Profane or Divine? Understanding Language Through Faith

TJ Blackwell: 00:00:39

First Corinthians: 10:27

Now, by conscience I do not mean your own, but the other person's. For why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered about that for which I give thanks?

Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all things for the glory of God.

Do not offend Jews or Greeks or the church of God, just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own benefit, but the benefit of the many so that they may be saved.

In this prig, St. Paul writes to the Church of Corinth and is instructing the church how to handle situations of consciousness, interacting with people who may believe differently, and how to share the Gospel Brian does in our own time and context. How might it look today for us to live in such a way where we attempt to not offend others needlessly?

Ryand Does: 00:01:50

Wow. Needlessly being a key word there. It really, as I was kind of thinking through this opening, it can really just go back to the Golden Rule.

It can really just go back to treating others the way you yourself would want to be treated. And I think to dust off my. My.

My Bible study skills, I think actually incorporating a little bit of what Jesus tells Peter to let the love that you have for each other be the way that people know you by leading in that way and leading by the Golden Rule. Probably your best way to go about this and do it with as clean a clean and clear of a conscience as you possibly can.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:36

Hey, guys, welcome back to the full church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not. That's fine. We can't be in competition. It's kind of in the name. That would be just weird.

I am here, of course, chiefly to announce the one and only DJ Tiberius Swan Blackwell. The one who invented hockey. That's just as cool as anything else I've ever said about him, actually.

And we said some stuff that put him there at the beginning of time. Yeah, really let that sit in. Yeah.

We are also here with three great friends, the best friends I could think of to talk about dirty jokes and cussing with. Ryan does, host of across the Bifrost. We have Josh Patterson, HOST of Rethinking Faith.

We have Pastor Will, Pastor Will Rose, my pastor, and the pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill. I just keep wanting to say America. North Carolina, Charlotte, America. I don't know, guys.

I am coming off of, like, some kind of terrible cold or something. My wife has Covid. I might say nasally and bad. That's one disclaimer.

The other disclaimer is, we're not going to be here to answer whether or not cussing is good or bad. We're not going to be here to kind of justify how we use language. But language will be had in this.

In this episode, we will be saying the bad words, not just describing. Like, we're not gonna be like, hey, Will, can I say fuck? I'm just gonna say fuck during. Yeah, so that's how it's gonna work.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:15

If you, you know, like, what we do here. Except for this episode. I have great news. Every other episode is not going to be like this one.

You should check them out on the Onslaught Podcast Network website. Link is below. Check that out. If you do, like, what we're doing here, let us know. Maybe we'll just do every episode like this.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:37

That would be something.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:38

Yeah. We'll see.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:40

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:04:41

Somebody's first episode ever.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:43

Yeah. Cast your votes.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:45

I hope.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:45

Cast your votes on our merch shop. Just buy something and we'll know what you say.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:52

Yeah. Also, I might be changing the merch shop. Most of the products will be the same.

We'll just have to be changing distributor because what we're currently using isn't working very well for. Mm. Yeah. But anyway, tributers, other things that we do here. You can't be in division when you're being as silly as I like to be.

Silliness happens now. Silly time. There we go. What's the funniest joke in a cartoon you watched growing up that may have gone over your head as a child?

TJ and I will answer first. Give everybody time to think about it. One of my favorite shows as a kid, Rocko's Modern Life. I loved it.

Most of that show went over my head as a kid, but as an adult, if I ever go back and watch any of it, it's just so funny.

The characters you ignore, Ed and Bev, Bighead, the frogs, they're just straight up a swinger couple, and they constantly make jokes about it, and it's wonderful. So that's going with dj Joke went over your head as a kid in a cartoon.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:59

No idea. None of them.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:02

Yeah, he's Never been a child. He's always been fully grown and had approximate knowledge of all things.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:09

Nothing comes to mind.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:10

I. I'm, I'll try. What's something that goes over kids heads that happens in SpongeBob?

Ryand Does: 00:06:20

I don't remember.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:22

All right, well, Josh, like they can just give double answer, so. It's fine. Will.

Will Rose: 00:06:27

Oh, I was a big Looney Tunes Bugs Bunny fan as a kid and so I really think the sexual harassment of Pepe Le Pew is really one. They're like, wait a minute, come on, dude. No. No means no. No means no. I don't care.

I know you're, you know, insecure because you may smell or you're just not self aware what's going on with you, but control your body and no means.

Ryand Does: 00:06:53

He'S groping that cat.

Will Rose: 00:06:56

Yes. Come on.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:58

All right.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:58

The. The star of, of Dirty joke, right? Yeah, yeah, you're the professional. This is your, your area of expertise.

Ryand Does: 00:07:09

No, I, I do love that. This is what got me in matters of church discipline back when I was on staff places. And now it's like, you're the king of this.

And I'm like, you know what? I'll take it.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:22

I'll take it.

Ryand Does: 00:07:24

So I thought of one joke and then one reference.

So one of my favorite movies of all time, barring kids or kids movie, adult movie is first Shrek Movie is genius at layering in adult humor amongst children's language. So my. One of the most iconic parts of that movie is the song that is played when they get to duloc and you know, welcome to New Lock.

It's a perfect place, you know.

TJ Blackwell: 00:07:55

Oh, yeah, okay. You know, that's a good one.

Ryand Does: 00:07:56

Please keep off of the grass. Shine your shoes, wipe your face.

One of my favorite jokes of all time and one of the games I now play as an adult, watching children's movies with my kids, especially old Disney movies, is like, okay, where are they hiding dongs and vaginas this scene? And Little Mermaid is like freaking soft core in the way that they show off phallic imagery.

So Little Mermaid is a real treat as an adult now when you're just like, oh my gosh, there's so many dicks in the background of this image. So yeah, Disney family, family fun for the whole generation. For every generation.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:42

Yeah, they do the, they lean on the hidden diggy thing on in Little Mermaid instead of.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:47

Yeah. I also, I'm just gonna throw out for an extra since you threw out an extra before, John.

I mean, you're not gonna say this one Anyway, it doesn't matter. The Ratchet and Clank series, I started playing them pretty young.

I don't know at what point that I realized how they named the games were just exclusively these kind of jokes where it's just going commando up your arsenal a crack in time. Size matters. I love these games. They're great. All right.

Josh Patterson: 00:09:19

I want to give a shout out to Will Rose because he brought up Pepe Le Pew and talked about consent. And I think one thing Pepe Le Pew could learn is if it's not a hell yeah, it's a hell no. So we're all about enthusiastic consent here on.

Yeah, at least I. I assume so. It's not my show. I'm assuming that that's correct. But so for me, I actually, I want to pull from Rocco's Modern Life like Joshua did. Yes, Josh thing.

So at one point, they play a game called Spank the Monkey. They have paddles and there's like a monkey in the middle of the table. That's like spring. And they play Spank the Monkey together in a circle. So.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:04

Yeah. Yeah. I can't recommend highly enough for people to go watch Rock whose modern life as a grown up, it's a must.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:16

So, generally speaking, why do we feel like so many faith traditions treat speech as such an important topic? And what is it that makes some words or jokes. Jokes feel off limits? Will, you were there for the foundation of some of these religions.

Ryand Does: 00:10:30

Go medieval on his ass, Will.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:32

What.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:35

Old guy?

Joshua Noel: 00:10:36

Whoa.

Will Rose: 00:10:38

I've started a few religions. Some religions have been formed around me in my.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:42

That's our fault. I have several times introduced him as Magic Head for a reason.

Will Rose: 00:10:48

Yeah, I just think I. I think, you know, there, man, if we really want to do a deep dive in terms of religion, spirituality, there. There's always been a perception of what is holy or profane or secular. So you're trying to separate that which is godly and that which is earthly.

And this kind of purity kind of culture around all things in life, whether what kind of food you eat or how you. How you reverence the altar or not, what kind of language you use.

The Ten Commandments, you, you know, are the first three are, you know, no other gods. But also not taking the Lord's name in vain, how you treat the Sabbath day, whether it's holy or not. So there's this holy language.

And so I think being mindful what our language that we use or don't use in the presence of the divine or not is, has always been a part of religion. But I, but I think there's also been a move, you know, I think rightfully so. Being authentic and being our true self.

Can we be our authentic true selves in front of the divine being? Being who we are among our friends about our loved ones and so God acting differently in church than we are like on the golf course.

What, what does that say about who we are and code switching?

