Understanding the Wisdom in Daniel: A Deep Dive into the books of Proverbs and Daniel

TJ Blackwell: 00:00:23

Proverbs 15, 28, 33 in the Christian Standard Bible say, the mind of the righteous person thinks before answering, but the mouth of the wicked blurts out evil things. The Lord is far from wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous. Bright eyes cheer the heart. Good news strengthens the bones.

One who listens to life giving rebukes will be at home among the wise. Anyone who ignores discipline despises himself. But whoever listens to correction acquires good sense.

The fear of the Lord is what wisdom teaches, and humility comes before honor. In this pricope, the writer is describing righteousness and wisdom compared to the folly of those who are prideful and quick to answer.

Dr. Ernest Lucas, how might the wisdom of this proverb help the church embrace unity together in our own times?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:01:11

Well, the key proverb of that or that, it seems to me, is verse 28. Verse 28, that the mind of the righteous ponders or thinks how to answer the mouth of the wicked cause our evil.

fact, there's another proverb: 18:13

Is the folly and the shame that we need to listen carefully and then think before we speak. And I think that's very important in building trust, understanding, community. And that's a very important thing that we have to do in the church.

So often I think we tend to be concerned to say what we want to say and to get our word in, and we don't really listen. And then what we say may not be relevant, it may not be helpful, and that's not the right way to go.

So the importance of listening and thinking in your communication with people.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:17

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's something I can work on anyway.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:02:22

And it's interesting that you quoted the whole pericope as a group of verses, because people often think that the book of Proverbs seems to be just a random collection of short sentences, at least the Proverbs bit from chapter 10 onwards. But in fact they do fall into groups which I would call clusters, which do have a relationship.

And this was probably partly to help people remember them. And that little group that you read, it's about what we do with parts of our body, if you like.

Verse 28 and so on, is about what we do with our mouth. The mouth of the wicked cause that evil. But we, we shouldn't.

Our mind should ponder before we speak and God hears our prayers, which we use our mouth for. Then it talks about our use of our eyes, the light of the eyes. Rejoice the heart. I think that means to.

To greet people with a smile and to be welcoming to them and so on. Encourages them. And then it talks about the ear, the ears. Ear that hears. Wholesome admonition will lodge with the wise.

And those who don't use their ears properly, who ignore instruction, they are going to be in problem. So that little group says, use your mouth, your eyes and your ears properly.

And then it ends up with reminding us that the fear of the Lord is the instruction and wisdom.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:46

Well, I'm good at using my mouth. I just. I gotta. Those other.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:51

Yeah, one of the best.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:59

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. But if it's not, that's totally cool because we're unity podcast. We.

We can't be in competition with other unity podcasts. That's like. I don't know. That's like Heroes who Hate heroes. Doesn't. Doesn't work.

I, of course, am Joshua Noel and I am only here to introduce other people. Not really, but sort of. Of course. Always a pleasure to introduce the co host with the absolute most. We just say co most. I realize that's incorrect.

He's the one with the most. Other than, you know, God. The one and only TJ Tybeers. One Blackwell. How's it going? Great. Yeah.

And we're here with a esteemed guest, an author of one of my own favorite biblical commentaries on the Book of Daniel, who's also been or has worked on commentary with the. On the book of proverbs. So Dr. Ernest Lucas is here with us today. He is the Vice Principal emeritus at Bristol Baptist College.

we mentioned was published in: 2015

I usually make TJ things that are difficult because I'm me. I'm good at using my wealth. It doesn't mean I use it well.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:17

Yeah, I would have said the same. But if you're listening here, then you should probably check out the onzop Podcast Network website.

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Check out our merch. The link to our store is also in the notes. Check that out. It's nice. It's comfy. It's understated, easy to wear or drink out of.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:47

Yeah. My two favorites. I'm still working on actually getting listed on the store where we go through spring, and they've been giving me a hard time.

One of them, though, my personal favorite. So it has just the whole church podcast on the front, Real simple in the back, has kind of styled the joke of what happens when.

So when people come through.

But it's like a Southern Baptist, a process theologian, a Mennonite, you know, Lutheran meth, You know, all the, you know, long list of people we've had on the show sit down and talk. And then, of course, the answer is the whole church podcast. Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice shirt. It just.

For some reason, I'm struggling to get them to list it. I don't know.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:23

It's beach, probably.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:25

Anyway, you guys know one thing we do always do on this show, because it's impossible to be in division, you have to have unity when you're being as silly as I like to be. But we're going to start with a silly question. I've been trying to make them slightly more relevant lately, and I feel like I did a decent job today.

If there were to be an extensive comic book run adapting the Book of Daniel and we could give any input we wanted to the creative team, you know, whether it's about art, style, character work, whatever, what would it be? I think real specifically, I. I would point to.

This is really like super specific and gonna show my nerd colors, which, hey, go to systematic ecology if you want to hear more nerd stuff. Because we do talk about fandoms and stuff over there.

There's a John Hendrix writes kind of like half graphic novel, half biography of different people. And one of them, he does the relationship of Tolkien and C.S.

lewis, and what he does in that is like, the colors slowly get more dull as it goes through. And I would like to see if we're going to do a comic run on this.

