The First 100 Days of Pope Leo XIV: A Reflection on Progress

Joshua Noel: 00:00:24

Joel 2:28 31 in the Christian Standard Bible. After this, I will pour out my spirit on all humanity. Then your sons and your daughters will prophesy.

Your old men will have dreams and your young men will see visions. I will even pour out my spirit on the male and female slaves. In those days, I will display wonders in the heavens and on the earth.

Blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood.

And before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes, then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. For there will be an escape for those on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as the Lord promised.

Among the survivors, the Lord called in this Breakavia scripture. The author just finished telling the warning of the Lord to the people of Judah.

He's telling about the suffering that's going to come to pass for those who have fallen away from God. And here he's describing what will come to pass if the people of Judah repent and turn back to God.

Olivia Haight, how would you say this might this kind of encouragement of the blessings of God might be relevant for his followers today?

Olivia Haste: 00:01:23

Yeah, I love this reading a lot and I was thinking a lot about it in the context of a vision of radical hope and inclusivity. So after we're warned of devastation, this text promises God's spirit will be poured out onto all people, young and old, children.

There's no hierarchy. Everyone can prophesy, they can dream, they can see visions.

And so I think that today this reminds us to look for God's spirit and unexpected people and places. I think it challenges us to value voices we often overlook.

And I think for me at least, it means that God's spirit isn't limited to the powerful or religious, but is for everyone.

God is calling and I think in turn calls us to help build a world where that truth is lived out right, where dignity, prophecy and vision are welcomed in all people and all experiences.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:22

Yeah, I like that. Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not. That's cool too.

We're not in competition because that would be weird. I am Joshua Noel. My main job usually is to introduce TJ Tavir Swan Blackwell, who is not here yet.

So hopefully I'm thinking he's probably just asleep. Just when you're that powerful, sometimes you just gotta sleep a lot. So hopefully that's what's happening.

And he wakes up and joins us in the middle of this. We'll see. But I am here with one return Guest Russ Petrus from Catholic Women Preach.

And he brought with him a new friend this time, Olivia Haste or Hasty Paste. I'm really excited to have her here. And Russ, we're gonna have a fun conversation. Approximately 100 days into Pope Leo XIV.

Not exact, because we found the exact number. Like that would be cool. Then we realized we're not. We're not that coordinated. I don't even know when episodes we record come out most of the time.

So just around 100ish. We're going to call this 100ish Days of Pope the 14th. Again, their ministry, they're part of the Catholic Women Preach.

I'm also learning the part of a future church, which I don't know anything about, but I'm learning.

And today we're going to be talking about those first hundred ish days and we're going to discuss what this pope in the papist new papacy might mean for what they're doing with the Catholic Church concerning Catholic Women Preach.

At the start of this papacy, whenever Pope Leo was first elected, we did have a conversation with Professor Chris Moreland kind of on the background and expectations of this pope. So if you're interested in some of that, you can go to that episode.

This one's going to be more focused on the impact that this is going to have with Catholic Women Preach. So that's what we're going to be focusing on trying to do. TJ's part of this intro and I'm bad at it.

And you guys know that because I keep getting put in this spot. Not keep, but you know, more than I want to be, which is done. So be sure you check out the network's website, Amazon podcast Network.

That link is going to be in the description. And we're getting some new. Some new merch, some new T shirts and stuff out.

So if you guys want to check that out, we're going to be getting some comfort color shirts. You guys like those shirts going to be in the store. That's. That links in the show description too. Could be worth it.

And everybody does know I have a favorite form of unity, a holy sacrament. We do on this show. That's silliness because you can't be divided when you're being as silly as I like to be. I'm going to start with a. With this mean.

I don't know where I come up with these sometimes. Which character from Lord of the Rings would make for the best church leader? And which church office would you most like to see him or her occupy?

I'LL go first. Give you guys time to think about it. I'm not even really sure how I want to be. I want to say Samwise, but, like, he'd be a terrible church leader.

Like, his whole thing is just wanting to stay at home. Like, I feel like he's not like a pastoral figure in any way.

Maybe he could be like a deacon doing or like an acolyte doing, like the work of ministry, but I don't see him doing like, you know, preaching or like, hierarchy stuff. I don't know. Struggle legless. Could be a good bishop, maybe. Maybe I'm unsure. Russ, help me out.

Russ Petrus: 00:05:40

I think those are both great answers. I was going to go with Ayn. She has that great scene, you know, speaking as a Catholic, of course.

She has that great scene where she's face to face with the Witch King and the Witch King says something like, no man can kill me. And she rips off her helmet and she's says, I am no man. And then she vanquishes him. It's just a fantastic line. Probably the best line of all the.

Of all the movies.

And I think I would like to see her as a cardinal and hopefully eventually the Pope, because I think the men have had their shot and haven't done an A plus job. So perhaps it's time to give women their chance and see how they do.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:29

When you're talking about, like, best line, it made me realize, like, I should have said Gandalf because he has that. That line where it's like, yeah, none of us get to choose which time we're born in, but it's up to us what we do with dominant man.

He's a good pastoral figure. I don't know if, like, office wise, he just, he moves around too much for an office, I feel. Olivia.

Russ Petrus: 00:06:48

He's an itinerant. An itinerant after Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:51

Yeah. There we perfect.

Olivia Haste: 00:06:54

I must confess I have not seen Lord of the Rings and I did not have time to study. But I did, I did ask my brother who he thought and he did say Gandalf. And we talked.

I actually disagreed with him because I only know the, the kind of cultural reference of you shall not pass. And I was like, that doesn't feel like I really want a church leader to say that to anyone.

Um, but he did say that Gandalf would be a good pick for, like, stage wisdom. And in terms of church office, I think all of them are in need of some sage wisdom.

But honestly, maybe just like a really great, great, like, pastor of a parish like, that's what I'm going with. Tough answer. Because I don't really know. I don't really know the lexicon, but I wanted to participate.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:48

Works. Works.

I'm going to show true nerd colors and go, like, way bey on, like, book stuff and, like, into, like, the weird Tolkien lore, which this is all Catholic, so it's fine because Tolkien, but with the you shall not pass. Why? I think that line actually makes me more in favor of the Gandalf pick.

For those who don't know, Gandalf is one of the Ishitar, which is basically like an archangel, and so are all the Balrog. They were just corrupted arc.

So when he's facing down a corrupted archangel, which is, you know, of like a demon, I would guess, depending on your theological leanings, and he stands it down and say, you will not pass. Talking about the Fellowship, which, you know, what's a church other than a fellowship? I don't know. Sounds like a good parish pastor to me. Yeah.

Yeah, I think I'm defending that one. That's a good stance.

Russ Petrus: 00:08:34

Gandalfa is that other great line with Shadow Facts. The horse, and he says, run, Shadow Facts show us the meaning of haste.

Yeah, and I was actually really interested in shadow facts, actually, because I think in some ways, you know, especially speaking as a Catholic, the Catholic Church can move slowly. It's known for moving slowly. And some of the things that we need to change, I think we need to do a little bit more hastily, so.

So Shadow Facts was actually my second runner up. To show us the meaning of things.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:07

Yeah, I mean, it would have gotten a lot worse if I had just said, like, all of Middle Earth instead of specifically Lord of the Rings, because then you get into, like, the Hobbits and the Silmarillion. Like, man, there's so many good. It's almost like Tolkien was really aware of his own faith tradition. It's crazy.

No, Yeah, I. I could talk Middle Earth all day. If you guys want to hear me talk more about Middle Earth.

I am part of another podcast, Systematic Ecology, and we talk about fandom stuff over there, so check that out. But I'm. I'm going to leave it today because I. I don't want this to become a Lord of the Rings episode.

But today we're going to be dividing up our question. Two separate, kind of rapid sections.

I'm going to ask you guys a few questions about Pope Leo xiv, what we're thinking about them, and then we're going to reflect afterwards, kind of as a Whole on your answers and maybe get them a little bit more conversational style then. So, first, first set of questions, we're going to ask them about your thoughts just on the Pope in general so far.