All those things are kind of all wrapped up and entangled with how we use language and jokes and those kinds of, that's, that's where my mind goes in terms of reflecting on, on those things. Like I tell my, my own kids and what I told my youth group and all kinds of things. I don't care if you say a cuss word.

I do care how you treat another person. There's one thing to be cussing traffic or say something, you know, dropping an F bomb or a damn it when you, when you stub your toe.

It's another thing if you're being is a complete jerk or asshole to another person and cussing and swearing and how you treating the other person. So I think that for me that's more of the authentic way to talk about how we use language and how we treat the other person.

And then there's a reason why the second commandment is how we use God's name and the reverence and respect and worship when it comes to what makes it holy or not in the language you use. So those are some of the things that I reflect upon now. Jokes.

You know, I think comedy is a part, the whole nother thing about dirty jokes or profane, profane jokes or just stand up comedy lifted up a mirror to the absurdity of life and what that looks like and pushing boundaries in terms of shock and awe of people and what we laugh at, what we find funny, that's a whole different thing.

But I think, yeah, there's something there about being our true selves and how we can feel like we are true selves around our friends and loved ones that we're close with, even the divine.

And then how we use our language, not being mindful or self aware of the language we use around people we don't know or kids or you know, teens or people who have religions and that kind of stuff. So that's where my mind goes when it comes to that question.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:41

To me it feels like one of those things where in the early church it was really important to distinguish ourselves from secular people.

And one of the ways that you could do that is by refrain from using certain Words which can be misconstrued pretty easily as just a method of control from the church. That's just what I think as.

Ryand Does: 00:14:04

How.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:04

That really picked up and snowballed into, you know, evangelical period religion.

Will Rose: 00:14:10

Yeah, Yeah, I like that. Religion is often seen as like, a list of don'ts. You know, oh, you can't do this. You don't do this.

And rather than what we're called to do or treat other people, so there's that stereotype of, like, pop. Pop culture. Religion, Pop culture. When people find out I'm a pastor, I'm on the golf course, and they're like, by the fourth hole, and they're like.

They find out I'm a pastor, they're like, oh, my gosh, what did I say? I can't believe I cuss. I'm like, I don't care if you cuss. I'm really, really care that you're like, you're playing slow.

You're not being mindful of, like.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:38

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:14:39

Of. Of, you know, walking. Yeah, yeah.

Ryand Does: 00:14:45

If I was playing like dick, I'd be cursing, too.

Will Rose: 00:14:47

Yeah, I like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:49

Yeah, I think. Oh, go ahead, Josh. Sorry.

Josh Patterson: 00:14:52

I. I was gonna say, I think there is something interesting about how the purity metaphor within religious frameworks as a whole, but I'm speaking from my own context. Growing up Christian gets kind of dropped into so many different places.

And when that metaphor is kind of pushed too far or taken, you know, beyond the limits that it's meant to describe, it can get us into all sorts of issues.

And maybe I'm only thinking about that because recently I talked with Billy and Paul Horde about their fantastic book, you, Contamination, discuss theology and the Christian life. And they do a deep dive into how the purity metaphor and language functions within the Christian system and within the Christian tradition.

And so I think when it comes to things like swearing or dirty jokes, that purity metaphor is something that kind of comes into play because now there's this bad thing that can contaminate the good thing and make it impure or something like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:55

Can I. Can I add a couple of things real quick? Dj? No, please do. I mean, CJ Show. I just work here. But no, I actually.

Being the nerd and loser I am, I'm thinking about this, like, historically. Like, I think a lot of it actually comes down to, like, some form of social Darwinism.

I think that anytime humans exist, there's going to be bad words and there's going to be sacred words. And I think it typically, honestly, has a lot to do with comparison. I Think of. And this made my brain laugh a little bit earlier.

But I think of Marty in Back to the Future getting really pissed off that someone called him a chicken. You know, but honestly, like, most of the times, if you track, like, your swear words, like, it does just make sense.

Like, yeah, at some point you called somebody crap and they got offended by that, and you're like, oh, I can use this word for power and attack people and call them this and compare them to that. You know, most of your swear words kind of start like that. Sometimes as a culture, we throw a flag. We go, wait, don't do that.

I think of, you know, all the asterisks. Double bad word warning. I guess faggot was used a lot when we were high school.

We, me and Josh and Ryan, I assume, I don't know, we were at times before current times.

Ryand Does: 00:17:17

You're my age. Do let me in with it.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:19

I actually remember a time, the age. I remember a time where, like, I started hearing, like, people would use rate like mind rape or this kind of like.

And I feel like I'm really glad we got away from that. But I think a lot of these cuss words and even your sacred words comes back to comparison and just how language evolves over time.

You know, it started by, oh, I don't like being compared to poop. And then eventually shit's now a bad word. Right. Dickhead's a bad word. You know, a lot of it, I think, is comparison.

A lot of your sacred words are going to be something similar. And it does, I think, in general, come to. Is our language building someone up or tearing them down. Right.

And that's where I think the Hebrew religions are really interesting, because it does have. Yeah, Yahweh is an unpronounceable word. We have a word so powerful that we just can't pronounce it. And I think that does probably also come back to.

You can't compare that to any other word. It doesn't sound like another word. It's not anything because it. It isn't.

You know, breath is the closest we get, and there's a lot of really cool Jewish theology around that. But, yeah, I think most of this is going to come down to comparison and social Darwinism. And I'm a loser for bringing that up.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:28

You.

Ryand Does: 00:18:29

You knew how to effectively communicate Darwinism, so I don't think that makes you a loser.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:33

I don't know, bringing up Darwinism in a conversation, maybe the loser never.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:38

You killed Will. But I do think it's interesting that There are even in, you know, adult circles who like to say the fun words. There are limits.

Like in, in Australia, everyone says cunt. Everybody, everybody here depending on, you know, depending on who you say it to, you might just get slapped.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:58

I get really, I feel really uncomfortable when people use that word. And then like you watch British shows or the boys and it's just haunts. Yeah, that word, the one for me that I'm like, I don't like that word.

Josh Patterson: 00:19:09

I was talking to a mutual friend of ours and they were talking about living with their kid overseas and they came home from school one day and were using the C word. They were like, we don't say that. It's like, yeah, everybody in school says it, dad. And they were like 6, 7 years old.

So it is interesting how language is kind of subjective in that sense and shifts and changes not even, not just over time, but even in social location, like where you are, what's appropriate, what's good, what's bad.

Ryand Does: 00:19:45

Yeah, that.

Honestly, like, in relation to this first question, I think like this, this whole topic, like this meta topic of use of language really just comes down to time, place, like all the contextual items that we would associate with what Josh said. Like in.

And I'm sure we'll get to this, but like in 1st century, when Paul is writing, especially the section of text TJ read at the beginning is a first century Greek speaker. So his concept of appropriate language isn't even in the same ballpark of how we interpret the badness of a word or not today.

And I think one added thing when the, where the church gets involved here and things get a little murky and muddled is associating the use of specific language with your morality as opposed to being honest about where that language is best used in context.

Like, if I say that doesn't make me a morally bad person, but where I choose to use the word might make me an undisciplined person or maybe someone who can't read social cues or using things out of context like that.

That is, I think it says way more about that person's maturity or responsibility with language as opposed to where the church gets say, like, you know, or the church has claimed, you know, to have that purity culture mindset of like, no, that is a bad word. One thing Will knows this. I talked to Will about parenting a lot. I have, I have two 8 year olds for a few more weeks right now.

And when words that we wouldn't like them to repeat at school come out at home, like I'LL stub my toe or something, and I'll look at my son and he'll be like, that and. Is a word that we don't use at school. I'm not saying that's a bad word. I'm saying that we have a certain context we do not use that word in.

So, yeah, I'm sure I'll hit that again. Joshua. That was my one big thing that I. I really wanted to hit, especially related to this question.

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:59

That was actually something like I was. Until I was in, like, high school. I just thought my parents didn't cuss wild. They did a great job.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:08

I have legitimately heard my mom cuss once in my entire life. My dad, none. Ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:16

Well, Right. How should churches handle differences of opinion in this topic? Because, you know, we've got a couple of different styles here. Ryan.

You'll say it in front of your kids, and it's like, hey, that's not a appropriate word for school and probably church. I feel like you should start adding church into that. Just maybe my parents, who wouldn't swear around us, Josh's parents who don't swear at all.

How do we handle the difference of opinion on this topic? And can we even start to talk with one another about unity if we can't agree on how we should speak? Big question.