Maybe that like, first, like chapter in a bit that's written in Hebrew is like real colorful. And then that middle part of the stories that are all in Aramaic, we do a little bit duller.

And maybe the graphic novel actually helps us visualize what we don't get in the English version of the book. I think it'd be kind of cool.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:47

Interesting. Yeah, I was. I was thinking more of like a release schedule thing.

I wanted to come out not all at once, but, you know, quickly, like build it up, story half, release it week by week.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:58

Oh, see, okay, that Works. Yeah, I was thinking maybe like the story half and then chapter seven on its own, and then the rest.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:04

I want Rob Leafield as the artist, the primary artist. That would look really stupid and I would enjoy it a lot.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:11

I was thinking Scotty Young, but I always think Dr. Ernest Lucas, I know you're probably thinking that we're just some silly nerd right now, but if you were to provide any, like I advice to the comic book run on the book of Daniel, what would you say?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:08:26

Well, I think. I think a comic book run and Daniel would go quite well because there is a lot of humor in it in the story. Certainly one to six.

You miss some in English because some of it is the result of wordplay which doesn't translate well from Aramaic or Hebrew to English. Real unfortunate satire is quite common because they constantly. The writer is constantly undermining and making fun of the king and the court.

And I think some good actors could really bring that out.

For instance, just at the start of chapter two, when the king comes to his courtiers and wants them to interpret his dream, it goes like this, if I can sort of put it a bit in the satire, the king says to them, tell me the dream. Tell us the dream and we will tell you and interpret it. No, you tell me the dream and interpret it or else I'll tell you limb from limb.

Yes, please, tell us the dream, we'll interpret it. You're stalling. Tell me the dream. We can't tell you the dream. And so it goes on.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:31

Sounds like a Monty Python bit.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:09:33

And it leads up to the point where the king just goes over the. He goes over the top and he loses his, his temper and that, you know, he's shown to be a bit of an idiot because he, he goes over the top.

And I think there's quite a number of things like that which could be brought out by good actors or good writers. And there's another little bit there in the start of chapter two because we're told it's the second year of Nebuchadnezzar.

Now, in the first year Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel and his friends were sent off to university, if you like, to train. Natisa. The second year. Some people don't find that a problem because at the end of chapter one they finish the course and are top of the class.

But I think this is a flashback that when Daniel is still only. What would you call it in the American system, not a freshman second year, a first year, second year or second year students.

It's Daniel, who is able to tell the dream whereas his professors couldn't. They've come to the king and they fell completely.

So I think lots of things like that appear in Daniel that could really be brought out by good writing or good acting and make it a good comic story.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:42

Now, I almost want, like, a deadpool writer to write this. Alyssa Wong, a friend of ours. Come on, let's go get dead. Let's get this Daniel.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:50

Go get the rights to Daniel.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:52

But, yeah, yeah. So we have a friend, Christian Ashley, also runs Let Nothing Move you.

It's a podcast on the network, also part of cismic geology with us, et cetera, et cetera. A good friend of mine who's going to be really mad if I don't ask this question. So we're going to start off, get this out of the way.

Dr. Lucas, where do you stand on the debate over whether or not Daniel is a real person?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:11:11

Well, I'm sure Daniel's a real person, but I do think we need to understand the sort of stories that are about him in Daniel 1 to 6. And we might tend to assume with our sort of Western background is this sort of historical autobiography. But I don't think that's true.

The stories fit into a group of stories that are known in the ancient near east and were very popular. They're called court tales because they were about the king's court.

I mean, in those days, one of the most exotic, I suppose, places that people could think about was the court, where you've got a lot of rich and powerful and wealthy people who get into mixing in context of one another. And the courtiers were the kind of celebs of the day, like our film stars today.

And there are numerous stories about the ballad writers, and the storytellers wrote stories about them. And Daniel 1 to 6 fits into that sort of pattern. And we know that many.

Some of the courtiers who appear in these stories were actual people because their names occur in what you might call more historical records from Babylon and so on. So there's stories about real people, probably most of them. But they are written for three reasons.

I think one of them is they're written to entertain. I said in Daniel there's a lot of humor. We may miss that. It's this entertaining, it's a good, enjoyable story.

But they're also there to edify, to build up people, because they are stories about goodies and baddies. There's the good courtier and then there's the bad courtier.

And the story is told in such A way as to encourage the reader or the hearer to identify with the good courtier, to model themselves on that and not on the bad courtier. And then, interestingly, there's a smaller group of.

Within these stories which are about a foreign courtier, which of course, is what's the case in Daniel?

And those seem to be written in order to encourage people to retain their ethnic identity in the foreign situation in which they find themselves and to be positive about that whilst at the same time being positive about their new situation. And I think that's the case in Daniel. So, remember, that's the point of the story.

It's not to give us detailed historical information about Daniel, it's to carry over this message about how to live your life as a good, moral person.

And if you are in a foreign situation, retain your personal identity and integrity, which, of course, in Daniel means retaining your commitment to the God of Israel.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:56

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a similar reason. I know you're not saying this wasn't literal, but I think that's a similar reason with.