And then later, we're going to ask some more direct questions concerning the future of women in ministry, that kind of stuff.

So first up, however you guys want to do this, we'll let Olivia go first and then Russ, and then for the next round, we'll let Russ go first and then Olivia. That way, you know, being fair.

Okay, so, Olivia, starting with you, what expectations did you have when Pope Leo XIV was first elected Pope, and how did his first hundred days measure up so far for you?

Olivia Haste: 00:10:28

Yeah, this is a great question.

I feel like a lot of people in our bubble of church reform and that kind of world, I think a lot of us were preparing for a pope to do a 180 from WHO Pope Francis was. So when Leo was elected, I was really excited and really hopeful.

Definitely hopeful, but cautious and not totally ready to be like, this is the best thing that's ever happened.

I think in the last hundred days, though, I've been really, really grateful for how he has spoken out about injustices in our world, specifically the crisis happening in the Middle east or the crises happening in the Middle East. And I've also been really grateful for how his ministry seems to be one of repair.

I think there are a number of people who have been alienated by the church, whether that was during Francis's papacy or before Francis's papacy. And I, I really see Pope Leo as a bridge between many communities.

It's really early to, to kind of say that definitively, but I definitely think that my expectations continue to be met, obviously, with some. With some area for criticism, because the Catholic Church, as Russ said earlier, moves notoriously slowly.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:55

I thought you're gonna say this would be a boring podcast if there was zero criticism. We're just gonna say good job.

Olivia Haste: 00:12:01

No, no, we're not just gonna take. For now, I'm, I'm, I'm cautiously, cautiously optimistic, cautiously hopeful. And yeah, we'll. We'll see where we go.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:13

I do want to comment real quick for clarification. You mentioned kind of after Pope Francis thinking that we're going to do a 180.

You were thinking, you were talking about, like, before he was elected Pope, they were thinking it's going to be a 180. And then after he was elected, you felt a little bit more at ease.

Olivia Haste: 00:12:27

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to speak for Russ. Or like the entire community of like minded, you know, Catholics who are, who are kind of in this justice reform area.

But, but I do feel like I was ready to mourn the progress that we had made during Francis's papacy.

And I don't, I don't think that progress is lost, especially with Leo's emphasis on C. Because even if Leo throws away a number of things that Francis was really focused on, the synodality piece really continues to pull lots of groups to the conversation.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:05

Yeah, that, that helps me as a Protestant, you know, I don't know all the ins and outs all the time, but I know just for context, I was reading a book of an author we're gonna have on the show soon and she, she's a Protestant who's also a marine biologist and she quoted Pope Francis and I'm like, okay, this is a like minded Protestant because we are the ones who like Pope Francis. And I don't know Pope John enough.

Pope Leo the 14th enough that I'm like, am I, am I to feel the same way about him later on where I'm excited when someone quotes him? We'll see.

Olivia Haste: 00:13:37

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what his first publications are.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:41

Yeah.

Olivia Haste: 00:13:41

And his first writings.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:43

I got at least two books with Pope Francis back here and it's like, I'm not Catholic, but man, everything he wrote and like said, I was like, just. It resonated with my soul. Like Lord of the Rings. All right, there we go. We tied it in. Same question.

Russ Petrus: 00:13:56

Man, the circle is complete. Yeah. You know, I tried not to go into hope Leo's papacy with too many expectations, but more so just having some hope.

I think that Olivia said, like Olivia, I was relieved when, when he was announced and I remember being excited that he had chosen the name Pope Leo XIV and what that all meant.

I think my hopes for him were that he would one, continue the synod process that Pope Francis had put in place and really is sort of Pope Francis's legacy project. And by all accounts he seems to be on board with that process and with that principle. So I guess he's met that hope.

And then the other thing was that with a name like Leo the 14th, I was hoping that he would be a strong advocate for the most vulnerable among us.

And I think he's proven to be that so far too, especially with the way he's consistently and I think very strongly spoken out against the wars in both Ukraine and in Gaza. So he's meeting that expectation as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:18

Yeah, yeah. I, I think some of this has to do with kind of recency for me, because I've changed a lot of my views over the. You know, last few.

I've constantly changing my views just on things in general, just full transparency. I just, you know, I think it's partially just in my nature and partially just because I have to quote Kingdom Hearts a lot. Just.

It's just people are gonna have to deal with it. I remember early on, though, this is, like, the first time I fell in love with a story. It was this game.

And in the first game, it asks you what you're afraid of, but it gives you, like, three options. And as a kid, I was like, why would I be afraid of any of these? Like, one of them is, like, indecision, and one of them is, like, the future.

One is, like, you know, like, what? And I don't know. Ever since then, I've always thought about, like, why would you be afraid of being stagnant?

And then the more I thought about it, the more I'm like, maybe I am afraid of being. Maybe that is my worst fear. Yeah. Anyway, so I think, for me, I care a lot about LGBTQ community stuff.

You know, I've become more affirming in my theolog theology recently, and I don't expect people to change their mind or views or, like, different churches, especially, like, Catholic Church that has, like, so much tradition. But I don't pop Francis just.

Even though he, as far as I could tell, held to this, that theology that was more conservative than me was so kind, and that's what I was afraid of losing. And I don't. I don't think we've lost that, from what I can tell.

Russ Petrus: 00:16:43

Yeah, I don't. I don't think so either. I think, you know, one of the things that was a hallmark of Pope Francis was this idea of encounter.

Like, he was willing to encounter people. He was willing to be encountered by people. And I think that that's, you know, some of that kindness that you're speaking about.

And I think Leo has certainly showed the same kind of willingness to. To encounter.

And in terms of, like, the LGBTQ stuff, I do know at one point he was giving an address to the diplomatic core of the Vatican, because, of course, the Vatican is its own sort of sovereign nation, I guess. So they do have a diplomatic core.

And he said something about, you know, family being built on the foundation of a man and a woman, and people, like, went immediately, like, up in arms, I think, both on the left and on. Well, both the progressives and the conservatives, I think Some of the progressives got a little charged up about that.

And I think a lot of the more traditional folks were sort of like, yeah, right into it, breathing a sigh of relief or something. That's just, it was probably just a line that he said.

And I do know that the, the Cardinal Hernandez, the, the prefect for the dicastery for Doctrine of faith, which is a pretty powerful dicastery in the Vatican post. Pope Leo has said that the, the blessing of same sex union or people in same sex unions will stand.

So, you know, so, yeah, yeah, I think it's early still to say what, what he's going to do on all this kind of stuff. And I think he's gonna not go it alone. I think he's going to try to bring the whole church with him.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:39

Hey, whole church. Everybody gets bonus points when they, when they use the, the phrase whole church.

If you could get the whole, like the whole saying whole church hold again in there, that's like triple points. And then like, I'm trying to work in this like, ecumenical reconciliation. That's like four points.

Because that's like, you know, that's like the big word version.

Russ Petrus: 00:19:00

That's tough to say.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:01

umenical reconciliation since: 2019

I know we're, we're taking a lot of time on the, the first rapid question, but I can't help but do this because I feel like it's one of the most important questions. I just, I like that sense of kindness. I still feel like it's there. So, so I appreciate that. Yeah, let's move on.

We'll go back to some of, some of this later on, I think, when we're kind of just hashing out conversational style. But how would you guys describe. And I think we kind of already entered this, so that might help.

How would you describe the tone or posture of Pope Lee, the 14th Papacy so far? Would you say like reformer, traditional list diplomat? If you had like give like a one to three word, what's the style like? Olivia up first.

Olivia Haste: 00:19:57

Oh, man. I was thinking like, reforming diplomat. Like, I think he's a little bit less confrontational than Pope Francis at times.

Pope Francis was very confrontational and was very clear about what he was saying. And I think I, I sense that Pope Leo is. Is just a little bit more careful with how he says things.

That said, we're only a short period of time into the papacy, so we'll kind of see. See where that goes. But you said three words, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave it there for now.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:27

That. That was perfect. That's right. What I was looking for. Yeah. I will say to what you're talking about.