Josh Patterson: 00:22:49

Well, for me, I think it's just. It's time and place. Like, I. I am well aware that I swear probably more than the average person. But also, I'm. I'm always aware of my context.

And so I think it's important. I think it's a respect thing.

Like, I recognize if I'm in church or if I'm around a certain group of people that I know might not, you know, appreciate foul language. Then I do my best. I'm not perfect at it. I do my best not to utilize that language. So I don't think it's. I don't know.

I think I like Brian's point about maturity. I think recognizing your context and then, like, being respectful enough to not, you know, use language in situations that are.

Is not appropriate is good. So I think it kind of falls on the person. You know, I don't. I don't know if we'll ever really agree on is this right or wrong.

But I think for me, it comes down to, do I respect the people around me enough and not use language that they're uncomfortable with.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:50

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:23:51

So that's how I feel.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:53

I want to double that and throw a wrench into it so that Will can do it. Correct us all. Yeah, I. I want to. Yes.

I've always found it weird, like, why are we saying these aren't really bad words if you don't want to say them in school or in front of other people? And it's because, like, we don't want to intentionally offend people. That's actually in the Bible.

Pretty frequently, white people are offended by some of these words are kind of beyond me, but I understand why. If people are offended, we don't want to offend people needlessly.

On the other hand, though, you know, I always taught that way, like, this is why we don't cuss. That's why we don't cuss. That's why we don't cuss.

And then I go to a workplace and I'm in a public area, and then the guy who doesn't cuss and never says any bad words makes everybody else feel like he thinks he's better than them and high and mighty.

And then it's like, actually is a moral thing to try and sound better than everybody else or should maybe you speak to the level of the people you're talking to.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:45

I don't know.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:45

And that's where I was gonna throw it to Will, but he disappeared.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:49

Yeah, he got it.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:49

Ryan. Ryan now has to be the one with all the answers.

Ryand Does: 00:24:52

So I think the TJ threw in the. The wrench that I noticed first of adding. Adding church into that appropriate place.

Now, I think that comes with another bit of sticky subconscious behavior that we do. We treat church events, activities, buildings, context as if they are kind of inherently special. It's what Will referenced being on the golf course.

You're nowhere near a place of worship. You're nowhere near any structure with crosses or crucifixes. Anywhere near it.

But the fact that Will, by his title, is so attached to that subconscious understanding of, like, oh, that's the church guy. I have to kind of put on my appropriate church hat, disavowing us, like, from the connection that a location is magic.

Now, like, evangelicals love to do this. We're like, the church isn't a place, man. It's a people. Like, okay, I'm gonna say fuck in your church building, and we'll see how much.

It's not a place and it's a people. Like, we say those things of, like, oh, it's not about four walls, man. I don't know why I'm doing a hippie voice for this.

But we say it's not a location. We say it's not a place. But then when we enter into that specific place, that physical space, we recontextualize.

Kind of like what is right here inside the four walls is, you know, is right. Good church behavior. I think that is also kind of a dangerous subconscious that we get in because. But you guys know this.

I have not been a paid clergy pastor, whatever, for five years. I am way out the game. A co worker of mine found out that I was a pastor five years ago.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:56

Congrats.

Ryand Does: 00:26:57

Months ago. He brings it up all the time. And I am saying horrendously, not. Not at him, but around him all the time. And he's like, you were a pastor.

I was like, half a decade ago, man. Calm down. I'm not. I'm not magic. And if I was, I'm definitely not now.

Will Rose: 00:27:16

And I'll see if my computer works. You guys can hear me.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:21

Yeah. Which I am one of the hippies that. It's not about the four walls, but I try to stay consistent with it.

Will Rose: 00:27:27

I think it also boils down to, like, depth of relationship and maturity when it comes to that. So, like, yeah, if I learn someone's like a doctor, I'm going to, like, you know, I might.

I might ask them different kind of questions or act them around. Act a certain way around. Or if they're a police officer, stand up a little straight, oh, no, what's going on? Or. Or a lawyer.

And then when they find a pastor, there's these stereotypes and labels attached to people of the cloth, men and women who are. Who are pastors who serve in that role.

Ryand Does: 00:27:55

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:27:55

Who are priests or pastors who are supposed to lift up those things that are.

That are holy and that again, that kind of pop culture notion or stereotypes of what it means to be pastor and holy and what you can and can't do in a church building and that kind of stuff. We get some of that from. From scripture versus taken out of context and that kind of stuff about.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:15

Up.

Will Rose: 00:28:15

You touch the ark wrong. So you're going to be dropped dead, you know, kind of thing. So up, you know, you say, say you drop an F bomb in. In church or in the pulpit.

Oh, lightning's gonna strike you. Right, Josh? And so the. Yeah, I think.

Josh Patterson: 00:28:28

Right.

Will Rose: 00:28:29

Some of that is like.

Josh Patterson: 00:28:32

But.

Will Rose: 00:28:32

But if you get to know somebody.

Josh Patterson: 00:28:35

I did do that at my most recent engagement. I dropped enough.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:40

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:28:41

So, like, if I just meet someone, I'm not gonna come right out of the gate and just tell them all the deep, dark secrets of. Of who I am and what's going on? Just speak free freely. I want to get to know them a little bit. I could. Can.

Where does trust land in this and trusting being who I am, I am around them and how I use language and, you know, being vulnerable around them. Once I get to know someone better and become friends with them, I can be. But now, again, we'll get.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:07

Later.

Will Rose: 00:29:08

Later on, maybe perhaps talk about calling people out when. When they go too far or they use language that demeans other people or.

Or, you know, in a way that breaks a commandment on how I love God and love my neighbor. I think. I think that's what friendship and community does as well. When you take things too far, there's a reason, you know, some.

Some comics get canceled. You know, in terms of cancel culture. That's a whole other conversation. But in terms of what. What does it mean if you take something too far?

But also, where's that level of trust and relationship and maturity when you have. With another person or with your religion or with the community that nurtures you and guides you and holds you accountable?

I think all that comes into play.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:49

Yeah, yeah. I also. I do think as much as, like, the four walls and different stuff can be annoying, that conversations people have, I do find it slightly.

I don't know, I think sacred things can be good. I think it's good for people to have sacred things. It's just how closely do we hold it tight?

Like, maybe it's healthy to have an area where we're like, hey, we're going to talk differently in this space. We're going to treat it differently because it means something to us.

I think it'd be interesting to get, like, Dan to talk about this, like a psychology of the sacred or something. Be interesting.

You know, I mean, I find that if I treat Disney World like it's just any other place, it's not as much fun as if I, like, hype it up in my brain and I'm like, this is going to be the greatest thing ever. And the same thing is probably true of church and other sacred thing, you know? Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Ryand Does: 00:30:42

All I could think of was like, you know what that mouse, Joshua being like, okay, well, I know where the next schism is going to happen.

TJ Blackwell: 00:30:49

Right here.

Ryand Does: 00:30:50

Here.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:51

The Divided Church podcast, which we did have a guest once that did say, maybe it'd be better if we had more fractures. So that. That was interesting. That was a fun time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great.

Ryand Does: 00:31:07

Sounds like a fun.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:08

Why I didn't like Lutheran for a solid like, two months sometimes. Then I met Will. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm supposed to ask, what do we do if. Yeah. You guys know I'm a really sensitive guy, so what do I do if I'm offended?

Like, Ryan jumps in and says, fuck that mouse, and I'm deeply hurt by it. How should I respond to Ryan?

Josh Patterson: 00:31:29

You tell Ryan to go stuff.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:32

Why don't you.

Ryand Does: 00:31:33

Why don't you fly your South Carolina ass out here when you. Once you come to my territory where, you know, I. I don't have home field, you. You won't have home field advantage.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:42

Yeah, we don't do that.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:44

We.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:45

We drive.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:46

Not that far.

Ryand Does: 00:31:47

You. You coastal elite.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:54

Liar.

Josh Patterson: 00:31:55

No, I think. But in all seriousness, though, I think that there's a.

There's a proper way to like, let somebody know that the language that they're using is bothering you, and if that person is not a jerk, then they'll probably, like, hopefully at least listen and acknowledge that. So I think it's okay to admit when we're uncomfortable with things.

I think a lot of times today we get weird or nervous around admitting when we are uncomfortable with things because we don't want to be perceived a certain kind of way or whatever. But I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with saying, hey, like, you know, probably you shouldn't talk like that right now.

Especially, like, I know for me, like, one of my flaws is for, like, out somewhere, and, like, I let something slip by accident. There's, like, kids around, and Noel will be like, dude, like, there's kids. Like, oh, right.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:45

Sorry.