It comes like the court drama why CS Lewis didn't think the Book of Job was literal for similar reasons. But, yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:12

So beyond that, more seriously, we wanted to ask some basic quick questions about how people should approach these books of the Bible. So what is Daniel? Is it a story? Is it an allegory? Is it prophecy? What are we talking about?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:14:28

Well, as I've already said, I think Daniel 1:6 are stories, but they're not allegories. They are about a real person. But they're written for the reasons that I gave to entertain, to edify and to encourage God's people.

If they find themselves in a situation where they are in the minority, under pressure to remain firm in their commitment to their God. The second part with the prophecies, they are prophecies. They're quite unparalleled in the rest of the Hebrew Bible.

They're a different sort of prophecy from what we find in the. What might call the major prophets and the minor prophets. And so they're a bit harder for us to understand and cope with, but they are.

They are their prophetic words from God.

TJ Blackwell: 00:15:20

All right, so what are the proverbs? What do they mean when they say wisdom? And is that the same as what we mean when we say wisdom today?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:15:30

Well, that's a very good question to think about, because so often our understanding of particular terms depends on our own culture and our own upbringing. If you want to know what wisdom means in the Old Testament, I Mean, for start, we can look at some of the people who are called to be wise.

And interestingly, the first people to be called as wise people in the Old Testament are the people who are involved in the building of the tabernacle. People like metal workers, woodworkers, weavers, garment makers, embroiderers, they're called wise.

They have the spirit of the Lord gives them wisdom to do that task. And then in Ezekiel, Ezekiel calls people who navigate ships as wise.

And in 1 Kings, of course, 3, when Solomon is asked what he wants, he wants to be given the ability to rule well. And God gives him wisdom. So immediately we can see wisdom is a very practical thing in the Old Testament.

And if you look at what's in the book of Proverbs, I mean, it's about marriage and the family life, dealing with friends and neighbors, concern for the poor and the needy, commerce, agriculture, the law courts and so on, there's a lot more. And so for me, it seems to me the way to sum it up is to say wisdom in the Old Testament is basically the ability to cope with the demands of life.

I suppose in modern terms, we might say it's about life skills. But it's important to add to that two other things. One is that it's very clear in Proverbs that there is also a very strong moral dimension.

The opening verses of Proverbs say that it's written in order to help us to grow in righteousness, justice and equity. And of course, the keynote that runs through Proverbs is that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge or wisdom.

So it's also a spiritual thing about commitment to God. So I think that that sums up the biblical view of wisdom.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:32

Yeah, yeah, I like that.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:17:33

We also need to understand what is a Hebrew proverb.

I don't know what proverbs are in American culture, I suppose we used to look, we used this, we to used learn and deal with English proverbs when I was at sort of the, what we call primary school in England, sort of under 10. And I suppose to some degree we thought proverbs were good advice.

Well, that can run you into, into trouble with some of the Old Testament proverbs when you read them, because proverbs in the Old Testament are about the way life really is. They, they say what, they're not laws, they're not good advice.

They are descriptions of what usually happens, not what must happen, but what usually happens in life. And they encourage you to follow certain patterns because those are the patterns that God blesses. And that's the important thing.

But they're very brief. I would say that a proverb is something like an observation on life crystallized in a brief, memorable form.

An observation on life crystallized in a brief, memorable form. But because they brief, we have to use them very carefully. That a proverb depends, understand, Proverb depends, depends on particular contexts.

And the writer to proverbs reminds us of that. Because sometimes they put in proverbs about the misuse of proverbs. For instance, the legs of a disabled person hang limp.

So does the proverb in the mouth of a fool. So just quoting a proverb isn't good enough. It might be. You used it totally wrong. In fact, it can be harmful.

Like a thorn bush brandished in the hand of a drunkard is a proverb in the mouth of a fool. They can do more harm than good if they're not used wisely. So you have to have the wisdom to know when to use them and that.

And in fact, you therefore can get proverbs that are seemingly quite contradictory. I mean, we know this in English proverbs. To some people who are very impulsive, we'll say, look before you leap.

But to someone else who never seems to make up their mind, we will say to them that he who hesitates is lost, and so on. And in proverbs we find the same. And so you've got to seek wisdom to use proverbs rightly. And that's very important. In fact, a classic case in the.

Which I think the combined compilers of proverbs put there just to warn us about this.

If Proverbs 26:4 to 5 answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him, says verse four, and then verse five says, answer a food fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes, one is saying that you need to discern the situation. Where is it? Why should you. When is it wrong to get into debate with a fool? It'll only make you look foolish.

But when do you need to stand up and answer the fool so he recognizes his foolishness? Depends on the person and the context.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:07

Yeah, yeah. So I have a question. Couple questions real quick then. One is, I'm actually kind of curious how social media kind of impacts how we view this.

Because if it is just you, and in that particular scenario, the fool, then it's like, okay, it matters whether or not he's going to receive it.

But in an age where stuff like, I apologize for getting political with everybody, but, you know, Donald J. Trump, the President of the United States says plenty of foolish stuff pretty publicly.

I do wonder, is there any wisdom in maybe standing up against something foolish said so that others know that that's wrong, even if it's never going to impact the man who said it?

