B:So one could easily be a universalist and also speak in tongues.
Speaker B:One could also be a universalist and be part of a healing ministry, believe that people can receive revelations.
Speaker B:And of course, you check them with your community, you know, to say that, you know, Are these of God or are these revelations of my ego of a lower power?
Speaker B:We can be progressive in theology and recognize that not all spirits are good.
Speaker B:You know, I think, you know, that we live in a vast world in which not all the forces in the world are on our side.
Speaker B:Even in the political world, sometimes we can see the mass hysteria of groups that seem to be turning away from what is good toward division.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And I am one of those weirdos that speak in tongues.
Speaker C:Belief Jesus is the only way to salvation and also universalism.
Speaker C:So, you know.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, and it's all where you locate Jesus on that, that spectrum.
Speaker B:If you think that the God in Christ finds a way for everyone and that there's no, you know, as a friend of mine has on, had a T shirt that says, you know, God loves me and there's nothing I can do about it.
Speaker B:Or Paul had his own version.
Speaker B:Nothing can separate us from the love of God, even our unbelief.
Speaker B:You know, God has a lot of patience.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, God has a lot of patience with humankind individually and corporately.
Speaker B:And I don't think God ever quits calling us towards salvation.
Speaker B:There's no limit to God's call in our world, either in length or breadth or height or.
Speaker B:Or time.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:You know, I heard it somewhere.
Speaker C:It's like all sinned in atoms and just so all are alive in Christ or something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, it might be in the Bible, maybe.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I've heard that before.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's that old question, you know, what do you mean by all?
Speaker B:I mean, that's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, that's, you know, all kind of means all.
Speaker B:And we can't explain a way.
Speaker B:That question of awe as being an aberration.
Speaker B:If we privilege other scriptures that suggest that there's going to be a clear demarcation, we also have to have the all or Christ will be all in all, as the apostle Paul said.
Speaker B:Or God is the reality in whom we live and move and have our being.
Speaker B:I mean, we can find passages that are.
Speaker B:And I see judgment is real in the world.
Speaker B:Judgment is real.
Speaker B:I don't think that we.
Speaker B:We go through our lives and do anything we want and there's no consequence.
Speaker B:I believe in my own notion of survival after death, that we continue to be called by God beyond the grave and we have to come to terms with our lives.
Speaker B:If we don't have personal identity in heaven, if we lack personal identity in heaven, then what's heaven meaning, you know, and who I am as Bruce Epperly is my history of successes and failures, of joy and sorrow, of grace and sin.
Speaker B:And I believe I'll have an accounting.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think that the accounting will be grounded in grace and restoration, not retribution.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So what are some of the other main questions that you think people might want to know about you or process theology or spiritual reality or your 80ish books?
Speaker B:Well, yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker B:I think that, you know, the questions that many people have, I think, are, how can I be active in changing the world?
Speaker B:Point one, from where I'm sitting, and even if I live in Washington, D.C.
Speaker B:and I know personally and have taught personally, people who are on the news have known and spent time with a few presidents and presidential candidates.
Speaker B:And yet some of them, and many of us say, in a time that's troubled now, what can I do?
Speaker B:I don't feel like I have any power at all.
Speaker B:And one of the things I respond is, well, you have the power of responding where you are.
Speaker B:Again, I think it's the Terress of Lisieux, who was a mystic who lived in the turn of the century, was a very humble person.
Speaker B:She was an influence on Dorothy Day, the great social activist and Catholic worker.
Speaker B:But Teresa of Lisieux lived to be only about 30 years old and was more or less unproductive in her life for a variety of reasons.
Speaker B:But she said, I do ordinary things with extraordinary love.
Speaker B:If we can't save the planet as a totality, we can save the.
Speaker B:The part of the planet we're in.
Speaker B:I think Jewish wisdom suggests that if you save the soul, a soul, it's as if you've saved the universe.
Speaker B:I think that's pretty generous.
Speaker B:I think we have to save the world moment by moment by moment by moment.
Speaker B:I think another question that people have now is, especially in the political realm, is how can I be involved in healing the nation without hating the ones I disagree with?
Speaker B:I mean, if anything characterizes the American political world now, it's a overabundance of hate for people that are different than us, an overabundance of people of hate.
Speaker B:And that, you know, while I think some of my MAGA friends have made that a true spiritual discipline of hate, it's also on the left side of the street, too.
Speaker B:I'm a follower of one of my teachers was Howard Thurman, the great African American mystic.
Speaker B:And he believed one of the mentors of Martin Luther King.
Speaker B:And Thurman believed that we have to challenge those we perceive to be oppressors.