Josh Patterson: 00:32:45

I shouldn't say that. So I don't think there's anything wrong with. With admitting to somebody when words are harmful and. Yeah, just owning that for yourself.

I think that's a good thing.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:59

Two things One really threw. Threw me off that he said, Noel will be like. Because, like, I forgot that his wife is named Noelle. And I thought he was just talking about me.

Like, you know, people use their last name, like, come on. No.

Josh Patterson: 00:33:09

God.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:10

And I'm like, it's. No, they're not. Like, oh. I thought.

Like, I actually do sometimes get offended by some jokes that, like, a lot of times people make, like, those trans jokes, and sometimes they really get on my nerves because I have friends. And I'm like, I don't like that.

Even though south parks, I identify as a dolphin thing was still hilarious sometimes, you know, these jokes, I'm like, I don't know if I'm comfortable. You know, I don't want to participate in that kind of joking around. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:39

For me, when it happens, it's always online and it's just kind of a thing where like, hey, man, we. We don't say that anymore.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:45

Yeah. When someone's like, hurricane suck. You're like, no, can't joke like that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:51

No, no, it's. It's been like 10 years, man.

Will Rose: 00:33:55

It comes back to self awareness.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:58

Come on.

Will Rose: 00:34:00

I think there's a self awareness of, like, who are you trying to implement? Press? Who are you trying to lip push down so that you're higher or boost your ego? And I think that's.

I think there's a place where you can call that out to be like. You know, there's. There's been times, like, I. Yeah, Hannah, when she dropped her books going to kindergarten, she said, damn it.

And I was like, where'd she learn that? And then like a day later, I heard Cindy around the girls going, damn it. You know, or something dropped something. I was like, that's fine, whatever.

But another thing, if somebody's in front of us at a line or a movie and the dude's cussing like crazy in front of my little kids and he's trying to impress his girlfriend by using, I'm like, man, can you just like, pump the brakes a little bit? Can you like, look, be around you, be self aware of. Around you.

But then like, again, it comes down like, self awareness and insecurity and security and trust in our relationships that I think where we use these words, I think words matter. But also you're like, be yourselves. I guess there's that balance there of that kind of stuff. And then I think you're.

I think you're allowed to call somebody out. When I think that's what the commandments are doing. It talks about God's name. It talks about your neighbor. Good Lord, my church phone. Damn it.

Damn it. My church phone, man.

Ryand Does: 00:35:16

Will, it's popular that.

Will Rose: 00:35:20

Oh, it's.

TJ Blackwell: 00:35:21

What time is it?

Will Rose: 00:35:22

Goodness, no, no, I.

Josh Patterson: 00:35:25

So.

Will Rose: 00:35:26

So that's where I kind of go back and forth is like, how are we using language to either boost ourselves up or tear down other people and those kinds of things? So that's where my. On this whole conversation.

Ryand Does: 00:35:42

Joshua, I would love to throw in a counterpoint here. Not. Not to. Not that what the guys haven't been saying is awesome. Good wise.

I feel like we're kind of playing the role of everyone's guidance counselors right now, basically. Don't be a stupid person. Counterpoint, though.

One thing that I'm learning in raising children is to develop thicker skin with language you cannot control. So, like, you're not always going to be able to control how another person uses language.

And as I continue this mindset of, like, you know, being an armchair etymologist here, like, you're not going to, you're not going to be able to appropriately respond to language that is offensive all the time if you're able to respond to it effectively and make a point.

And, like, within relationship, kind of what Will was talking about, how, like, all of our kind of instructions from Jesus and from the commandments, is like, it's a community. It's a community trying to, in a sense, govern itself as terms of how we should treat others. But also, sometimes you might have to let it slide.

You might have to let it go.

That was something I had to learn in not necessarily in, like, certain bad words, you know, the five or six that jump to our minds, but, like, not to let language so impact me as to where I am constantly brittle and bruised and broken by every single thing that gets lobbed my way. I think that is maybe to play devil's advocate.

That is another thing to consider when we talk about language is, yes, to respond when it needs to be responded to, but also to know when to not respond. Like, to develop the thicker skin. Yeah, I just think that maybe, is it someone might need to hear the counterpoint to that, because I know, I.

Will Rose: 00:37:44

I, I love that. No, I think that.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:48

Yeah, no, I think that's really good. I appreciate that. Good words. But also for our listeners, I have to translate.

I asked everybody what happens when I got really offended and hurt when Ryan said that. Mouse. And Ryan's advice was just so everyone's aware. If you're following the story forward to.

Ryand Does: 00:38:08

Not being invited on again.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:10

All right, sorry, Will, you're invited every Tuesday. You just, you know, don't get the invite every Tuesday.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:25

Show up and say what you want. So, Will, you were saying something.

Josh Patterson: 00:38:28

All right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:28

No, he wasn't. So I have a few rapid questions for everybody. It's really just one per person, but.

Will Rose: 00:38:35

Gonna start with Jay.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:35

Patty.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:37

There's a conversation that happens way more than it should on Christian college campuses about the difference between cursing and cussing. So could you help illuminate our audience on how this conversation usually goes?

Josh Patterson: 00:38:48

I'm gonna do my best because I never personally participated in said conversation on college campuses. But what I think, what I think it's getting at is the difference would be, like, I think intent probably is where it's coming from.

So cussing is More so about, like, if I'm goofing off with a friend and I, you know, say shit or call them a dick or whatever. The intent is not mean. I'm not trying to tear down or harm or anything like that. It's just, you know, it's. It's an exclamation or whatever.

Whereas cursing somebody, I think, is intentionally trying to tear them down. With your language, you are trying to cause harm.

Whether, you know, we believe in the idea of, like, cursing somebody, like a witch might curse somebody or whatever or not, I think that's kind of where it's coming from. Like, are we using our language to cause harm? Are we trying to tear people down?

And I think this is a really important distinction because I think, again, intent really matters. I'm going to, like, harp on this always. You can use clean language without ever swearing and destroy somebody and tear somebody down.

This happens all the time to LGBTQ folks. The church loves to use non cursal words that make queer folks want to kill themselves. That is cursing somebody. That is wrong.

And I don't see how, you know, when, you know, people get upset about someone said, like, oh, fuck, or because, you know, whatever in the pulpit, or they make a silly joke. The. The impact of that is not as great, even though you use, like, harsher language. So I think the intent really matters.

Cussing would be kind of like goofing off with friends, not trying to harm anybody, using sentence enhancers, as they call them in spongebob. And cursing would be, again, to cause. Tear people down or. Yeah, wish ill will, buddy.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:48

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned intent, actually, because people might be listening and thinking, what about slurs? Slurs are bad because they intentionally are created to derive. Those aren't included in this. Don't say those.

So does anyone disagree before we move on? All right, so I was trying to.

Ryand Does: 00:41:08

Think of a creative way to disagree, but all I could think of was, hey, Josh, the caps are ass. Like, that's.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:13

I've been cursed once. So.

Ryand Does: 00:41:18

I figured I'd get a enthusiasm from tj.

TJ Blackwell: 00:41:21

So, Joshua, CS Lewis talks about sexual jokes in the Four Loves. Could you catch us up on his part of this conversation?

Joshua Noel: 00:41:28

Yeah, I. It's actually one of the things that. Yeah, there's a lot of things I love about CS Lewis.

I actually thought this part really threw me when I first read it because I was, like, a young little evangelical. Gonna be a pastor one day, kid. You know? And I remember, like, first reading this book, and C.S.

lewis is talking about, you Know all the different loves and how they all fail compared to God's love kind of, you know, deal. And a lot of that stuff still. I'm like, that's just not how I would have ever thought of it. C.S. lewis is a really interesting brain.

He gets to this, like, sex stuff, and he's like. He has this line where he's like, we treat it way more seriously than we should. And then he's like, asterisk. Or with the wrong kind of seriousness.

Anyway, and he, like, goes on and he's like, think about, like, every time, like, you have sex, sometimes your body just doesn't work. Or it's like, oh, sorry, wrong time of month. Or, like, you can do something. And it's like, oh, erectile dysfunction. Like, the way C.S.

lewis is talking about this stuff in the. In the book, I'm like, what? And then he's like, yeah, if you don't make fun of it, if you don't laugh at it, it's just wrong. Like, it is.

The funniest joke played on mankind is what, like, C.S. lewis describes it as. Like, it is hilarious that we're like this.