I also wonder a lot of people kind of do this thing with psalms and proverbs where they say that's descriptive, not prescriptive, so we don't have to do the things that it says. It's just kind of there to let us know what's going on or how people felt. Yeah, I'm kind of curious on your take on that, too.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:22:05

Yes, there are provers about the importance of using honesty, rebuking people so that they are made to recognize, as you might say, as you've said, it may well be equally or more important that other people who are around recognize what is said is being foolish. And so there are pros like, better an open rebuke than a love that is hidden.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, profuse to the kisses of an enemy, that it's a good thing and helpful to people sometimes in the right situation to use the open rebuke, even if it seems harmful to the person at the time.

When they dwell on it, they will hopefully recognize that that was something that needed to be said and that one of our responsibilities as God's people is to bring people to recognize God's truth.

And sometimes that means pointing out to them when what they are saying is not God's truth, when it's contrary to it, doing it in a diplomatic way as far as we can, but being firm about it.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:22

Yeah, I like that. That's good.

TJ Blackwell: 00:23:24

Okay, so there are a few more questions about how Daniel might be relevant for the church today before we move on to a little bit more about Proverbs, which is we're working on, you know, more recently.

But in the Book of Daniel, there are many ways to split the sections up, but these stories in the book seem to be showing multiple kings come to power and pass later. The prophecies tell of many kingdoms or nations coming to power in passing, revealing that only God's kingdom will last.

So in our time and culture, there are many in the American church who are either advocating what they call Christian nationalism.

Others argue Christians shouldn't be involved in politics at all, though how might the message and stories of Daniel speak to these modern conflicts that we go through in the church?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:24:13

Well, I have since I certainly once, since you might say, discovered the Book of Daniel, have found Daniel Chapter one in Particular quite challenging and have tried to emulate, if you like, Daniel there. He is put in a situation where he is under pressure, I think basically you could say under pressure to become a good Babylonian.

He has his name changed, as do his friends, from names that exalt the God of Israel. The names, we don't know the meaning of all four of them, but they seem to be names that exalt or refer to the names of Babylonian gods.

They are to be given an education in the language and literature of the Chaldeans, and we know what that involved. It will mean a thorough induction into the history, the culture and the religion of Babylon. And I suppose you might say, almost as a bribe.

They are given the best food from the king's table and the promise of a job if they will become good Babylonians. Now, Daniel refuses to take the food and wine from the king's table. There is some debate about why that might be.

Some people say, well, it was being offered to idols.

I don't think that's true, because what we know about Babylon at the time, the food offered to the God could not be eaten by anyone except the priests and the king in person, not anyone else. So I don't think that was it. It might be to do with.

Something to do with the Mosaic food laws, because obviously the meat would not have been slaughtered in the way that the food laws required. But the food laws say nothing about wine.

But I think that the real reason he refuses it is the term that's used to refer to the king's food in the Hebrew wine. It's a Hebrew word, pathbag, which is takeover, from Persian, I think, but it does specifically mean the royal food of the king.

And in chapter 11, there's an interesting verse which makes it clear that people who've taken that sort of food are expected to be totally loyal to the king. And it's reprehensible if they are not loyal to him and if they rebel against him. And so I think that that food, taking that food, Daniel sees is a.

Is a way of cementing a covenant, if you like, with the king, that you'll always be under the king's authority, if you like, and that you'll be loyal to the king.

And at that point, he decides he has to draw a line that personally, he's prepared to understand the Babylonian culture and understand Babylonian religion. He's even prepared to serve the king, but he's not prepared to be totally committed in a covenant way with the king and accept his authority.

So he draws a line now, he does it courteously and at that point he doesn't make a big fuss about it, if you like, but he is quite firm that he's going to keep his personal integrity as someone who's in covenant relationship with the God of Israel, and that's where he's going to stand. So for his personal integrity, he does that. And then throughout the stories we see that's true.

Sometimes doing that does mean you have to stand up in public, as in Chapter three, his three friends refused to bow down to the idol, and in chapter six, where he refuses not to pray to his God and so on. So sometimes you can't do it diplomatically.

But I think the lesson I've drawn from that over the years is that there's two ways of responding to this situation, of living as we do in this increasingly and strongly secular, in some ways, increasingly, certainly in Britain, anti Christian culture, even one way is assimilation, that you go with the flow, you just let it take you and you lose your distinctiveness or you can withdraw from it.

But if you do that, you are going to lose any chance to influence and change that culture, or what I call principled involvement, which is the way that Daniel goes. He is going to be as involved as fully as he can in that culture in serving the king.

But he has got his lines that he will not cross, which are a way of his personal integrity. And also to make it clear to people around him that he is not just a good Babylonian, he is a faithful Jew and worshiper of the God of Israel.

Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:51

So you kind of mentioned like this kind of anti Christian bias in our culture today. A lot of people are referring to modern Western culture as a post Christian culture.

Is that kind of, I think, what you called steadfast involvement that Daniel did. Do you think that's a good model for us to follow in the Western church today?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:29:10

I think it is. I think it has to be.

I mean, it seems to be the kind of New Testament parallel to this is what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount about we are to be salt of the earth and light of the world, keeping our distinctiveness from the world. And we need to do that in order to, as far as we can, banish the darkness, deal with the.

Deal with the, I suppose you might say, growing infection, salt being used to combat infections in the ancient world before they had antibiotics and so on. And so that's part of our responsibility as Christians that we seek to do that.