I think it's really funny because early on when we started this podcast, Pope Francis reminds me of another friend of ours. I don't want to name drop, because people think that when I say this, that makes him sound like a bad guy.

We started this podcast and his advice was like, yeah, the. You have to have an enemy for the podcast. That's like, what draws people's attention.

And I think Pope Francis was kind of like that, where, like, he was really good at drawing attention. Like, he was these. He was meant for social media. Like when he said something. Now we're retweeting that, we're clicking it. Everybody's in on it.

And maybe poplio 14, somewhat more like us, where it's like full church unity that's less clickable, but maybe. Maybe a little bit more meat to it when you dig in, hopefully. Russ, where are you at with this? Two, three words?

Russ Petrus: 00:21:13

How would you describe length with. I'm on the same wavelength with Olivia. I think I was going to use cautious diplomatic reformer. I think he's.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:22

He wants to get all three words.

Russ Petrus: 00:21:25

He's on board with a lot of the Francis. A lot of the reforms that Pope Francis, I think put in place.

I think he has a slightly different experience and skill set that's going to make that just a little bit go. Go a little bit more slowly and maybe a little bit more smoothly.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:42

All right, all right. I like it. All right. We're starting to get a little bit better at the rapid thing. We need TJ for that because I'm the ADHD one, he's the.

Let's stay on the rails. But. Okay, here we are. Has Pope Leo XIV made any significant theological statements or clarifications that has caught your attention so far, Olivia?

Olivia Haste: 00:22:01

Oh, man. Okay, going first again. I really appreciated.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:06

You get round one. He'll start first. Round two.

Olivia Haste: 00:22:09

Yeah, Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. The emphasis on baptismal dignity as a theological anchor really stood out to me, especially how he connects it to lay vocation.

I think it lays groundwork for that synodal process. A participatory church, a church that brings in everyone and the voices of all people.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:27

All right, all right. I like that a lot. I was reading the head on the outline. Didn't expect you to be so rapid. She's good. Glad it's not me. Russ, same question, man.

Russ Petrus: 00:22:37

Yeah, I've already. The ones that sort of put some antennae up for me were his comments on family. Just because I think it was in the ether. I wanted to raise that.

But other than that, you know, I'm still waiting to see what his first big writing is, what his first big letter is, or apostolic exhortation. And that will give us some meat to chew on, so I'm still waiting.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:04

Joshua. Yeah, I grew up Pentecostal and converted Lutheran a couple years ago, so this year was actually the first time I practiced lint.

So I'm actually really excited for some of his writings and preachings around, like, lint and the Easter, you know, mass and all that. Next year, I'm like. I'm kind of excited to see where we go with it, you know, get some time under his belt and then see what he does.

All right, Olivia, we're still in round one.

Olivia Haste: 00:23:30

Yep.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:31

How has Pope Leo XIV engaged with the global south so far? Like Africa, Latin America, Asia, all these places where Catholicism is actually growing the most rapidly in our time?

Olivia Haste: 00:23:40

Yeah, sure. I think the early signs are definitely strong, especially the ways in which he's been outspoken about the wars going on around the world.

But I think that it's clear he's named several advisors from the Global south, has referenced climate, justice and migration explicitly in his preaching and his public speaking.

So I definitely think that he understands where the energy of the church is moving, and I think he has personal experience ministering in the Global south, which I think is invaluable.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:13

Yeah, Yeah. I found this question particularly interesting. I want to dig a little bit deeper into it.

Because he was the first American Pope, I think there was a lot of expectation for him to be more focused on America. And it's like, that's not where the church is at, but at the same time with what America is doing, we can't not address that.

So I feel like he still addressed it. But you don't think his focus has been primarily on America. It's more where the church is growing at.

Olivia Haste: 00:24:35

Yeah, I definitely don't think that his focus is on America. And I actually think. I mean. I mean, without. Without becoming too. Too potentially political, it's fine.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:44

I regularly say on the show that I think Donald Trump is evil and the church should speak out against it. I Know that not everyone agrees with me, but I try not to beat around the bush, you know.

Olivia Haste: 00:24:53

Okay. Yeah.

I think, I think, you know, something I've been saying to a lot of family is, like, we have these two kind of figureheads that are Americans, influential Americans, right? We've got. The Pope is an influential American, and we have the President of the United States who's an influential American.

And in my head, there is like, this clear. These two clear strains of, like, moral. Moral vision, right?

There's the moral vision of where our country is going, and there's the moral vision of the Catholic Church. And so I think, you know, I think the emphasis for both of them in many ways is not on America, right? Like for, for our, for our president.

It's, it's couched in this. Right. It's couched in this focus on America, but it's actually focused on everybody else, not affecting America.

I'm gesticulating a lot, but I, I think that the kind of focus of Pope Leo, too, like, like, I think his, his ministry and his, his ability to connect with the global south inherently affects American Catholicism. And I think that American Catholicism for so long has been considered its own subtype of. Of the. Of Catholicism.

And, like, what does it mean for us to be one whole church? Ding, ding, ding. I'm gonna.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:01

Extra point.

Olivia Haste: 00:26:02

I'm gonna hit the buzzer for myself. What does it mean for us to be one church?

Joshua Noel: 00:26:05

Right.

Olivia Haste: 00:26:06

I could go on about this. I mean, I, I've.

When the Pope was first elected, I was really thinking about this kind of, like, foil relationship between these two really influential Americans who, like, both have the, the platform right now. I think it's so interesting, but I'll let Russ answer this question, too.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:22

Yeah. Well, I do want to say, because it's easier for me to take the heat. It's my show.

So let me first say that this is not reflective of Russ or Olivia's views, but for me, it does. Yeah, I see where you're saying with the two strands. For me, it looks a lot like the battle of the soul for America. Are we going to go with Trump?

Are we going to go with Pope Leo 14th and. Yeah, they're both folks in other countries.

To me, it's more, though Trump, to me, feels like it's more about how can we show that these other countries are honoring us and showing respect to us. Whereas Pope Leo, 14, what I've seen of him so far, seems like he's saying, how can we honor them?

And I think that, like, approach, how we're approaching the other. That's also a. Not to one of our other podcasts. So, you know. You know, but how you approach the other. Are we. Are we trying to get them to honor us?

Are we trying to honor them and serve them? And that's how I'm seeing it. And if that's not how y' all see it, that's fine. I just want to say that's my own views.

And since you pointed out felt relevant, Russ, how'd you feel like, how is he handling the South? You know, not necessarily having to focus on the Donald Trump stuff.

You want to get away from that and talk about how Pope Leo's handling Africa, Asia, all that.

Russ Petrus: 00:27:28

Yeah, you know, it. It's intriguing to me because a lot of attention has been paid to the fact that Leo is the first pope from the United States.

And that's true, and that's significant, and I think that's important. It's something that we need to pay attention to. That said, I think it's really helpful to think of him as a global citizen as well.

You know, he spent a significant amount of time in Peru as. As a missionary and as a bishop there. And I know that a lot of Peruvians actually claim him as one of their own.

And there was a lot of excitement in Peru when he was elected pope, and certainly when Pope Francis brought him over to the Vatican to be the head of the dicastery for bishops, he had to work with bishops all over the world. So I think it's really helpful to think of Pope Leo as a global citizen with roots in the United States.

Obviously, like Olivia said, he has spoken out very strongly against some of the wars around the world, including in Africa. We just got announced that World Youth Day is going to be in Seoul, South Korea, which is great.

And I anticipate Pope Leo will go and be there for that. Another thing that recently came out of the Vatican is that.

And this has sort of been in Catholic reporting for a while now, is that Pope Leo actually does have some Creole and Haitian heritage, and he recently welcomed someone at the Vatican who presented him with a family tree. And so that was sort of seen as a. As. As an acknowledgment, a public acknowledgment of his Creole and Haitian roots.

I think he's going to be very sensitive to that.

He's a very strong pope, I think, in terms of Catholic social teaching and in terms of climate change, and I think you can't really talk about climate change with any credibility or authenticity.