Speaker B:But we also have to challenge them for the sake of their souls as well as our own, that injustice hurts our souls.
Speaker B:And that as we challenge somebody's political viewpoints, we need also to see that they are God's children, too.
Speaker B:We need to see that they're God's children.
Speaker B:We may still keep the heat up, but we don't do it in a way that diminishes them, dehumanize them, or destroys them.
Speaker B:I quote regularly that song by the who.
Speaker B:I can't think of the name, but I know the quote.
Speaker B:Here comes the maybe it's I won't be, we won't be fooled again.
Speaker B:Maybe that's it.
Speaker B:Here comes, Here comes the new boss, just like the old boss.
Speaker B:That is, if we have the politics of division and hate or the theologies of division and hate, when we get into power, we'll use those to destroy our opponents, regardless of how well intended we are.
Speaker B:I'm sure that Chairman Mao had great intentions, but the Cultural Revolution was highly destructive.
Speaker B:I'm sure that Stalin had great intentions.
Speaker B:I'm sure that many Christians in the United States have great intentions.
Speaker B:But when they neglect the holiness of the person right in front of you, and I think that's one of the aspects of universalism.
Speaker B:If God's revelation is to all of us, neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, old nor young, then all of those categories are holy categories.
Speaker B:And we have to act, and I keep reminding myself, too, we have to act as if God's holiness is in the folks we disagree with most.
Speaker B:I mean, those are questions that come to me often.
Speaker B:You know, I ponder the whole question of the Second Coming.
Speaker B:And I, of course, grew up in a world in which, you know, many people assume that Jesus was coming next week or the week after or two weeks from now.
Speaker B:And they have one thing in common.
Speaker B:They've universally been wrong.
Speaker B:The what I prefer is a millisecond coming softly and tenderly.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm an old hymn singer, so softly and tenderly Jesus is calling each moment of the day Jesus is calling.
Speaker B:The coming of Christ can't just be once, sometime way in the future.
Speaker B:It has to be now.
Speaker B:The call what does Paul say?
Speaker B:Now is the time of salvation.
Speaker B:You know, the minute you step on the path.
Speaker B:I'm starting to preach here, I realize, but the minute you step on the path, you're there, you're there.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:All the signs of the times are pointing to that right or Some other day.
Speaker B:But this is the day that God has made.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker A:I think we're really finding out here is that there is a wide open door for Bruce Everly to start the charismatic process movement.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, you know, one of the things.
Speaker B:I wrote a little book once upon a time.
Speaker B:It's called Process Theology and the Revival we need.
Speaker B:And it was inspired by the movie the Jesus Revolution, if you remember that movie.
Speaker B: rew up in the Bay area in the: Speaker B:I'm not using a diminutive or derogative, although I once stumbled upon a Christian being in the 60s where people raised their hands up in the air and said maranatha as part of rapture practice.
Speaker B:I was just trying to go to see a Grateful Dead concert in Golden Gate park, and I came upon the wrong.
Speaker B:Love in and be in.
Speaker B:But, you know, what would have happened if the Jesus movement had been welcomed and embraced by more progressive churches rather than Calvary Chapel?
Speaker B:What would have happened?
Speaker B:Because, you know, a lot of people, and I'm using people like Doug Padgett.
Speaker B:I don't know if you know Doug Padgett.
Speaker B:Good evangelical or ex evangelical.
Speaker B:He's still evangelical.
Speaker B:My book, you know, became a Christian and then realized there was a bait and switch, you know, that God was love.
Speaker B:Until you went to church and then discovered all these footnotes.
Speaker B:What if there had been a wider theology that welcomed the Jesus movement?
Speaker B:What if.
Speaker B:And that was a terrible mistake.
Speaker B:I think that in not reaching out to the Jesus movement from more progressive and mainstream churches, we didn't have a good theology of evangelism because we felt that evangelism involved sort of cornering people and selling them something that they may or may not have wanted.
Speaker B:Proselytizing when evangelism is hospitality and welcome and adapting ourselves to bring them in and share the good news that God loves you.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Nothing you can do about it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Oh, man, yeah.
Speaker C:Something my papa always say I love you Ain't nothing you can do about it.
Speaker C:But we also have a friend on our network.
Speaker C:So one of the other shows, the Some Joyful Noises podcast.
Speaker C:Christian Ashley, who is more conservative, did an episode of Reviewing the song Jesus Freak and he actually talks about the.
Speaker C:Some of the history of where that term came from.
Speaker C:Really interesting.
Speaker C:For those who want to check that out, I highly recommend.