I worked for eight years with Reverend John Stott, whom some People in America I know are well aware of who he was. He's been dead a few years now, but he founded an institution called the Institute Contemporary Christianity in London.

And we would teach these sort of things that I've been saying to you about from Daniel and some of them out and a practical example, if you like, one of our students came back.

He'd been on a 12 week course with us and he came back, he'd been in the advertising industry, took time out, came to the course, went back into advertising and he came to see me some months later and I said to him, what difference has been on this course made to you? He said, well, let me tell you a short story. My boss called me in one day and he said, look, he said, we've got a problem with this account.

And as he described it, it was quite clear that we had messed up. But he wanted me to go to the customer and to, if you like, try and put the blame on the customer rather than admit it.

And he turned around to his boss and he said, look here, boss, you know, I'm a Christian and as a Christian I don't tell lies. And that's important for our work relationship because you know you can trust me. If you know I can lie to a customer, you'll know I can lie to you.

So let's find another way of solving this problem, which is what he did. I'm not sure how he handled it, but he certainly didn't do what his boss originally said he should do.

And to me that's a sort of practical example, the kind of thing that Christians face in work situations and in other situations. Not rarely, but sometimes, quite often, we have to find quick prayer to God and find a wise way of coping with it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:36

Yeah, yeah, like that. Yeah. You call it, you know, a little wise lie. Yeah, Nothing crazy.

But there's one more written question for Daniel and then the many, many thoughts rattling around in Josh's head that might come out. But as far as written, another area of frequent dispute in our church today is over eschatological disagreements.

Do you think understanding Daniel's prophecies would help better solve these disputes or would that just make it harder for us?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:32:07

I said that the prophecies in Daniel are in a different form from prophecies in the rest of the Old Testament.

I think that's important to recognize the prophecies elsewhere they are on the whole, if you like, they apply to a single situation and if you like a single event or outcome, it's very nowhere else you've got the sort of thing you have in Daniel, where you have these, if you like, lengthy surveys of history, such as in the visions in chapter two of the statue and in chapter seven of the beasts from the water, and then in chapter 11.

So what's going on here, I think, and the fact that people have tried to dig into the nitty gritty, if you like, and identify which of the four empires or, you know, what are the beasts in, how do we identify the beasts?

And so on, that is what has led to disagreement and acrimony so often because people latch on to what they think is the right interpretation for them. Well, I'm prepared to listen to other people's interpretation and so on.

But it seems to me that the thing that can keep us together as Christians with these visions and are the things that's really profitable is to say what is the theology here that's been put across in these visions?

That in chapter two, for instance, in that vision, the emphasis is on the beginning and the end, on the golden head, which is Nebuchadnezzar, and the end, which is the stone that comes and destroys the. The structure. And with regard to Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel makes it very clear that all that Nebuchadnezzar has comes from God.

All that he has done is success, has not. Has come from God, that they are not his own doing.

And this is making the point that when kings do, even if he's, if you like, in a sense, almost unknowingly trust themselves to God, that's when they prosper and it's good for their people, they rule. History is going to reach its climax, that when the stone comes, it's a stone that's not cut out by human hands.

And the imagery of the stone, of course, goes back in the Old Testament. God is often referred to as a stone and as a mountain. Stone's cut out of a mountain and you have the mountain of the house of the Lord and so on.

So clearly the mountain and the stone imagery is talking about the rule of God being established, and it is God who's going to establish that it will be. It will be on earth.

Stone does not destroy the earth, it destroys the human rulers, the kingdoms, and it's God's sovereignty that is brought into the world, and that's it will always belong to the people of God. That that's what we need to take away from that.

And we can hopefully all agree on this trust, this confidence that God has a purpose and a plan in history will be Achieved our part is to be loyal and trust in God. And I think what people often miss the theology because they concern with the detail, which are the four kingdoms? What are they?

So what difference does that make to your spiritual life? How does that help you with your discipleship?

And when you go to the vision in Daniel 7 with the beasts, strange, weird beasts and so on, I think there's a background to that in Babylonian culture, but we won't go into that. But the important thing is the picture of the raging waters with the beasts in it would have been recognized by anyone in Babylon.

That's the Babylonian creation story. And in fact, the Hebrews knew that. You find it in Psalm 74. The same imagery is used of God's creation, Israel's creation. What's that saying?

That there's something here about God's purpose for creation.

And then you move later on in the chapter, you get this figure one, like a son of man, a human being to whom is given sovereignty and an everlasting sovereignty. But that takes us back to Genesis 1:26 28, God's purpose for humans that he put us on the earth to have dominion under him and in his name.

And so what that vision is saying is God's purpose for all humanity, not just for the church. God's purpose for all humanity will find its fulfillment. And yes, Jesus takes up that title, if you like, of son of man in his.

He's the one who makes this begin to become true for all humanity, because he is God become man. And there's a tremendous theology there to think about. It links salvation and creation.

It links our responsibility, if you like, spiritual responsibility for people's souls with our responsibility for the physical earth, our ecological responsibility for the rest of creation, the creatures in the earth.