If you're not talking about how it's going to impact, you know, the people who are in those parts of the world that are just going to feel the effects greater than the rest of us. So I have a high level of confidence he's going to be very good for Latin America, Africa, Asia.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And our listeners are regretting TJ not being here to shut me up, but makes me think of two things. One, I finally watched the new Superman movie.

And similarly, not my favorite movie of the summer. Let's throw that out there. But I think it's just as it was important that Superman wasn't just about America in that movie.

Like, they made a point that it was a worldwide thing. I think I'm glad the Pope's doing something similar. So, you know, got our nod to a Superman in there and then my nod for Lord of the Rings.

You know, you talk about caring for the Earth and global warming or climate change. I kind of prefer climate change for weird scientific reason.

Actually, we have a bonus episode that people can check out with me and Grace, Jason Kim and I talk about why I prefer the term climate change during that. But I was. My wife for the first time, watched all the Lord of the Rings movie with me recently.

And I remember going through the two towers thinking, man, if this was made today, people would be calling this woke. Because he straight up is like, hey, the planet is the good guys and this guy doing industry tearing the trees down is the bad guy.

And I'm like, man, I wish we could all just remember that. Maybe. Anyway. Oh, yeah, take a beat.

Russ Petrus: 00:31:11

Take a beat.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:14

If Tolkien, that's the thing. Like, if your good guys are starting to look like Lex Luthor and Saruman, maybe touch grass for just a minute.

Russ Petrus: 00:31:22

Sure, absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:24

Anyway, so, Olivia, it's still you. We're still on the, on the first round of questions. Have there been any.

Within the church, have there been any administrative shakeups or crucial reforms during this time that you think are worth noting?

Olivia Haste: 00:31:38

None that I really know of. Like, no. I mean, and I might just not really be well informed on this kind of side of things.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:44

I know.

Olivia Haste: 00:31:46

I'm interested to see how he handles different dicasteries going forward.

And I was thinking back to the synod process, and I'm, you know, there was the kind of faded study group 5 on women's leadership and women's diaconate, and it was sort of like, did. Did it exist? Did it not exist? That was sort of the. The cultural, like, lexicon we were living in of, like, what Is it?

So I'm, I'm really interested to see how, honestly how, like, synodal issues are handled. Right. So, like, what is he gonna do? Who's he gonna put in those places? Yeah, I'm not.

I'm not really sure as of yet, but I'm, I'm, I'm kind of excited to see what's coming down the pike, for sure.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:30

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Russ, same question. Yeah. Anything catch your eyes far as, like, reform, shake up kind of stuff?

Russ Petrus: 00:32:37

Yeah, I think that. I think the biggest thing is the shakeups that haven't happened.

You know, like, he hasn't done anything to shake up the synod process that has gotten delayed a little bit, naturally. So Pope Francis was ill for a while, and then literally nothing happens between when a Pope dies and when a new pope is. Is elected. So, you know, so.

And then I think he wanted to get to know some of the people who are working in that office and what they were doing. So it's back on track. It's been delayed, but it's back on track. So I think that's one thing I do have to point to. I think a shake.

I don't want to call it a shake up, because it really wasn't a shake up. That happened when he was at the head of the. The Dicastery for Bishops, which is the, the department that's responsible for naming bishops.

And they moved Bishop McElroy from San Diego to Washington, D.C. and Bishop McElroy is a very strong U.S. bishop, especially when it comes to issues around women, LGBTQ stuff. And finally, and I think most importantly right now on immigration.

And so he certainly had a hand in moving Cardinal McElroy to Washington, D.C. and I think that's worth pointing out. And then I follow that up with sort of the icing on the cake, I guess, is that then he appoints Bishop Michael Pham as Bishop of San Diego.

So he's Pope now, and he appoints Bishop Michael Pham as Bishop of San Diego. And he's the first Vietnamese American to receive that appointment. And he's a migrant, so he's placed a migrant.

I think he came over here from Vietnam when He was like 13 years old or something like that. So he's placed a migrant in California. It's hard not to see that, that he's doing some messaging there.

So I think, you know, it's not a shake up really, but. But I think it's significant and it's worth paying attention to.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:54

Yeah, yeah. Like some signaling just kind of foreshadow Almost if this was a movie.

Russ Petrus: 00:35:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:02

Interesting.

Russ Petrus: 00:35:03

Yeah, yeah, you've got a question about this later on. But he has also appointed some women to some powerful places, so that's interesting too.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:12

Yeah, we're about to get to that. So that's. Oh, actually, yeah, we have one more. We have one more, Olivia, that you have to do first for this first set of questions.

And it's kind of vague, but just in general, how has the Catholic laity and then maybe the secular culture at large, in your view, have they been taking to Popleo XIV so far?

Olivia Haste: 00:35:30

This is a great question. I'm very active in my church community in Boston and I feel like because I am a part of this world, I get asked a lot of questions.

And Russ referenced this earlier, but Pope Leo made a comment like the marriage between a man and a woman. It was like very. I think it was very casual and like, not. Not intended to start discourse. Inevitably it did.

And I feel like the skepticism from certain groups of more progressive Catholics is growing because there's been less confrontation in Leo's. Leo's dialogue than. Than Francis. Right. Like, Francis just kind of came out and said what he said, whereas there's some more diplomacy from Poplio.

So I think. I think I'm sensing some skepticism. But overall, in a similar way, I think people are really, really grateful for him.

I also think too, that many American Catholics are just excited that he's American. So there's something that particularly Catholics in the US can all bond over.

The fact that, like, we all are, you know, we all share something with the Pope, which we. Which has never happened for American Catholics before. Yeah, those are, those are just kind of my, my first impressions of folks responses.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:48

I mean, honestly, I got a little excited about it too, and I felt, I felt kind of lame. Like, it was like, hey, our team won. I'm like, it's not really like a winning thing, but I'm like, man, it's kind of cool.

Like, I'm like, hey, one of us.

Olivia Haste: 00:37:00

Media, the social media has been hilarious. Like, this Pope has had deep dish pizza. This Pope has driven through a McDonald's drive thru.

This Pope has, you know, gotten a flat tire on like this highway near Chicago. Like, it's, it's like so great. There's, there's. The relatability piece is you really can't be, I don't think as a human being, right.

Like, that's, that's kind of what we all strive, Strive to do is to relate to one another and and, and know one another. So there's this sense of knownness, I think, that is really delightful for, for people.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:31

Yeah, yeah. No, I love all that too. I. I do want to add in there because. Because we kind of touched on it and I think it's an important bit because it also.

Because it happens to me. Maybe I'm just being selfish, but. But there is this thing on like.

Like the progressive side of not just theology, politics, everything, like, where there's like this almost like elitism kind of idea of like, as soon as you're like, progressive, as soon as you become progressive, you're not progressive enough. Yeah. You know, like, it's always something like that. And I'm like, I know I get trouble because I still call God a he.

And I'm like, well, like, usually when I'm talking about God, I'm talking about the Bible. And just as I do with literally any book, I'm talking about the character. I use the same pronouns as the book.

Like, even if I took religion out of it, that just makes sense. And, you know, I get pushed back on that and everything else. And like, I don't even want to call myself progressive.

It's just like as soon as I took certain stances, people like, oh, no, you're progressive. And as soon as I'm in that box, people like, they want to push you away from them. And I'm like, it's almost like you guys want to lose.

It's just so weird. It's such a weird dynamic.

Olivia Haste: 00:38:33

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I think that. I think that at least my, My theology that I would, I would qualify as, as progressive is capacious. Right.

Like, it's just. It's not meant to dictate what is right or what. What we are doing. It. It might be calling out some of the wrongs for sure.

But I think, I think that the, you know, in response to your, like the kind of feeling like if once you're progressive, you're not progressive enough. Like, I think at least for me, there is.

There is space and there is room to kind of explore and connect with other, other ways of being church, that might not be true for you. I mean, I, I am an every Sunday church going Catholic, but that's because I have a really great church to worship in.

If I lived in rural Nebraska where, like, my options might be more limited than they are in Irish Catholic Boston where there's a church on every street corner, you know, my relationship with church could be so different. And so I always say to People, this wasn't really a part of the question, so. But I'm just going to respond anyway. Is that.