Like, sometimes parts of your body wants something you can't have, and you're in public, and that's awkward. Like, he talks about it, and I'm like, wow, DS Lewis had a sense of humor, but he's, like, saying it like. Like a Brit would.

So it's like, all dry, writing all this out, and he's like, here's the deal. He says verbatim, there's a reason there's been sex jokes in every culture ever, for all of history. Because it's funny. So, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:43:01

Yeah.

Ryand Does: 00:43:02

For the record of Posh Lewis being like, hey, guys, you ever all hot and horny and then you're downstairs just much.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:10

Yeah, like, that's. That's straight up all that red. I'm like, what? But, like.

Ryand Does: 00:43:16

But in a fancy British act.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:17

The important thing that he does talk about, though, that I think is still, like, maybe part of my, like, conservative side of me showing.

Ryand Does: 00:43:25

Joshua Serves is showing.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:29

He.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:29

He talks about it, though, like, where he's like, we treat it so serious, like a. We act like jokes aren't okay when, like, really, it's the funniest thing that happened to humans. And then he's like.

And then we treat it with this kind of seriousness where, like, we basically worship it. Like, oh, this is the epitome of life is to get married and one day do it, you know? And I'm like, that's just the church today.

And like, he goes on and he's just describing, like, when we treat it this serious, we act as if this is the most important thing and it's just not. And that's what ruins not just sex, but your entire romance life. And like, he talks about it and I think he's just right.

And I think it's like, not just the American church, but the American culture. I feel like the church treats it like your goal in life is to get married and do it with your wife. That it's like, that's unhealthy.

And then our American culture is just like, oh, man, hey, what's your body count? And I'm like, that's not really great either, actually. And they both just treating it with the wrong kind of seriousness.

I really like that terminology.

TJ Blackwell: 00:44:22

Yeah. I think to be fair and to give credit, I wish people could read our chat. I'm sorry, that's all saying, oops, erectile dysfunction.

That's hilarious to this day. Still works 100% of the time. That's never not funny. So, Ryan, how much should we really care about offending others with how we speak?

Ryand Does: 00:44:45

So I think, I think there's like, I think you can, you can interact with this question in two ways.

The good faith way of interacting with it would be to honestly be a good neighbor, to love others the way you would want to be loved, to treat them the way you would want to treat them.

Going back to that golden rule I referenced at the beginning, I would like to think that most people want to interact with fellow human beings, whether they be, you know, the same ethnicity, whether they be the same orientation, whether they be the same sex, you know, gender, same nationality, economic status, all those things. But I've met enough people to know that many interact with this question in a bad faith.

So I think there is a, there is a paralyzing effect of, like, I don't want to offend anybody and I actually care. And then newsflash, like, humanity is messy. You're going to offend someone. I do think, like Josh has been saying many times, like, intent matters.

The intent to do harm. You're a piece of shit. The, the intent to use language in a, you know, camaraderie kind of way, a friendship kind of way.

Hey, I, actually, I, I'm with you on that. I, I, it's, it's a large part of my friendship with Josh. It's a large part of my friendship with many of my closest friends.

But the bad faith way to look at this Question would be, I'm going to say whatever I want, and I don't give a fuck if I offend people. That is a bad faith way of interacting with language, and it's a gross, gross depiction of your immaturity. We have.

And, Josh, I'm not going to go too far down this road, but we have several people in our public lives that talk a lot about others intending to do harm, and they use whatever language they see fit for the moment, and they're couching it under this, like, First Amendment right. Yeah, you have a First Amendment right in the United States, and that's awesome. You're interacting with that privilege in bad faith.

You are using language to do harm. You are using language to stow division, the opposite of this podcast intent.

So I would encourage you to reassess the way you use language and the maturity level that you're at with your language, because we have many people in powerful seats who use language. Like a junior high boy who, like, thinks he's King of the Hill. That is as brief as I want to be on that. Tj.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:35

King of the Hill's new season is.

Ryand Does: 00:47:37

Great, by the way. King of the Hill, the kind of.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:39

Throw that out there.

Ryand Does: 00:47:39

King of the hill.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:40

Yeah. But I would go so far as to say it's not just in the face of this podcast, in the face of language as a whole.

The point of language is, in a way, to, unlike, build a community. That's why different communities speak different languages. So, yeah, that sucks. But Will, tragically has left us. He's not dead. He's Internet broke.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:04

His computer was offended by our language and just shut down because it's in a church, probably why. Yeah. Lightning strike his computer.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:14

Yeah. So, Josh, the Bible talks a lot about avoiding perverse language. What is the Bible talking about? And what does the Bible actually say about it?

Joshua Noel: 00:48:23

First, back to what you just said, because you're talking about the point of language being unifying and all that. For those who don't know, those of us here are part of what's known as the world's worst youth group.

And Will is our past youth pastor, one of the members who is missing from the world's worst youth group on this episode.

I don't remember why he's missing from this episode, but, yeah, he would want to point out that that is exactly why Tolkien was an etymologist and why he developed the language before he developed some of the books. Anyway, and we won't tell any of his dirty stories on air until he joins us, but The Bible question, though, it's interesting.

I think largely it's talking about kind of objectifying other people or the kind of language that really only happened in junior high. I feel like, for the most part, for the groups I'm around.

But I'm sure there are also Chads in the world that still do this, where they like, oh, man. Yeah. When I get a hold of that girl, I'm gonna, you know.

Or like, you know, I've heard some popular, you know, people on air say stuff like, you know, I can do what I want. I can grab them by the pussy. And, like, I think that's the kind of language that explicitly the Bible is saying. That is perverse language.

We avoid that. I think that's the kind of language the Bible is condemning. When it says perverse language, it also talks about, like, using God's name in vain.

We're gonna talk about that a little bit later.

I know Patty has some stuff you want to say about that, but, like, in general, I think it's more about objectifying other people, harming other people. We're supposed to be using our language for flourishing, not for tearing people down.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:56

So what if we say, like, the opposite of that? Like, what if. What if I say Ray Ripley could do whatever she wanted to me? Is that a problem Biblically?

Joshua Noel: 00:50:03

I think so. That's a good question.

Ryand Does: 00:50:04

Absolutely not.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:05

I think.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:06

Good.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:06

Yeah. Witchers also were like. That's what I thought. The stories.

And maybe this is, like, my heart trying to be more like the Bible, because, you know, there's that whole thing where, like, you're supposed to be getting better and, like, you change, too, with the Bible, like, naturally, I guess, because, like, the jokes that are, like, dirty, that I find funny typically aren't about other people. I really do get uncomfortable when someone starts making a joke about somebody else's body.

But, man, when we were at a theology beer camp last year, and somebody was telling a story about a certain attribute of their own ass, God, that was just hysterical. So, like, talk about yourself. I feel like that's there. You know, you're in the clear there.

Ryand Does: 00:50:42

I told you that incompetent Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:46

Well, I laugh every time someone says size matters. That's about me.

Ryand Does: 00:50:51

Yeah, I. I just want to add one piggyback, one thing, because I know we're about to go into using God's name in vain. The. The. Can't believe I'm gonna do this. The.

The text that jumped to my mind was the section in Ephesians where Paul is talking about Kind of general, like, hey, these are Christian living kind of, like, good practices. And he says that do not let any unwholesome speech come from your mouth.

And I think sometimes maybe people, you know, because they're trying to line up, you know, not swearing, not using, you know, this kind of language, cursing, cussing, dirty jokes.

They're trying to line it up with more of a puritanical understanding of, you know, what makes, you know, what comes out of a man makes him, you know, impure kind of bullshit. But the next. The next part, I think, adds to our universal point here of context and community.

Language being a big part of that says but only what is helpful for the building up of those according to their needs. So, yes, not every context is appropriate, but also the use of language in camaraderie is a, I believe, is a need.

And, like, now, even more now with, like, male friendships. I have a friend at work who his wife does not understand our friendship. Like, it is very vulgar. Like, Like, I call him an asshole all the time. Do I.

Do I mean it to be deriding? Does he receive it that way? No, but when I use that language, it is meeting a need of camaraderie. He does not have other friends.

He does not have this community that we are so fortunate to have.

Josh Patterson: 00:52:32

So in.

Ryand Does: 00:52:33

In a very reductionistic way that is meeting a need. And it is, in my opinion, wholesome talk. Now, you may be a listener out there. Like, you just want to swear, don't you? I'm like, you're right, I do.

And you can't tell me any different. But I also. I truly do believe that that kind of language can be wholesome. If we're not just so dead set on attaching a puritanical morality, it.