And that's what we can all latch on, I hope together and agree with and work on, even if we can't fully agree on how we understand or interpret the individual beasts.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:07

Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. I will add on to that and not ask a question.

But I do think everyone listening, you know, a lot of times you hear people talk about, like, demonology or like, look up Satan and like, call the antagonist of the Bible.

Like how people do Disney villains for some reason, I think similar to, like, if you really pay attention to Batman stories, Arkham and Gotham are way more interesting than any of the actual bad guys. Read the Bible and look at the theological implications of every time Babel or Babylon is used. Way more interesting than Lucifer, I promise.

Yeah, but with that, we want to Go ahead and move on to Proverbs, since that's some of your more recent work you mentioned earlier. It kind of teaches timeless wisdom for us, all stuff about humility, patience, listening, etc.

Is there anything in your studies that maybe stands out to you that might be particularly helpful for the church concerning the pursuit of ecumenical reconciliation in our current times?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:38:03

Well, I think the importance in Proverbs of how we use language, how we use speech is so. And people often think that the Bible, that the types of sins the Bible says most about are sexual sins. It's not.

I am sure that the sins of speech get far more attention in the Bible as a whole than sexual sins. And certainly that's true in Proverbs. It's been estimated that 20% of the proverbs in the Book of Proverbs are about how we use speech.

And if you stop to think about it, we can understand that what is it that distinguishes us from the rest of the creatures? It's our ability to speak and communicate with another that enables us to build community in a way that no other creatures can.

And of course, it's what enables us also to build a relationship with God. And so it's vitally important how we use speech.

And in terms of ecumenical dialogue, if you like, and bringing churches together, it's how we use our speech that is so important. And that's where we've already talked about the importance of listening and of thinking before we speak.

And that's important when you're dialoguing with other church traditions that maybe you think you understand, but maybe you don't. You need to listen and to learn. Just as Daniel was prepared to learn about Babylonian culture so he could be effective in it.

You need to learn about other Christian cultures so that you can see, well, how can we come together, how can we work together respecting the things that we think are important in our individual traditions, but nevertheless work together and then being humble and being willing to face challenge and rebuke from other Christian traditions who say, well, why do you do things that way? And, you know, can you really defend that? And so on.

And we've got to be prepared not to take offense at that, but to say, hey, hold on, that may be a word from the Lord to me that I need to stop and to think and to understand.

Going back to those faithful other wounds of a friend, the things they say that we might think are hurtful to some extent or maybe mildly derogatory of our tradition, but we've got to take them on board and Think about them and not just respond by blowing our top or whatever.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:39

Right.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:40:40

But in particular, when it comes down to that, if you like, a very personal or individual level. I have sometimes been very upset in, in churches that one of the things, one of the bad people, bad figures of the Book of Proverbs is the gossip.

And the, the whisperer says, without wood, fire goes out. With the, with the whisperer, quarreling never ceases. And the words of the gossip are like a tasty morsel.

They go down into the inner parts of the body.

We find it unattractive, we take it on board, but those are just the things that are so harmful to community and we should have nothing to do with that.

We should make sure we are not gossips or whisperers, that we don't pass on tiny morsels, even if we wrap them up as requests for prayer for Mr. X or Mrs. Y and so on. And that we, when we see that sort of thing happening, we call it out and we don't let it go on because otherwise it will damage community.

TJ Blackwell: 00:41:45

Yeah, yeah, sure, like that.

So Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, they all show a great deal of wisdom, not compromising their beliefs, but at the same time they don't intentionally go out of the way to offend their captors.

Is it possible that that wisdom came from the same Hebrew proverbs that we have in our Bibles today, where, you know, you think they were passed down in the same way that you were talking about English proverbs are?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:42:14

Yeah, well, I should think that.

I would say that it's very likely that that is what has happened, that the corpus that we have in the Book of Proverbs, I'm sure, was used in the teaching of young people as they grew up in ancient Israel and ancient Judah, and that we can't. We're not sure what age Daniel and Solomon were when they were taken exile, but they were certainly young men by then.

I'm sure they would have had training and that training would have involve what we've got in the Book of Proverbs. Cool.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:50

Yeah. Was the Book of Proverbs written well before Daniel then, or what? What, like, time frame? Would we expect that?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:42:57

Oh, it was written over quite a lengthy time frame. If, if you look at it, we.

That it, it falls into a number of parts and at one point it says, these are the proverbs that were collected by the men of Hezekiah. So there's a group of proverbs that go back to Hezekiah, which Takes us back to 700 or so, which is well before Daniel.

And the picture we get is that different. The book is made up of different collections that were made by different people at different times.

And gradually it grew and it grew and it grew and took shape, took shape in the form that we now have it.

So yes, I'm sure that the proverbs, a good number of the proverbs, a good proportion of the proverbs we've got certainly existed before the time of Daniel.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:48

Yeah, I was really curious about the timing of all that, particularly because I think it's the book of Ezra, maybe it's Nehemiah. One of them mentions, whenever they open up the law or the word of God that people heard stuff they never heard before.

And I was always curious if it was like they had forgotten the word or did we just a lot of the books of the Bible we have, they didn't have until then or like what was going on. So time wise, I'm always curious with that exilic period, what was written and what wasn't. So that's really helpful.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:44:15

Well, certainly the picture we get is that the corpus, the Torah is more than law, it's teaching. It's the stories about the patriarchs and so on goes way, way back.