Is that there's room, right? There's. There's, like, we just have to enlarge in the space of the tent.

That was language in the synod document, too, of, like, I think it was enlarged. The space of your tent create room. And that was about women's ministry. But I think it's. I think it's true for kind of.

Kind of opening the door to all experiences of what church is.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:59

Yeah, yeah. And I love all parts of the church.

I think there's good on every side that I've been a part of or I've seen, you know, conservative, progressive, whatever. I love the church. I just, you know, I do know that in the progressive side, there can be said elitism sometimes.

And it's interesting because it seems like the progressive side cares more. Like they want to nitpick your ideas, and the conservative side wants to just, like, if you call yourself conservative, we like you.

And if you don't use the right label, they seem to be more label focused. It's weird. I don't know. That's probably a podcast for another time or a blog. I don't know. Russ, where are we at?

Where do you think the reception so far has been with Pope Leo xiv?

Russ Petrus: 00:40:34

Yeah, one of the things that I love is Pope Bob, you know, is because as cardinal he was Robert, first name is, you know, so now he's Leo, of course, but Pope Bob, which kind of does give him an everyman kind of feel and kind of vibe that I think a lot of people are tapping into, both in healthy ways and I think in maybe some not so great ways.

But, you know, I think that one of the unhealthy ways that I've seen is that because he is so new and I think because he is so careful, a lot of people are finding things to claim him.

You know, so people, either the more traditionals are finding things to claim him as their own, and progressives are finding things to claim him as their own. And I think a lot of people are trying to put him in comparison to Francis, which is. Which is fair.

But I think, you know, at least, you know, for a little while longer, we need to let Leo be Leo and kind of let him reveal himself to us. And, you know, one of the things that actually, more so than him being from the United States that surprised me is his age. You know, he's.

He's the youngest Pope we've had since John Paul II was elected, so it's only a couple popes, but it's been. It's been decades, so we could potentially have this pope for longer than certainly we had Benedict XVI or John or Francis.

And I think, you know, I think people who are rushing to claim him or.

Or say something too strong about him kind of need to slow their roll and understand that he has the luxury of time and he will reveal himself to us in time. So.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:36

Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:42:37

But in general, I think people feel positive vibes about him.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:40

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

Of course, I'm still convinced that part of the reason they elected a pope so young is to give him plenty of time to be on the whole church podcast. So hopefully you have. Whenever you got time, man, you know, we're here. We're here.

Russ Petrus: 00:42:53

Well, she speaks English, too, so you don't even need to hire a translator.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:58

Yeah, that's what we. The only reason we were concerned about Pope Francis. Like, we want to have him on, but, like, man, that English thing, it's a. Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:43:04

Our Spanish is not that good.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:06

Mine's not. Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:43:08

And forget Italian.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:10

Yeah. All right, second round rapid questions. There's a little bit less in this section because I figured we might take more time on this, but we'll see.

Maybe not. I'm gonna let Russ go first for this section. So Olivia gets a little bit of a break.

She still has to answer questions, though a little bit more specific concerning women's preaching in the Catholic Church and ecumenical efforts. So, you know, Catholic Women Preach Whole Church podcast is kind of the stuff that we care about. It's ecumenicism, women preaching.

Russ, if you're going first. First question, and I know you already have some answers, you kind of foreshadowed.

Russ Petrus: 00:43:43

This Pope Leo the 14th in the.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:47

Yeah, like a teeth. Yeah.

Has Pope Leo XIV made any statements or appointments that suggest a shift in how the Vatican views contributions of women in ministry or church leadership roles? So I know you have thoughts.

Russ Petrus: 00:44:01

Yeah, certainly. I don't see anything shifting from where Pope Francis was.

One of the things that Pope Francis did a really good job with was when he rewrote the Vatican Constitution that governs the. The curia.

He made it possible for laypeople, which would include women now, to be in charge of all these dicasteries, all these departments of the Vatican City State. And so he.

Joshua Noel: 00:44:30

He.

Russ Petrus: 00:44:30

He was appointing women to these positions.

So, you know, one way to think of it is Francis did a very good job of bringing women into administration, even if he wasn't bringing women necessarily into ordained history. And I think what we've seen early on so far from Pope Leo kind of tracks the same.

So prior to his death, Pope Francis had appointed Sister Simona Brambilla, who is a. An Italian sister, I think.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:03

Don't.

Russ Petrus: 00:45:04

Don't quote me on that. To be prefect of the Dicastery for the Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. So think religious. This is.

These are nuns, these are brothers. So, so the people, you know, so she's in charge of that department.

And there was some concern that maybe this wasn't the best idea to have a woman in charge of this dicastery that is sometimes deals with priests. So it was really rubbing up against people. And there was some speculation that, like, oh, maybe a new pope will overturn that.

Pope Leo did not overturn that.

He's kept Sister Simona in place as the head of that department, and I think he doubled down and he appointed Sister Tiziana Merletti as the secretary, the second in command of that same department. So I think, I think we can see some continuity there with Francis.

Again, I said, you know, we should compare him to Francis, but I think we can see some continuity there with Francis in terms of that. He has made some statements in the past regarding women in the diaconate and saying, like, oh, well, we don't want to clericalize women.

If we simply ordain women to diaconate, is it possible that we're maybe solving one problem but creating another? And, you know, I think that does. That was him as Cardinal Robert Prevost, and certainly he was toying Pope Francis line.

So I think, I think we don't want to read too much into that, and we want to give him some space to carve out his own response to these questions as Pope Leo.

But as Olivia mentioned before, there is this study group, this Vatican study group called Study Group 5, that emerges from the synod process that Pope Francis had put in place that is taking up the question of women deacons and ordaining women as deacons. And I don't see Leo getting out over his skis and doing anything until he has a report from that working group.

And I think that's what I kind of what I meant when I said that he was going to bring the whole church with him on these issues. I think. I think he's going to wait and see where, where that study group lands.

And then if there is anyone who is well equipped to make that decision and roll it out in an effective and smooth way, it's him. He's a good manager. He's a canon lawyer. He has a lot of experience in administration.

I think he's got a lot of respect among bishops around the world. So if he wanted to do it, he's the right person, too. But, yeah, no, no major shifts, I don't think, at this point.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:59

Awesome. Okay. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Livia, you know, same question. Any statements or appointments that stand out to you? Concerning.

Olivia Haste: 00:48:07

Yeah, I don't. I don't have a whole lot to add on to what Russ said. I mean, I think this is something that our team has talked about a lot.

But I did want to call out one thing that what Russ was talking about made me think of, which is that Folio went to Catholic Theological Union in Chicago and was likely in his formation alongside women and alongside women who were starting the conversation on women's ordination at the time that they were in formation. Like, I think it was a crucial time for the church on, a crucial time for that conversation. And so I think he.

He has a unique perspective because of that. And while this doesn't totally answer the question, I think it.

I think it's going to inform his appointments, and I think it's going to inform how he goes about this conversation in the broader church.

Russ Petrus: 00:48:58

Yeah. And perhaps more than any other pope, too. That's a really good point, Olivia.

Perhaps more than any other pope previously, too, he has worked with women, you know, and. And we know that when he was at the dicastery for bishops, there were women that he brought in to work with him.

Certainly he worked with women in Peru.

He was well aware of the outsized role that women play in the church in some of these rural places in Latin America, given what they're allowed to do and what they actually are doing. So I think he has a different perspective and awareness.

And the other thing on top of being formed with women, he would have been taught by women, too, because, you know, in the Catholic Church, this is a relatively new thing that women can teach theology. I mean, this is since Vatican 2, the women could even study theology.

So there's generational shifts that are happening, and we're seeing them come to, I guess, fruition with Pope Leo. We'll see how it all plays out, of course, but we're beginning to see that have an impact.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:07

All right, second question. In this sense, pretty similar. Is there anything trying to figure out how to word this?