I just wanted to add in that one verse because it was the one that jumped to my mind when Joshua brought up this topic months ago.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:07

Yeah.

Well, it's gonna lead really well into the next question, and I'm gonna string together Supernatural and CS Lewis into my reaction to what Ryan just said.

Ryand Does: 00:53:15

I dare you.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:16

Perfect. No, one of the other things.

One of the other things Lewis talks about, though, when it talks about, like, family and friendship and the four loves is, like, real love doesn't necessarily always need a I'm sorry. I messed up.

And sometimes it's just the simple act of, like, high five or, like, just doing what you normally would do together is sometimes more meaningful than stopping saying I'm sorry or stopping to say I love you. Sometimes the love is better shown than said.

And it specifically the way he talks about it makes me think of in Supernatural, one of the ongoing bits, Sam and Dean. It would not be natural for those characters to be like, I love you, man. But you can feel the love when at their, you know, have to say goodbye.

They're. Their thing is always like, jerk. And it's just like, yeah, that's. That is them saying, love you. Love you too, dude.

You know, that's not how me and Josh Patterson would like. For some reason we were leaving and Josh was like, I would think I upset him.

Usually I think I actually am like, Josh, I love and pretend to cry a little bit, you know, and then actually cry when he's not looking. But just, you know, difference differences. But sometimes it's better shown than said. And that's. Yeah, what you said made me think of that.

But we haven't talked a lot about, like, flourishing, using language to build up, not tear one another down. This is the Church Unity podcast.

So we do want to get to like, how can we best use our language to bring the church together, Add flourishing to the world rather than tearing people down. All that kind of stuff. Like, what is the best way to use our words?

Ryand Does: 00:54:47

I feel like I just did my monologue.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:48

If Will was here, he always goes first. We don't have to like, pick a victim.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:51

Don't.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:53

Yeah, yeah. So Josh is. Josh is stuck now.

Josh Patterson: 00:54:57

Well, that's fine. All right. I think so as far as when it comes to promoting flourishing, I think again, it comes down to recognizing your audience.

But then also one thing that I always continuously come back to, and I think I talked about this on whole Church before, but is, is that of, like, finding shared values and promoting those things even with people who differ from us. And so I always think that's helpful. So how can we discover our shared values and promote those? But I don't know.

I do think it's important, like, to use our language to remind our friends and the people that we care about that, like, they matter to us or that or that they're doing well in life or things like that. Like, so for me, as somebody with low self esteem, it's helpful if a friend is like, hey, you did good on this, or like, you know, whatever.

That's a way to. To build up. And I think that's good. I think we should normalize complimenting our. Our friends, you know, maybe complimenting other people.

Definitely complimenting our spouses or significant others. And even like, I don't know, something silly that used to make me really Uncomfortable was like, telling friends, like, I love you.

But I think even something like that, like, letting the people in your life know that you care about them and that you love them is a really good and important way to promote flourishing. Like, we can use.

If we can get comfortable with using our language to adequately express our emotions and also to give out compliments where compliments are due, and to respect others and build them up. I think, you know, I think that's probably the best way to go about that. And sometimes that can look different, right?

So, like, to throw a wrench into it in a friend group sometimes, like, for me and a lot of my friends, our love language, which is not in the book, is like, they, like, mess with each other and roast each other. Like, if I wasn't.

Like, if I was talking to Ryan, for example, and he, like, didn't say something to make fun of me, I would be like, oh, Ryan's mad at me right now for something.

So I think even just learning your context and learning, like, how people like to communicate, what kind of things make them feel good, how you build kind of that sense of friendship and camaraderie or whatever, just being really intentional, I think is ultimately what I'm trying to say. Be intentional about your language, learn what people like, and then do that thing.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:19

It's actually, I think it was somebody's challenge one day because we do, like, the practical accents at the end of the podcast usually.

I think at some point while we were doing the show, someone's like, hey, you know how, like, sometimes you just think of somebody out of the blue, take the five seconds to just text and be like, hey, man, I'm thinking of you right now. That was their practical action, and I actually started doing it for, like, the last couple years. I'll do that. And it's so, like.

And I have, like, ADHB brain. So sometimes it's just like, hey, I haven't got to that guy in four years.

And I just texted them out of the blue because I'm like, and what's it gonna. Like, is he gonna get mad at me that I text him? No.

What's it hurt me 10 seconds to be like, hey, man, I love you, and I was thinking about you right now? Probably not.

Josh Patterson: 00:57:55

I get, like, seven or eight text messages from Joshua a day about just.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:59

Constantly, like, hey, man, I'm in the bathroom. I was thinking about.

Ryand Does: 00:58:01

I have my pants off, and I'm thinking about you.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:05

I was in the shower, right? I just want to let you know I got you on the way.

Ryand Does: 00:58:08

I appreciate that, Josh. We just never send pictures.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:14

Yeah.

Ryand Does: 00:58:17

I just want to add something Josh said. Like, guys, if you're listening to this, tell your close guy friends you love them. Like, get over this junior high mentality. Oh, it's gay, man.

It's like, you're gonna be alone, like, and no men's retreat, no men's group is gonna save you from the fact that you can't break down that wall. Like, I tell Josh Patterson I love him so much. Like, it's.

Josh Patterson: 00:58:49

It's.

Ryand Does: 00:58:49

It's unsettling.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:51

Like, I should be jealous, but.

Ryand Does: 00:58:52

But Joshua, you send me, and it's a little. I got a trophy from you. Like, I. I tell Will I love him all the time.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:01

Oh, that's right.

Ryand Does: 00:59:01

Like your close friends. I'm not saying. Yeah, I'm not saying walk down the street and just be like, hey, man, love you.

No, you're gonna get put on a list, like, your close friends. Let them know how they've impacted your life. Communicate that to them that it is invaluable. Like, I can't tell you how impactful several of my.

My male friends at this stage of life have been in the last five years. I have stronger friendships with men now than I ever did in church, ever. Because that wall was broken down. Do it now. And, you know, it'll.

It'll be good for you.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:44

Yeah. This is the most meta way anyone's ever told me they love me, by the way. Thank you, guys.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:51

Yeah, I actually have good news on the front of male love. A lot of my friends, we're all younger than you guys. Dinosaurs. But a lot of my friends are even younger than me.

Ryand Does: 01:00:06

What are you hanging out in?

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:07

do you mean? You were born in: 2005

Ryand Does: 01:00:12

The correct answer.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:13

No, no, no, I'm not just online. It just kind of happens. I was like, oh, how was this kid? He's like, oh, 18. Like, why is he here?

But they're all super comfortable with just being like, yeah, I love you, dude. See ya.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:25

Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I hope that's a dream.

TJ Blackwell: 01:00:27

Great.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:27

Awesome.

Josh Patterson: 01:00:28

Yeah, I think it's actually. I want to throw something in here. I'm gonna get dark for a second, so.

Forgive me, but I think, like, I just want to emphasize the point because I do genuinely think it's really important. There is, you know, a loneliness.

Loneliness epidemic that's kind of, you know, been well documented, kind of sweeping across at least our context here in the Us, but I think other places as well. And you never really know or understand what different people are going through.

And so I think using our language to build people up is really powerful because, I mean, even amongst men, the. And this is the dark part, so forgive me, trigger warning. But, like, suicide rates are. Are high and growing.

And so I think it's important to use our language to build others up and let them know that you love them and that they matter and that they care. And like, this. I mean, this particular issue is, like, super important to me for a variety of reasons.

But I. I read a book one time because I'm a nerd, and this is what I do. You know, how to read on suicide by a philosopher named Simon Critchley. And it's like a philosophical essay writing about suicide. And he.

He ultimately argues that suicide. Like, if you're a true pessimist, you wouldn't kill yourself because, like, that's. You think too highly of the outcome of that.

So you're not actually being pessimistic. You're being optimistic. But also, he. His definition of suicide, like, absolutely broke me when I read it.

I had to, like, put the book down and cry for 45 minutes and walk away. Because what he did was. He said suicide is actually impossible because suicide is murder, and it's murdering the hated other.

Except what happens is the subject has reduced themselves to an object and named them the hated Other, and then seeks to dispel that hated Other. And so it's a murder of the hated other, which just happens to be yourself. And that's just so dark and scary and sad.

And I hope we can continue to use language to create a world where those kind of things are not viable options for people. So sorry to kind of bring the mood down a bit, but I just want to bring that home.