But we do find that the priests who have the responsibility of teaching this from time to time fell down on that for a long time. And so we, we read there are periods, I mean, I mentioned Hezekiah, Hezekiah was a king in his time. They, they reinstated the Passover.

I mean, the Passover had been there for centuries but had fallen out of use. And he brought it back.

And that might help us to understand why it is that at times the kings were bad kings because they weren't doing what they were supposed to. They weren't reading the law of God regularly and seeking to put it into practice. It had been forgotten.

And that partly because the priests weren't doing their job to teach the prophets, at times take the priests to task because they weren't teaching the words as they should do.

So we find that, yes, that there are times when people had forgotten large parts of what we would now call the Old Testament and it needed to be repeated and taught them again and probably brought up to date in some ways, filled out in various ways.

And that was one of the responsibilities of Ezra in the exilic situation, motivated by the fact that they recognized that a major reason they had gone into exile was because they had failed to live by the covenant. And the covenant Law. And this was the ultimate sanction that God had promised them. You go back to Deuteronomy.

God had promised them this kind of thing would happen if they didn't go on living as they should do. And so there were those like Ezra who were determined this will not happen again.

So let's reinstitute it, let's teach it again and make sure that people live by it.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:14

Yeah, yeah.

That filling in and all that kind of stuff you're mentioning, that's to me, that's why I actually really interested in like redactor criticism of Scripture and all that. I don't get on board with all of it, but I always found it really interesting.

I just want to recommend people who do find this kind of stuff really interesting and want to get nerdy with their Bible. Richard Elliot Friedman writes a book who Wrote the Bible and he gets really into red actor criticism. I don't support everything he says in it.

He's a Jewish scholar. But I think it's really good. So if you're interested in and that kind of stuff of like the background of the Bible, it's a good book.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:51

So before we move on, Dr. Lucas, is there anything else that you think our listeners might be interested in learning about you or learning about Proverbs or Daniel that we haven't covered yet?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:47:03

Well, I've mentioned one bit about me while I work in the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity that I have always had had a concern, certainly going back to my university days, of making. Trying to make sure that my Christian faith had an impact on the way I lived.

I mean, initially I was a research scientist, so applying my, my Christian faith to my work in the laboratory and so on, and encouraging other Christians to do the same. And that was the mission, still is. The Mission London is Jewish, exists today.

And helping the churches in this, helping Christians to live on the front line, as they now put it, as Christians whose Christian commitments are affecting the way they live. And that means in one aspect, the way you do your, your daily work, your daily job as a witness to the people around you, the way you do it and what.

My interest in Proverbs goes back when I left home for the first time and went to university. When I left home and went off to Oxford to study science, my father gave me some verses from Proverbs and they have lived with me ever since.

And there were verses I'd encourage any Christian to memorize and to remember. Proverbs 3. 5. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own insight in all your ways.

Acknowledge him and he will make straight your path. Do not be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord and turn away from evil. It will be a healing for your flesh and refreshment for your body.

And that opened my interest in the book of Proverbs and why eventually I wanted to study it in detail and write a commentary on it.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:57

Yeah, it's really good. I also, I'm just gonna spoil this for for some people.

We are going to be doing a bonus segment for Patreon, but instead of our usual too long, didn't listen or pet peeves, I I want to ask Johnstad a little bit not sorry, John Stott, my brain's all over the place. Dr. Lucas, a little bit about your history with faith in science, because we do have a series coming up on our show about that very topic.

So for those who are interested after the show, we will probably talk about that just for just for a little bit here. I think TJ Stepped out for a second, but my things next next.

So before wrapping up, we do always like to ask our guests just for something practical our listeners could go do that would help engender unity, you know, Christian unity, ecumenicalism, whatever. And we just want to ask you, is there anything tangible that people could stop and do right now that would just help us better come together?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:50:00

Well, I would say take one of those proverbs about the use of language that we have talked about, whether it is the one about listening or it's the one about thinking before you speak or not being a gossip.

Pray and say what one might God be saying to me is the way I want I need to improve my use of communication with other people and think about that for the coming week.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:31

So if everyone does that, what do you what changes what happens in the world around us?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:50:38

I hope and I would expect it would lead to a building of a stronger community, whatever your community is, because people will be listening to each other, understanding each other better, communicating with other people with humility and with more openness. And all that will build community, whether it's among your family or your friends or in your church or in your workplace, whatever it may be.

TJ Blackwell: 00:51:09

And that's, you know, that's the goal. We're humans. To be human is to be in a community. But before we start to wrap up, we like to go over what we call our God moment.

And that's just a moment in our life recently, whether it be a blessing or a bone of worship, a challenge, whatever it may be, where we saw God and I always make Joshua go first to give the rest of us enough time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 00:51:34

Yeah, I'm trying to decide what I want to go do for this one. I'm going to go work related, probably a weird one.

We've had some problems at our store that happened around the same time that I was looking for an excuse to get overtime because I need more money. You guys don't need to know why I need more money. I need more money just happened to correlate exactly at the right time.