Speaker C:But Dr.
Speaker C:Epperly, you know, one thing we.
Speaker C:We always like to do on our show before we wrap up, we like to ask our guests if they could provide a single tangle action that would help better engender Christian unity.
Speaker C:A lot about the spirit.
Speaker C:And early on, you kind of mentioned how we're already one in the spirit.
Speaker C:I want to make it a little bit more poignant.
Speaker C:What is something practical or tangible that our listeners could call do right this second that would help them be more part of that spirit that already unites us?
Speaker B:I think that's a key issue, and we're wrestling with this in our church right now.
Speaker B:Wrestling because I go to a very progressive congregation and a number of the people in our church are trying.
Speaker B:How do we reach out to more conservative churches?
Speaker B:There must be some common ground between us that we can reach out and get beyond the divide.
Speaker B:For me, I think, first of all, it comes with a sense of humility, you know, recognizing that we don't have all the answers, that the far horizon of truth is God's truth, and we have to be, first of all, humble.
Speaker B:I think the second is to look beyond the slogans.
Speaker B:Look beyond the slogans.
Speaker B:You know, many of our Christian brothers and sisters who we might disagree with politically are struggling with senses of feelings of disenfranchisement, exclusion.
Speaker B:And we have to recognize that.
Speaker B:We have to recognize that.
Speaker B:I think we have to find the places we conjoined with one another and be willing both to listen as well as to share.
Speaker B:I think among people who have regular spiritual practices, there's more common ground, maybe between the prayers that might be more mystically inclined and the prayers that might be more Pentecostally inclined.
Speaker B:Because in some sense, the notion of transcendence is baked into both of those.
Speaker B:The notion that there's more to life than what meets the eye.
Speaker B:The notion that God is a living God that's doing new things.
Speaker B:And, you know, if God's mercies are new every morning in the context of God's faithfulness, then we can be open to a new image.
Speaker B:So I'd say listening.
Speaker B:I'd say getting beyond the sense that we have all the answers, trusting God and not our own understandings of things.
Speaker B:Things.
Speaker B:Trusting that God has a bigger vision in us and is calling us to more.
Speaker A:Yeah, all right.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What changes in the world if everyone starts listening and trusting, like you say, if we all start attending the.
Speaker A:The Bruce Epperly universe and seeing each other as persons?
Speaker B:I mean, I think abstractions, whether we're dealing with sexual identity or race or ethnicity, or a nation of origin.
Speaker B:If they're they.
Speaker B:If they're they, they're abstractions, we can do anything we want with them.
Speaker B:If they're concrete people who are seeking the same wholeness deep down as we are, as Augustine would say, our hearts are restless, all of ours, then, by gum, we can see that we're really deep down still on a similar journey to faith and God's in our lives.
Speaker A:All right, I like that.
Speaker A:So before we wrap up, we always like to do what we call the God moment, which is where we just ask if you've seen God recently or where you've seen God recently, whether that be in a moment of worship or a blessing or a challenge or whatever it might be.
Speaker A:And I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us enough time to think about our God moment for the week.
Speaker A:So, Josh, do you have God moment for us?
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:A few different ones.
Speaker C:I'm trying to figure out which one I'll stick with.
Speaker C:I'm going to stick with this weekend.
Speaker C:I already mentioned him earlier.
Speaker C:Christian Ashley.
Speaker C:He does a bunch of podcast stuff with us.
Speaker C:He's on systematic ecology with us.
Speaker C:Our friendship basically just dates back to the moment I realized he also liked Doctor who.
Speaker C:And just time to time, we get to watch it together.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:There you are.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Not very often being so far apart, you know, physically.
Speaker C:But this weekend, he's coming over for the season finale for this current season that I've been loving.
Speaker C:And I have challenged myself because I love to cook, to not worry about if it's weird or not, to make a really good dinner for me and my old college buddy instead of like, oh, we'll get take out like normal guys.
Speaker C:Actually, I want to make a really good dinner.
Speaker C:That's my plan.
Speaker C:Some steak, some potato au gratin.
Speaker C:Have some stuff.
Speaker A:I'm doing the same thing tonight when we're done here.
Speaker C:Oh, I thought you were going to say this weekend.
Speaker C:You're like, actually, I pre Saturday.
Speaker C:So I'm coming.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm showing up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which, I mean, you can.
Speaker C:But I used to work.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker A:But I'll go next.
Speaker A:Dr.
Speaker A:Epperly for me.
Speaker A:I just turned 26 yesterday.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, Big day, man.
Speaker A:I am Quarternarian.