Well, actually, as far as, like, advocate groups such as Catholic women preachers or maybe other Catholic advocate groups for women preaching, is there Anything that they're like, maybe y' all are pulling from, concerning, like, what he's been silent about in this, like, first hundred ish days. Is there anything that he hasn't said that you guys are like, wait a minute, thinking about that?

Russ Petrus: 00:50:36

Yeah. You know, not that I can think of. I don't think any of us is particularly surprised that he's been a little quiet right now.

You know, Pope Francis spoke early on in a lot of gestures, so he made a lot of headlines for different things that he was doing, you know, and of course, he, he gave these sorts of, you know, off the cuff on a whim kinds of statements that I think, you know, got. Got him a lot of attention. And I think it, he was unusual, I'll put it that way. He, he was sort of unusual in that regard.

So I, I, you know, if, if we're looking at the long line of popes over history, I don't think it's very surprising that we haven't heard him be outspoken on a number of topics that are important and close to us, just given, just given his role in the church. But also, I think, because we have this synod stuff going on, I think he's someone who really respects the process.

I've heard from a lot of different people, you know, who are much smarter than I am and who sort of know a little bit more about his internal way, his internal workings, is that he's a. He's big on listening. So, like, if you have a conversation with him, he's going to ask you what your perspectives are before he even opens his mouth.

And in fact, I was just hearing someone say that, like, you almost have to, like, ask him for feedback or information, like, well, what. So what do you think? So I think just his personality is going to be one that's more of listening.

So I think he's going to wait for this synod process to play out before he kind of weighs in on, especially these more quote, unquote controversial topics, women, LGBTQ issues. Again, I go back to that. He's. He's going to be cautious. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know, Olivia, if you're surprised.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:34

That he hasn't spoken, Olivia, anything about the silence these first 100 days that you're.

Olivia Haste: 00:52:39

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all.

I think, I think I, I kind of expected this, and I think his disposition of listening, as Russ said, is kind of what I'm, what I'm resting on. Like, I think there's a lot of hope in that. In that kind of, you know, in that presence, he's. He's taken.

But no, I was not surprised, and I don't really have a lot to add. I definitely have mixed emotions, though, because. Because, like, as a woman, I want. I want this to happen fast. Right.

Like, I want this to be like, you know, I. I was one of those people that was, like, totally devastated when the Nora o' Donnell interview with Pope Francis came out where she asked if women would ever lead in the church. And he literally just was like, no. It was heartbreaking. So I think, you know, as.

As I kind of prepare on a more, like, personally spiritual relationship to the church. Like, of course I want. I want the quick. The quick. Like, yes, it's happening now, but I'm not surprised that it. That it hasn't been that.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:38

Yeah, yeah.

I think for myself as an outsider, it kind of feels like the thing that's weird for me, it's almost like when you're talking to somebody and they need to think about your question, but they don't say anything. They're just quiet for a long time. It's like, oh, that's awkward. Like, I kind of wish you would just be like, give me a minute to think about that.

So at least I know why they're silent. You know, it's like, hold up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:54:00

It doesn't have to quite be shadow facts show us the meaning of haste. You can take a beat, think about it.

But, you know, I, like, honestly, on this question of women deacons, the church has been thinking about this for a long time, and we've had two, three, maybe three different study groups look at this thing like, it's time to.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:20

Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:54:21

I have an expression my great grandmother used to use that I can't use here, but I think it's time. I think.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:26

Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:54:27

Out of fairness and justice. I think it's time to do something conclusive on that so that women.

Honestly, the women can decide whether or not this is a space they still want to occupy.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:41

Yeah, yeah.

Russ Petrus: 00:54:42

Or if they need to go to some other place where their gifts and their vocations are going to be respected.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:48

Yeah. Oh, totally. I. Yeah, it's really interesting as an outsider who doesn't, like, have to have to.

Who doesn't see tradition as authoritative, as, like, the Catholic Church, for example, because it's like, we're seeing, you know, tradition for so long, and it's like, okay, so women haven't been in these leadership roles, and then all of a sudden we're getting really good at, like, archeology and history. And we're like, wait a minute, this might not have always been the case.

And then it gets this weird area of like, is it still countless tradition if we find out that, like, at some earlier point it wasn't documented the same and it wasn't what we thought? And I don't know, it's. It's. As an outsider, you're just kind of like, ooh, I'm looking on the edge of my seat. Where do you go with it? Yeah, I'm not.

Russ Petrus: 00:55:29

Yeah, it's like, which tradition or which. In some cases, like, which Bible, which, which, which translation are we working with? Which manuscript are we working with?

And I think the same thing can be said of tradition.

men were ordained, you know,: 1800

on has shifted radically over: 2000

Joshua Noel: 00:56:19

But you did help us get to the next, next part in this, this rapid series, the.

Because you're talking about, like, maybe women will need to know so they can decide if they want to be part of maybe churches that are a little bit more inclusive.

So the next question, and Russ, you're still going up first, how might Pope Leo XIV's ecumenical strategy affect collaboration with other church nominations that are already ordaining women or emphasizing gender equity in leadership?

Russ Petrus: 00:56:46

Yeah, I think this is a perennial question for the Catholic Church ever since the Second Vatican Council, when they were sort of trying to open themselves up more to especially other Christian denominations, is, you know, what do we do with the fact that Pope Francis is eventually going to have to meet with a female archbishop of.

Or, I'm sorry, Pope Leo eventually going to have to meet with any pope is going to have to meet with an archbishop, a female Archbishop of Canterbury. Like, you know, I mean, you know, and, and, and is. And how.

And how do you effectively say, like, I respect you, I respect your position, I respect your call, I respect your leadership, I respect your ministry, but you've got it all wrong in your tradition, and our tradition has it all right? It seems to me an untenable position to continue to hold.

And so it is to the detriment of our, you know, Catholics, ecumenical efforts to continue to hold on to this tradition that women can't be ordained. Yeah. So I. Yeah, I think he's a diplomat. I think he's going to. I think he's very good when it comes to unity. I think. I think you'll be very good.

But, like, this is always going to be subtext with any meeting and any gathering of church leaders.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:12

Yeah, yeah. Olivia, same question. How's. How's.

How's his ecumenical strategy going to affect with the collaboration with church nominations that are already ordaining?

Olivia Haste: 00:58:22

Yeah. This question made me think of my experience in my master's program. I went to Harvard Divinity School, which is a very ecumenical, even plural space.

Like, I wouldn't even call it ecumenical. I would just go straight to just, like, religious pluralism. Like, anything goes there, and any tradition is welcome there.

And I feel like, as a Catholic, I was constantly on the defensive for Catholicism because that was the first thing people would say.

They would be like, how are you in a tradition in divinity school for, like, for no other reason than your own learning because you cannot advance in your institution. And, you know, then I would do the song and dance of, like, well, and then I want to reform it. And, you know, but it's a long.

It's a long kind of withstanding tension that happens, as Russ said, when a meeting of church leaders is happening, but also when grad students are gathered in a place where they all, you know, identify with other traditions. Right. So it's also disrupting ecumenical conversations that are happening at the dinner table. And.

And so I think fundamentally, like, a good relationship with Anglican and other Protestant denominations could build trust. I do believe that.

But I also think, as Russ said, it's just going to be a fundamental tension because it is one of the first things that people kind of call out as an affront to ecumenism, I think. I think at least.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:45

Yeah, yeah, for sure, man. Unfortunately, we can't solve that. Only you can solve that. 14. So come on the show. Let us know what the solution is, and we'll work with it.

We'll help you workshop it. Yeah. So next one. Russ, again, this is you as the last one for our rapid series of questions here.

How is the Pope, you know, in your view, how is the Pope balancing the desire for doctrinal continuity with the global church's diverse views on women in ministry, not just within the Catholic Church, but at broad. Yeah, the continuity question, I know we kind of already touched on it, but that can Be challenging.

Russ Petrus: 01:00:20

Yeah.

Here, I think, is where Pope Francis gave him a really great gift in the Senate because this, this notion of synodality walking together is both an, an ideal, a principle, but it's also a process that Pope Francis put into place. And so, you know, we're going to be getting some things coming out of.