I think it's so important to use our language to build up, because you never know what somebody's going through.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:46

I. Two weeks before recording this, I recorded an episode with one of my old professors from Charleston Southern University, Dr. Peter Beck.

And he's writing a book called, like, the Dark, Dark Night of the Soul. And it's like, four other veterans and just learning how high the suicide rate is, not just for veterans, but also for pastors.

Those are, like, two of the highest things. And he is. Fits both of those categories. And just hearing his story, being someone that I. You know, he's Southern Baptist. I still look up to him.

I love that guy. I'm like, man, if I end up like him, cool that'd be great. I mean, hearing how far some of this stuff brings him down. Yeah.

I think for me, when people do jokes, like, you know, they joke around that, like, I'll kill yourself. That upsets me more than, you know, like, you didn't swear, but come on, man, that's not cool. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:37

All right, so is there anything else that y' all think we should discuss concerning how we use language when a joke is inappropriate? What it really means to use God's name in vain, or how to use our language in a way that best promotes flourishing?

Will Rose: 01:03:51

Or just whatever, really?

Josh Patterson: 01:03:53

That's the. In God's name.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:55

Yes. Yes, I said that.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:56

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:56

Would you like to say something about using God's name in vain, Josh Patterson?

Josh Patterson: 01:04:00

I would, but also, I just said. I said, like a whole thing. So if someone wants to go first, they can go.

Ryand Does: 01:04:05

Someone will. Will's gone, Josh.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:07

I personally feel like making jokes that make fun of Josh Patterson are bad. There, that's my bit. I've said my bit. That's all. That's exclusively what I care about.

Ryand Does: 01:04:17

Am I the tiebreaker here? I love. I'll just add one thing is I actually, like. Joshua knows I'm technically supposed to peace out here in a minute.

But I want to stick around for Josh's part on using God's name in vain. I just have a little preamble here. Our modern concept of swearing is not a biblical concept of swearing. Like when.

When we say ass, shit, bitch, fuck, bastard. I'm getting them all in here at the end here. That is not the thing that the biblical authors are talking about. So get it out of your head.

Find a better definition of the words you use to swear by. To swear by something. I'm sure Josh is going to hit on this much more eloquently and much better. But they're not the same.

Quit treating them the same. Because it's a bad use of language and it's an even worse use of so called biblical thinking.

And while you're at it, get your head out of your own ass, Josh.

Josh Patterson: 01:05:21

Yeah. All right. So the God's name in vain thing is. Is an important. I think. All right, so here, I'll say it this way.

I think taking God's name in vain is a bigger deal than most people make it, and here's why.

A lot of the times, like especially growing up, when I heard don't take the Lord's name in vain, what they were saying is don't say Jesus Christ is like an explicit, explicit term or don't say God damn it right exactly where, like, honestly, I guess I should explain myself first before I say this, but I'm going to go backwards, honestly, sometimes in life, I think God damn it is one of the strongest prayers that I can offer because life sucks sometimes. And, like, that's a. That's a way that I feel that I can cry out to God, and I think God is big enough to handle it.

But I think using the Lord's name in vain is actually a more difficult command than not saying a few choice words together. Because, see, if we want to be biblical, and here I'm going to talk about the Bible.

For all the haters on the Internet that tell me I've never read the Bible before.

Joshua Noel: 01:06:21

I don't even know if he's looked at one.

Josh Patterson: 01:06:24

The way the Genesis narrative is set up is very similar to how you would build a temple. And so at the end of the. The narrative, when.

When God brings humans into the story, it's similar to that of when people would place idols into the temple, symbolize and represent the God that that temple was for.

And so humans, people, when we say we're created in the image of God, we are meant to be idols in the temple of creation, showing the rest of the world what God is like. And the command not to take the Lord's name in vain is actually not about cursing. It's about failing to show the world what God is like in a.

In a reasonable way. And so when we do things, when we don't love our neighbor as ourself, when we, you know, exclude the immigrant and the.

And we're okay with, like, orphans and widows being blown up, like, all of those things are taking the Lord's name in vain. When we use the name Jesus to justify our politics or to justify our nationalism, that is using the Lord's name in vain.

Anytime that we do or say anything as Christians that misrepresents the God of creation, that is using the Lord's name in vain.

And there's a whole bunch of Christians in the world right now who are perfectly fine with using the name of Jesus to promote genocide, to promote the mistreatment of LGBTQ folks, to, you know, promote the mistreatment of the immigrant and the refugee, and they think they're just doing great, and if I were to get on the Internet and say, God damn it, they'd be super pissed at me, but they wouldn't look at the plank in their own eye. That's failing to represent the very God they think that they're defending in their nonsense. So I will stop doing my soapbox.

But I think that matters deeply. How we live, how we image matters a lot.

Ryand Does: 01:08:20

Josh, can I piggyback, Can I just piggyback off of what Josh just very eloquently said real quick? Since I, I mean, I'm sure predating this, but since Constantine, empires, wars, expansions across the globe have been done vainly in the name of God.

Most of the horrendous things done in the Christianized world have been done vainly in the name of God. So God damn it, quit equating the two. I'm so tired of it. So tired of it.

There are historic examples of things signed into law that countries, kings, the divine right of kings, a long standing thing that leaders have been living by for years, claiming God's will is being done in simultaneous action with what they are doing. That is the most egregious use of God's name being taken in vain.

And I swear to Christ, if I hear one more person equate, like I said, Jesus Christ use the Lord's name in vain, I'm like, who did you vote for? Tell me, because I guarantee you it has using God's name in vain implications. Joshua, I look forward to the listener.

Joshua Noel: 01:09:50

That'S going to reach out to you.

Ryand Does: 01:09:51

But then it's true though, and it's not. It's not. Just now, Josh gave a great example of why that is in vogue right now.

The church has been doing horrendous things in the name of Jesus and the name of God for so long. It's not new, it's recycled.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:07

Yeah. I want to clarify a little bit. I don't think simply voting for even Donald Trump, as terrible as he is, is necessarily taking God's name in vain.

I think if you're wearing your Jesus shirt and saying God told me, that's what I'm referring to, taking God's name in vain. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, yeah, I assume that's what you meant.

I just want to clarify because for me, I would equally say if someone said God told me to go attack this Donald Trump supporter, you are also taking the Lord's name.

Ryand Does: 01:10:34

Yeah, that's a terrible use of God's name.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:36

Yeah, yeah. And I also feel like a lot of times we do this big picture, but even small picture. Myself has taken God's name in vain quite a few times.

When I told girls that God told me they wanted to me to date them, like that is taking God's name in vain. And I. Yeah, we won't. We won't go past that.

Josh Patterson: 01:10:56

We used to get those emails.

We used to get those emails in the Christian college that I went to where you would get emails from these girls and they'd be like, hey, the Lord told.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:04

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 01:11:05

That you and I are like, well.

Ryand Does: 01:11:07

Lord, is the Lord also a thirsty.

TJ Blackwell: 01:11:11

Yeah, I've only ever done it. I've only ever done it the other way. I've only ever been like, God thinks we shouldn't be together right now.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:18

That's what I. I really feel the.

TJ Blackwell: 01:11:20

Lord mean praying about.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:22

I don't know, man. Yeah, yeah. But no, that's good. And I'm glad. I'm glad you bring it up because I do think it's a common misconception and it's infuriating. Yeah.

Yeah, thanks. Also, I'll throw in there for. For our podcast sake.

If you're using the Lord's name and saying that that's the reason why you can't commune with Baptists or Catholics, that's taking the Lord's name in vain. Because Lord's pretty clear that he wants Christians to be one. There we go. That's our unity bit. Our other unity bit.

What we do at the end of every show, we like to ask everybody if you could provide a single, tangible, practical action thing, what's something practical people could do right now that would maybe help better intender, Christian opportunity for whoever feels like answer.

Ryand Does: 01:12:07

Yeah, I feel like I need.

TJ Blackwell: 01:12:08

Or Ryan, because.

Ryand Does: 01:12:09

Ryan, because he's about to be my preaching moment there.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:12

No, I liked it. Preach harder.

Ryand Does: 01:12:16

You really want no one to listen. I would just say, to reiterate something Josh hit on earlier. Communicate effectively the love you have brothers to those people. Don't. Don't say it.

In theory. Don't. Don't think of it as one of those, like, oh, yeah, I'll pray on. We treat it like, you know, I'll pray about that. You're not praying about it.

Like, you know, don't let. Don't let me be like, oh, I'm going to tell my buddy I love him. I'm going to tell my spouse I love them.