Speaker B:Yeah, there you are.
Speaker A:Past it.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And it's not different, but I always thought people were joking when they were like, one day you're gonna wake up and everything's gonna be sore.
Speaker A:And that's how you know you made it.
Speaker A:And I didn't think 26 was the number I thought the number was gonna come way later.
Speaker C:I mean, you work in food, so that probably sped the process up a little bit.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, I thought I had a few more years before I was waking up.
Speaker A:My whole body was sore, but here we are.
Speaker C:Sucks, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah, it does.
Speaker A:Well, it's just a one off years.
Speaker B:On you, I think, TJ So I would say that the again, one of my reasons, besides the fact I've always been an early riser for going out on a saunter in the morning, is just simply to note the beauty of it all.
Speaker B:I live in suburban Washington, D.C.
Speaker B:and I try to go out before it gets busy.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And we have woods around our home.
Speaker B:And as I'm walking on a trail through the woods around our home, you know, just noticing, listening, how are the birds this morning?
Speaker B:And at least one of my morning mantras is from the psalmist.
Speaker B:This is the day that God has made and I will rejoice and be glad in it.
Speaker B:The sense that again, I'm a big adherent of the book of Philippians.
Speaker B:I think it's one of the great books in scripture.
Speaker B:I wrote a book on Philippians.
Speaker B:One of the other claims to fame I have is I do a weekly lectionary for the Adventurous Lectionary on Patheos.
Speaker B:But I've also ventured out of my comfort zone.
Speaker B:I've written about 12 books on the Bible and a couple on Philippians.
Speaker B:And Paul is in prison and he writes Philippians and he says, you know, rejoice.
Speaker B:Again, I say, rejoice.
Speaker B:And of course, he's in the prison cell in Philippi and he is singing and praying.
Speaker B:And I think as long as we have a song in our heart and joy in our heart, the powers that we might feel are upon us, cannot defeat us.
Speaker B:How can we keep from singing?
Speaker A:All right, so, yeah.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:Was that your God moment today or you had.
Speaker B:That was my God moment.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:I love the beauty of the day.
Speaker B:And the beauty even it's.
Speaker B:I'm 46 years older than you, so you've got a few.
Speaker B:God 72.
Speaker B:The sense that I woke up, I'm alive, I'm moving, I'm thinking, I'm seeing, I'm breathing.
Speaker B:What more could I ask for today than that?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hey, no one has put the beauty of the world as their God moment more than I have.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I get a lot more chances than most people, but still.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So thanks for your time.
Speaker A:It's not cheating.
Speaker A:Thank you for your time, Reverend Dr.
Speaker A:Bruce Gordon.
Speaker A:Epperly one day, hopefully my name might be.
Speaker B:That's what my mama called me.
Speaker B:So Bruce will work, right?
Speaker A:One day my name might be that long.
Speaker A:We'll see.
Speaker A:If you're listening, you enjoyed the episode.
Speaker A:Please consider sharing with a friend, share with an enemy, share with your cousins.
Speaker A:And if you're listening on YouTube, hit like hit subscribe.
Speaker A:I would greatly appreciate that.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Also want to encourage you guys to listen to some of the other shows on the Amazaw podcast network.
Speaker C:We mentioned before some joyful noises.
Speaker C:So check that out.
Speaker C:Since I mentioned Christian Ashley a few times, I'm going to say check his podcast out.
Speaker C:Let nothing move you from for a more conservative take on the Bible.
Speaker C:But if you want a more progressive take on the Bible, you can also listen to the Bible after hours.
Speaker C:Same network and as a podcast network, all those shows there, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Check it out and we hope, we hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker A:Next week we're going to be talking with Brian Wrecker to discuss his Instagram reels on church dogma and his new book Hellbent.
Speaker A:After that we're going to have on Dr.
Speaker A:Leo Robinson, Pastor Will Rose and pending Ryan do to just discuss the similarities between sci fi stories, apocalypse stories and eschatology in the church.
Speaker A:And then we're going to be interviewing Dr.
Speaker A:Pete Link and Dr.
Speaker A:Edward Gravely about their textbook Bible 101.
Speaker A:Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.
Speaker C:Hopefully if anyone tells him about it.
Speaker A:If he ever gets invited, he might accept that.
Speaker C:Yeah, if someone sends him an invitation.
Speaker B:He'S worth the conversation, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So someone should invite him to the show and then he might show up.
Speaker A:Needs to invite him onto our show.
Speaker C:And we'll talk to him, not us.
Speaker A:Can't be bothered.
Speaker C:Yeah, too much work.