We've started this like, three year process of like, implementing some of the Synod's proposals. And different churches throughout the world are going to implement those proposals in different ways that seem appropriate to their location.

And then they're going to meet about it and talk about it, see how it's going, sending reports to the Vatican.

Meanwhile, we've got these study groups that are going to continue doing their work, that it's a little bit more meaty theological, looking at canon law, which governs the Catholic Church, seeing what changes could be made there. So he's actually got this great system already in place thanks to Pope Francis.

And if he just keeps it running, I, I think he'll be on a good path to keep that tension and that balance in play. One of the things that, again, I'll go back to, and again I'm comparing him to Pope Francis, even though I said we shouldn't be.

But, you know, one of the things that I think Francis just didn't have the skills or the tools to implement what was coming out of the Senate. I think he was really good about sparking the process and sparking that, the conversation and that dialogue and that encounter.

But I think Pope Leo has a different set of skills. He's an administrator. He himself is a canon lawyer.

So I think he has the skills that will come to bear on bringing this all to fruition in the coming years. So I think if he just keeps on that process, it will serve him well in that regard.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:34

Yeah. Olivia, same question. With the church continuity and these diverse views globally, how do we see the Pope handling this?

Olivia Haste: 01:02:43

Yeah, I think, I think Russ said a lot of the pieces that I, I was gonna say, and I don't have a whole lot to add to it, to be, to be completely honest, but I think I will say, like, the emphasis, like, I'll just kind of return to that emphasis on listening, that emphasis on connecting and another. And an emphasis on like, you know, framing diversity not as division, but as richness.

So, like, being able to kind of create conversations that don't see difference of opinion.

I mean, this was the synodal process, right, of like, creating conversations that don't, don't see a differing of opinion as a bad Thing, but as an opportunity for growth. For growth and change.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:24

Yeah. Okay, I like that. I like that.

Russ Petrus: 01:03:26

Well, yeah, I just want to add, because I. One of the things Olivia sparked this.

One of the things that is, I think, interesting for me, and I really want to keep an eye on coming out of the synod, is that at least Pope Francis was really invested in this idea that we can maintain certain truths and they can be lived out in different ways in the United States, in Germany, in Africa, in Asia. So, like, I think he's open.

Pope Francis was open to a lot more diversity of expression, of what it means to be Catholic and in ways that were appropriate for the location. And I think if Leo stays true to that, I think we could potentially see a situation where, say, for instance, he does say women can be deacons.

We'll see. Like, maybe that's something that happens in the United States. Maybe that's something happens in portions of Europe.

I think certainly Latin America is probably ready for that, South America is ready for that, but maybe there are other places in the world that aren't quite ready for that, and he's not going to force that upon them, which you could see as a good thing. You could also see it as contributing negatively to the status and state of women in some of those places. So. But.

But I think you can see a world where maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you couldn't see a world where there was some diversity within Catholicism that you can see now.

Joshua Noel: 01:05:00

Yeah, yeah, I know, it is interesting.

I think we're starting to see that more in just like, denominations in general across the field, just because I think there's just so many different nuances within it now that it's like, unless we're going to just keep branching off until like there's every, you know, 5,000 denominations, you know, at some point we're going to have to say, you know, okay, this is our.

I think if I'm remembering right, the ELCA that I'm a part of does have some churches where the pastor is a little more conservative or like some of these churches are more conservative when it comes to, like, lgbtq, where they're not as. They're not affirming.

So I don't think you're required to be affirming to be in the elca, but, you know, I think it just tends to be the case and we're seeing stuff like that.

I think the Anglican Church does something similar in some countries where, like, they aren't required to do same sex weddings, but it is part of the thing, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. I'm not Anglican. Yeah.

Russ Petrus: 01:05:55

Yeah.

You know, and I think one of the unique things for Catholics is that we really have to do some reckoning with our imperialization and colonization and to say, like, oh, this European way of doing Catholicism is the right way and is the only way that we brought into so many places and ruined cultures and ruined spiritualities. I think we're starting as a church to, like, realize, hey, that was probably not a good thing.

So I think there's going to be a little bit more openness to better understanding. Okay, well, what does an African Catholicism look like? What does a Latin American Catholicism look like?

And some more openness to that, I think, is a good thing and will only strengthen our church.

Joshua Noel: 01:06:42

Yeah, I think it's part of why it's so encouraging to see that he is working more with some of these churches in the more southern countries like that, Africa, South America, some of the Asian countries that we mentioned earlier.

So one thing, you guys talked a lot of the synodal process, and I'm thinking that might be the most important thing for us to look for in the future for those who are less aware, and maybe we should have done this like an hour ago. Could you explain a little bit more like this nodal process. What is it? What's it look like?

And what should we be looking for and maybe when should we be looking for some answers from this?

Russ Petrus: 01:07:12

Yeah. So I don't know, Livia, if you want to take a stab at this first, or you want me.

Joshua Noel: 01:07:17

You.

Olivia Haste: 01:07:17

You probably have a little more. More expertise than I do on the synod process. You did a lot more for it. So if you want to go first, that's fine.

Russ Petrus: 01:07:26

Yeah. So. So synods are something that have been a part of modern Catholicism since Vatican ii. They.

rejuvenated Vatican ii in the: 1960

A pope would convene a synod, bishops would come together, and they'd talk and talk and talk, and eventually just rubber stamp whatever the Pope wanted to do. Francis, however, had an entirely different vision of synodality, which he wanted people to speak frankly and openly and honestly.

So we saw a number of different synods. Synod on the family, synod on the Amazon, and then the big one is what he called, you know, synod on synodality.

So just if you were already confused about what C was, you were. You were doubly confused.

But the idea was to bring Together, the global church, for significant discussions about how we are in community together, how we seek justice together, and how we govern ourselves and who participates where, when and how.

And so this has been a multi year process that has begun at the very local level and it just sort of gets filtered up and up and up and up into the Vatican.

assemblies now in October of: 2023

Previously you had to be a bishop, or there were some cases where a brother, but not a sister, a brother but not a sister could vote. And he changed that. So now women can vote, laymen can vote on these documents.

And we, we've seen a lot of movement just because, I think just because of that. So we've had these two assemblies now.

And now they wrote a final document out of the second assembly that has several proposals and it's been handed over to the, the, the local churches, now the diocese, to kind of implement some of these proposals and figure out how to do this and figure out what it's going to look like and then talk about it, write up some reports about how it's going, what's working, what's not working, you know, what's changed because of the, the proposals that have been implemented. And then they're going to gather again at the end of these three years to have yet another assembly about it.

So again, the church is moving slowly here, but this is actually moving more quickly than I think the church is used to moving.

The one thing, you know, in terms of those working groups, we are expecting some in some more information about what their findings are on some of these doctrinal and canonical issues by the end of this year. So originally it was supposed to be mid June, but I mentioned that they had gotten delayed.

So I'm hopeful that we'll hear something by the end of this year. That's, that's what's been promised.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:04

Yeah. Why? Moving at the speed of the ins, but they haven't quite learned the meaning of haste.

Russ Petrus: 01:11:11

Yes, exactly. Very good, Joshua. Bring it all together.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:16

So, and we're coming up here on time, but it's just as far as like, anything else you guys think we need to know about the new Pope, your ministry, you guys specifically, do you think we see any, like, speed bumps when it comes to, like, women preaching or ecumenical efforts with the church or anything. Like, we're, like, we're going to see a big push in any of these efforts or nothing's changed.

Olivia Haste: 01:11:37

I mean, I think that one of our. Kind of. One of the hallmarks of our work is just like, creating the space to do the things right now. You know what I mean? Like, we.

We just do it right. Like, we have Catholic women preach. So, like, parishes aren't letting it happen.

Like, we have a great resource for people to come and listen to women. And there's over 400amazing preachers on our website for every Sunday of every year in our electionary.

And you don't even have to be listening to one of the homilies on time. Like, if you just want to go be spiritually nourished, like, just take a look around and pick one to watch. You know what I mean?

I think, like, in terms of future church, which we mentioned is our. Is the organization that we're also a part of, it's just like creating connection and like, supporting.