I'm going to tell, you know, my mentor that I appreciate and love them. Just. Just do it. Like, I swear there's not a drawback.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:54

Yeah, it's simple.

Ryand Does: 01:12:56

Do it.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:57

I'm. Oh, man, I'm gonna make that weighty because that's something that's really important to me.

I remember a time right before my last brain surgery when I really thought I was just gonna die because the doctor already said, you have so much pressure on your spine, it should have already snapped. And I really wanted to call my brother because he wasn't there yet. And I was like, I gotta tell him I love him one more time.

And my mom pushed back hard. She doesn't know you're gonna make it. There's no reason to do that. I'm like, no, I have to.

And my dad very seldomly does my dad, like, just straight up like, no, this is happening. My dad's like, no, he's calling his brother and hey, I didn't die. Could. And ever since that moment, that's for me. The. Yep.

When I feel like I need to tell someone I love them, that I'm just gonna say it. Just bucket.

Ryand Does: 01:13:41

Joshua. Like, my kids get annoyed when I tell them. I tell them I love them and I'm proud of them every day.

And I even said to my, my 8 year old to Logan before we got in here, he's like, hey, you have a good day at school today? He's like, yeah, I did. I was like, well, I love you and I'm proud of you. He's like, you say it all the time.

And I'm like, I'd get really used to it, man. Like, it's not going. But I love all you guys and I'm proud of all three of you too. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:09

Love you too.

TJ Blackwell: 01:14:10

Yeah, I love you, Ryan. I'll miss that guy.

Josh Patterson: 01:14:14

I think if I can steal an idea from the practice of psychology therapy 101 is that you treat your clients with unconditional positive regard.

And I think that's good for church unity because it's not telling people that they're stupid, that they're wrong, that they're sinful, that brings about transformation. But it's actually that sense of belonging, it's the unconditional love, or to use a Bible word word, it's the agape love of God.

So unconditional positive regard is my church unity term for. For the day.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:49

Speaking of agape, have I mentioned CS Lewis's four loves yet today?

TJ Blackwell: 01:14:53

Sorry. Yes. So, gosh. Yeah. So this has now become just a regular episode. So the onus is on you.

What happens if we just approach everything with that unconditional positive regard? What changes in the world?

Josh Patterson: 01:15:12

I don't know. I think a lot changes when people belong is really belonging is very important to me.

I think a lot changes when people know that they belong and that they're loved and that they're cared for. And so I think if. If we could get out of our. If we could get out of the kind of, like, we.

Weighty theological debates that we like to have or, like, argue over what words in the Bible means, and we could actually learn to recognize Christ in the face of the other. In all, in every individual that we meet and practice that unconditional positive regard, I think a whole lot would change the world.

We'd probably stop killing each other, for one thing. We'd probably stop taking advantage of each other, stealing from each other, stepping on one another, but instead seek out mutual flourishing.

So I think it would change a lot.

TJ Blackwell: 01:16:04

I agree.

So before we wrap up, we'd like to ask everyone to share a moment that they saw God in recently, whether it's a blessing, challenge, mode of worship, whatever it may be. Josh always make Josh go first. You know, that. Probably just to give the rest of us time to think. And just three of us now. How. How the mighty fall.

Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 01:16:26

Yeah, I got to go to Disney last week and then got really, really sick. Yeah, I don't know, man. Something about being there. And also, I try not to, like, sound like.

The amount of text that I got compared to the last trip I took, the amount of text that I got that I had to not respond to was really irritating.

And I realized that my life is just very different from the last time I took a real vacation because, like, I do that thing where I'm, like, I'm not gonna respond to work texts. I'm not gonna respond to podcast texts. I'm just gonna, you know, personal life and that. It was like, man, every five minutes my phone goes off.

But, like, is this actually just like my regular life? Is this how I live now? And I just didn't recognize it.

So it's a challenge to determine whether or not I want that to be my regular life, because it appears that it is. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:17:20

Mm. For me, my God moment.

I actually, today, I'll go with, today I got the opportunity, which is pretty infrequent, but I've always thought a lot about, like, you know, working the nine to five, whatever, like an hour lunch break. Unbelievable to me. Don't understand how that happens.

Joshua Noel: 01:17:40

It's not eight hours.

TJ Blackwell: 01:17:41

On the flip side.

Yeah, on the flip side, you know, you and I, Josh, we can just be off on a weekday, and that allows us, which I just really never considered, to go spend time with those people who have the 9 to 5 and get an hour for lunch and go eat lunch with them. And I took advantage of that today. And it was. It was great.

It was nice to just slow things down, be a part of someone else's workday and just be in the moment and live in their moment.

Will Rose: 01:18:08

It was. It was great.

TJ Blackwell: 01:18:09

It was great. An hour for lunch would be awesome, though.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:11

I think I might actually hate it, I gotta be honest.

TJ Blackwell: 01:18:14

Yeah, I for sure would. Every time I've ever actually taken a break at work, by the end of the first 10 minutes, I'm like, when.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:21

I was at Shutterfly, we had to take 30 minute breaks. I just edited podcast, so I'm like, I feel like I don't do well with break as a concept.

TJ Blackwell: 01:18:30

Yeah, yeah, me neither. Me neither. But it's cool, theoretically. J. Patty, you have a God moment for us.

Josh Patterson: 01:18:38

Yeah. So recently, actually, this past weekend, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, I was out Yalls two way in North Carolina.

I had the opportunity to speak at a conference at Park Parkland, Park Road Baptist Church, I think. Park Road Baptist Church, something like that, in Charlotte, North Carolina.

And it was an open relational theology conference called Speaking to a Modern World. And the talk I was assigned, or what I was asked to speak about, was bridging the gap between atheism and theism using open and relational theology.

So what I did was I made a strong case for atheism and how it destroys classical theism. And then I used radical theology as a stepping stone to lead to anatheism, which is God after God. So reimagining God after the death of God.

And then process theology, or open in relational theology as kind of the. Like, here's a viable way to talk about God. And during my presentation, I got emotional like I did five minutes ago.

And Tom Ward, one of the people who I know have been on Whole Church podcast, was in the room and he asked a very beautiful question. And he asked me, he said, josh, you did like a great talk. You know, the philosophy, theology, solid, great. Got it.

However, I want to ask you a question.

Do you think that times when you got emotional during your talk or times when you've been emotional preaching before could be used as evidence for the divine? Because you're tapping into something that is good and beautiful and true.

And I'm super glad Tom said that because I have thought that for a really long time that part of when I get emotional is because I'm touching on something that is deeply true or profound or, you know, based out of love or something like that.

And so that was a God moment for me because, like someone I very much look up to Tom Ord kind of confirmed this, like, stupid suspicion or what I thought was a stupid suspicion that I had inside of me. Like why? I can't say that. Very philosophically articulate and know whatever. But I think that's true. So I think we should.

My God moment is recognizing that my emotions are good, that they're beautiful, and oftentimes they can be a pathway to the divine.

TJ Blackwell: 01:21:01

All right. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:02

It's true.

TJ Blackwell: 01:21:03

So please, if you're listening still, wow. Please consider sharing it with a friend. Yeah. Share it with your enemies. Share with cousin.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:13

I said especially.

TJ Blackwell: 01:21:14

I said especially your cousins. Yeah, yeah. If you are already listening on YouTube. Thank you. Hit like hit subscribe. Hit your cousins, not your enemies. Turn the other cheek.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also follow other shows on the Halls out podcast network. Maybe ones without people who are very sick and brains aren't working.

You know, try let nothing move you. I think Christian's feeling healthy right now. Or random nights. My seminary life or kung fu pizza party. All of them are healthy doing podcasts.

So try there.

TJ Blackwell: 01:21:49

Yes, yes. But we do hope you enjoyed it.

The next few weeks, we're gonna take a short break as we prepare for a new series we're gonna be doing called Behold Church Science Fair. There are no ribbons, unfortunately.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:00

Or are there yet?

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:03

We're gonna be exploring the relationships between faith and planet science in the diversity.

Will Rose: 01:22:06

Of the church today.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:07

And at the end of that series, Will Rose will be back with Thomas Johnston to discuss their upcoming limited podcast series in association with the ELCA on faith and science. Your matter matters. And finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:21

Probably no one stole them, though. Maybe if you guys get with them.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:25

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:25

Let them know he'll probably be on.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:28

Yeah. Keep sending him Instagram DMs.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:30

That'll work. More people send him into the DM. That's absolutely his primary means of communicating.