And it was just one of those really weird, challenging, like, I probably overthink things kind of moment where I'm like, man, am I thankful that this bad thing happened to my store because it helped me, or am I, you know, grieved because this happened to my store and I probably could have prevented it? And should I feel bad that I'm taking advantage of the situation? I don't know. But it is working out. We have solved the issue.

I have to be really vague because, you know, people know where I work and I signed agreements to not say things, but yeah, but we solved the issue and I got the hours I needed and everything looks like it's gonna work out. So, you know, praise God and also question myself. I always question myself, though, so that's fine.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:44

Yeah, yeah. For me, my God moment, I'm. Time is a circle, the earth is flat, whatever.

It's hard for me to remember what I have and haven't said, but I went to an apostolic church recently. I can't remember if this has been a God moment yet, but.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:02

Oh, it has.

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:03

Okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:03

But please do it again.

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:05

Relevant. It's just, you know, I'm still thinking about it because it's as close as it is apostolic to, you know, Pentecostal Church of God, of prophecy.

It felt like very different.

It was kind of shocking to even attend a church that is so similar to mine and see what the differences are and get to know that community really did a lot for me. And I, you know, recommend everyone to do the same. Go to a church that is not yours. Go to a church in a different denomination.

Doesn't even have to be severe. You know, if you're a Methodist, go to a Presbyterian church, see what happens.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:42

If you're in United Methodist, go to Ame Zion. Why not?

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:45

Why not?

Joshua Noel: 00:53:46

Also, I do want to say because I think you might be interested. I hear all of our podcasts like 500 times each because I edit them. TJ hears them once when we do them. Yeah.

You articulated that moment a lot better this time.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:00

Thank you.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:01

Yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:02

Thank you. Dr. Lucas, do you have a God moment to share with us?

Ernest C Lucas: 00:54:07

Yes. Sunday morning, the one that's just gone. At the end of last week, someone asked me if I could help them make.

As they were making a very important decision. They asked me to pray and to think, was there any way I could help them discern what was the way God wanted them to go in that situation?

I said, well, I would certainly pray for them.

And I was praying Sunday morning, and suddenly into my mind came a verse, a short passage of scripture which I was given thinking about 50 years ago when I was facing an important decision. And someone said to me, think about. Think about this. And I thought, wow, I think that might well be relevant.

And with that in my mind, I went off to church.

And the sermon in church has nothing to do with the particular issue my friend was facing, or indeed about making decisions, but what the preacher said was very relevant, and it sort of. It fleshed out what the passage that came into my mind, which is completely different, had to say.

So I went back, and on Sunday afternoon, I sat down and I did a bit more prayer thinking, and I wrote an email to my friend saying, this, I think, is what God has said to me, and I hope you must decide how and in what way it's relevant to you. And it was. I got an email back saying, thank you. That was very helpful, and it's really helped me.

But God does still speak to us today through his Word and to other Christians and with the help of prayer and so on. So that was my most recent moment.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:55

Yeah, no, I. I love stuff like that when, like, you're. You're sitting there and pieces just come together like, you. You need a word. And it just happens.

I love when it happens at church or, you know, elsewhere.

Today, for myself, I was on another podcast with Christian Ashley and Leah Robinson, and we were just talking about our favorite female characters in all fandoms. It was just a little nerd podcast geek moment. Right.

And I started talking about Kamala Khan, and it answered a question I had for myself where I was like, man, I feel like I'm not as passionate about some things as I used to be, and I couldn't figure out why. And then I started talking about why Kamala Khan is so passionate about stuff. And I was like, oh, yeah, that. That's why. Good reminder.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:41

Yeah. So if you like the episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with an enemy. Cousins.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:49

Especially your cousins.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:50

Especially your cousins.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:51

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:52

I don't know what it's like in England, but in America everyone has like a million cousins. Yeah, small difference. But rate and review the show on podchaser, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you listen.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:06

Just wherever you don't listen.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:07

Wherever you don't listen, just let us know what you think. It's super helpful to the algorithm and we want to know what you think.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:13

Yeah. Also consider checking out the Amazon Podcast Network, where we have other podcasts over there. I've mentioned quite a few today. Weirdly enough.

You know, I think I mentioned Let Nothing Movie with Christian Ashley. Check that out. Systematic Ecology, tj, myself, Christian Ashley is on there. Leah Robinson's on a recent episode.

I don't know if it'll be out by this time or not, but I'll make it out. I'm the editor. I can make things happen. I also do be living water. It's just been a while, so I don't know. But check that out.

I'll probably be talking about Daniel over there soon, because I love Daniel.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:43

We hope you enjoyed it. Next week, we're going to be joined by Pastor Will Rose, Ryan Doze, and Josh Patterson to discuss cursing, cussing, and telling dirty jokes.

Naturally. And then, of course, we'll be taking a short break from the show as we prepare for a new series.

We are going to be doing the whole church science fair. We'll be exploring the relationships between faith and science and the diversity of the church today.

And finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Ernest C Lucas: 00:58:08

Whoa.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:08

He doesn't know about it, though, does he?

TJ Blackwell: 00:58:10

Completely unaware.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:12

Yeah. Maybe someone will tell him one day.

TJ Blackwell: 00:58:14

One day.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:14

Eventually, per.