Supporting people who are doing small communities that are maybe nourished by Catholicism but aren't inherently Catholic. I think. I think there are a lot of ways to be church, and I think there are a lot of ways to exist in church.

And I think you can do it all and you can find the spaces. And I think our spaces are those places for people to come and be fed in the ways that maybe the institution isn't feeding them.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:50

Yeah, yeah. And I'll try to link future church and Catholic women church in the description. For those listening.

If you've never heard a woman give a homily, and maybe if you've never heard a Catholic homily. Yeah, I think just listening to other voices can really open up to ecumenical efforts and goes a long way.

Russ, you have anything you want to add before we start getting to some of our final things here?

Russ Petrus: 01:13:12

I think Liv nailed it. So thank you, Liv. And I just want to thank you, Joshua, for your time and your interest in this topic.

Olivia Haste: 01:13:18

Yeah, thank you.

Joshua Noel: 01:13:19

Yeah, thank you. And we'll let Olivia go first, since you got the last rapid question.

You know, we do always like to ask our guest, just for a second, single, tangible action, something practical that people could do right now that help better engender church unity. So, Olivia, what's not that practical listeners could stop and do.

As soon as this is over, they're done hearing me do the outro, they're going to go do this, and it's going to help with our ecumenical efforts. What would it be?

Olivia Haste: 01:13:47

Yeah, I have two. I think the first is connect with people and hear their stories and ask them, you know, what. What.

Where God is in their life and whether they use God language to talk about God. So, like, connect with a person about the spiritual. And then my second is show up to things.

I think show up to another church, show up to another community. Go to.

If you're a part of a church, go to a ministry that you don't normally attend and learn from, from what those people are doing and what kind of school, kinds of communities they're creating.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:24

Russ, I'm gonna switch this up on you.

If everybody just listens to Olivia, I think she had grading, and they start using God language with other people and they start going to places, you know, maybe different kinds of worship service, whatever. If they do what she suggests, what do you think we would see change in our listeners, in our world and in our.

Russ Petrus: 01:14:44

Yeah, I think the big thing that you'd see is that if people just could truly listen and hear each other and hear how God is active and alive and at work in their lives, we start treating each other as sacred. And I think once we treat each other as sacred, that that changes everything.

One of the things that I was going to say was go out and advocate and witness for our migrant sisters and brothers, and you're going to find all kinds of Christians, all kinds of faith traditions doing that right now. And it's an.

As a person of faith who sometimes can be a little bit down about the way my particular church operates, it is inspiring to see so many people of faith out there advocating and witnessing for our migrant brothers and sisters. And again, that comes down to seeing people as sacred, and I think that changes everything.

Joshua Noel: 01:15:43

Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot. Especially.

I don't know, I think you see, a lot of times people talk about we're the body of Christ, and they use that to, like, shape one another up and, like, you have to start behaving better instead of we're the body of Christ, meaning just as sacred as I see Jesus, maybe I should see fellow members of the body as sacred, perhaps. Yeah, I know that's a. That's big, man. That's a. Can be heavy. I think it's a good one to end on as we do. One more segment before I wrap up.

The easy one, I think Start God moment. We just talked about a place we've seen God in recently with a challenge, blessing, whatever, trying to think of how TJ word things. I don't know.

He always makes me go first. Give everybody plenty of time to think. I'm tj, my God moment this time because I thought maybe he was asleep or something.

And I was like, Man, DJ's not here. And I was upset. And during the recording, he showed me a picture of his car and his car is very, very broken right now, and he's a little distracted.

I'm like, man, I feel a little guilty that I assumed you were asleep and not praying for your well being. So that's my challenge and I'm going to go with that and praying that TJ's car gets better. Olivia, do you have a guy moment to share with us?

Olivia Haste: 01:16:50

Sure, yeah. I love the beach. I chase the ocean as much as possible and I love hiking on the beach.

It's like there's a state park near where I live that I love going to and I love watching the sunrise.

And I actually watched the sunrise this morning over the water and I feel like a sense of profound peace and just like this like, moment of like assuredness, right? Like the sun is like always gonna rise. And so there's like something consistent about, like, it.

To me it represents like God's consistent grace, right? Like the sun is always gonna rise. So, like, and God is always going to be present to us. That's my. That's my God moment.

It's sunrises over the ocean, man.

Joshua Noel: 01:17:36

Yeah, that's also. I'm trying to remember whose quote this is. I want to say it might have been from Theoden.

It talks about even in the greatest of darkness, the sun will rise, you know, not a Lord of the Rings. There we are. Russ. Doesn't have to be a Lord of the Rings themed God moment, but if it is, fine.

Russ Petrus: 01:17:54

Yeah, no, we.

We had a little future church gathering over the weekend for people who live locally here in the northeast Ohio, which is where Future Church was founded. And it was intergenerational. The.

One of the founding and the founding executive director of Future Church was there, and then one of our younger staff members, Martha, was there.

And it was really beautiful to see these different generations who have completely different experiences and different wishes and wants for the church all affirm each other and support each other. And that to me was a reminder of the continuity of sort of the communion of saints that we spend not only place, but we also span time.

And it kind of put me in touch with the sense that. That the work that we're doing trying to make the church a little bit More open to.

To women and women's voices and women's gifts didn't start with us, and it's not going to end with us. And that takes a little bit of pressure off, honestly, but.

But it also kind of fills you with this sense of wonder and awe that we're all in this together throughout space and time.

Joshua Noel: 01:19:21

Yeah. Just trying to make the whole church whole again. I have the most points now. Just wanted to point that out.

Russ Petrus: 01:19:25

No, you win.

Joshua Noel: 01:19:30

I do love that, though, and I think that's one of the things that I love most about getting to know more Catholic believers as we've done the show.

Just kind of that learning more that, yeah, those from the past are also still part of the church and part of my identity in Christ wrapped up in that. And that's pretty freaking cool. Also, for those wondering, the quote is from Sam Wife Gange. It's in the two Towers, and it is even.

Darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer. I don't know.

I think that's just an important note to throw in there since we mentioned this kind of dichotomy of the Pope and the President as leaders in this country and choosing where we're going to go. Wherever we go, whatever darkness may come, the sun will rise. Thank you, jrr. So with. With that, I'm gonna go ahead and start wrapping this one up.

And this is again, a CJ's part, so forgive me if I stumble, but please, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend, an enemy, or a cousin, especially cousins. They're more obligated to listen than the others. You know, do it especially closer to Thanksgiving.

The more they're worried what you share with them is going to be brought up and they're going to want to listen so they don't have this awkward conversation of like, yeah, I didn't click that thing using me, but, you know, just, you know, just do that. Of course. Also, I mentioned, you know, the merch store. We're still working on those comfort color T shirts. If you guys like comfort color shirts.

Gonna be there, gonna be nice, gonna be comfy. Those thick shirts as it starts to get cooler. It's gonna be nice.

Also, we are part of the Amazon Podcast Network if you want to see some of the other shows on there. TJ and I are on systematic ecology as well. We have the homily with Pastor Chill. Will of Chapel Hill is on there. And my seminary life.

I'm just trying to think of which ones I want to do with Brandon Knight is another show on the network if you guys want to check those out. That link for the network is also in the description below. We hope you enjoyed today's show.

Next week we will be with Brian Wrecker, which is weird because we already recorded that, but it's fine. He's gonna be joining us to discuss his upcoming book, Hellbent, and how bad theology around the doctrine of hell can be dangerous.

After that, Dr. Pete Beck will be returning to the show. My former professor, he's gonna be discussing his upcoming book, the Dark Night of the Soul and his personal journey of wrestling with BTS.

And then following that, we will be having Dr. Ernest Lucas, a biblical scholar and vice principal emeritus of Bristol Baptist College in the uk is going to join us to discuss the books of Daniel and Proverbs in the Bible in the relevance for church unity in our modern times. Of course. Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be joining us. But he doesn't know about it.

So someone does have to tell him or it won't happen. And he'll be like, what? What do you mean, whole church? What? What are you talking about? We don't know. We don't know. So someone's got to invite.