Lessons from the Diaspora: an Asian American Hermeneutic

Joshua Noel: 00:00:23

First Peter, chapter three, verses eight and nine in the New American Standard Bible.

To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, loving, compassionate and humble, not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead. For you were called for the very purpose that you would inherit a blessing.

In these verses, the author just finished giving direction for believers on their home life. Here he's transitioning to the call to stand up for what is right despite potential persecution.

Dr. Jeanette oh, why do you believe the author here ushers this call for unity and to offer blessings to those who do evil against us in between these other pricopies of scripture.

Janette Ok: 00:01:01

You know, it's these verses that you just quoted, they immediately follow first Peter's injunctions to wives in three 1, 6 and 3 7. And so here Peter is returning to his attention finally to all Christians, regardless of their position in life or in the household.

And so Peter's aims, his aim to foster unity and solidarity among believers is he's doing this by cultivating internal cohesion, tender affection, mutual humility. That's why we have a series of adjectives the NASB uses, what was it? Harmonious, sympathetic, loving, compassionate and humble.

Other ways to translate that would be like minded, sympathetic, familial in affection, big hearted and humble in thinking. And to be these things towards one another in order to be like this to each other, believers have to take on posture of subordination.

So in the, in the verses prior, like, whereas slaves and wives, they were to subordinate themselves to their non Christian masters or husbands respectively, in order to avoid unnecessary harm, they're having to navigate and negotiate these relationships with non believers. But here Peter is exhorting all believers to humble themselves, to submit to one another in the best interest of the entire community.

And so the difference is that subordination now is within the household of God. And it's not a matter of just Christian witness or strategic survival, right? It's actually an ethic patterned after the example of Christ.

So subordination within like pagan households, it's required of all those who hold like traditionally subordinate roles like wives and slaves. But subordination in the household of God requires all, regardless of their roles or status and dominant culture, to humble themselves.

And so that's one thing that is really hard to do in community, but vital another thing in response to your question, like, so Christians are to respond to outside hostility by doing what's right in the sight of God. And this includes repaying evil and insult with blessing. And the word for blessing here in Greek is eulogia.

And it comes from the word we get like eulogy, like at a funeral, like to speak well of more literally. But here it has to do with like calling down or bestowing God's favor upon others. And in this case it's one's oppressors.

So the ethic of non retaliation here is really active. It seems passive, but it's active. And it's consistent with Jesus example and his teaching.

And so not to be long winded here, but I do think that in today's political religious climate, Christians are often like the initiators of slander against fellow Christians and non Christians alike. Especially if you look on social media, you know, and the unifying bonds of Christ's blood, they're not really.

They don't seem to lead to like, like mindedness, to sympathy, to familial affection, generosity and spirit, mutual humility across aisles among believers, especially those who bear like different political and theological stripes. But I. But I think it's important to understand Peter.

To dissolve or destroy the unity and witness of God's people in Christ's name, through slander, through malicious speech is just evil.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably just for God, that. That's just evil. Yeah. Hard work. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Whole Church podcast.

Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. But it's totally fine if it's not. We don't hold grudges because that would defeat the purposes of having a unity podcast.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:29

We've got four cheeks to turn, so.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:31

Yeah, at least. At least we actually. Sometimes we invite multiple guests.

Actually the whole reason for the round tables, we just needed more cheeks to be able to turn. Yeah, yeah. That's why we do those. But I know. Really excited for today's episode. We're having a lot of fun.

I am, of course, Joshua Noel, who is really only here to introduce other people. It's my job. I get paid. Everything I get paid for this show is just to do that, which is still nothing.

But of course, I'm here with the absolute greatest co host of all time. Yeah. The one and only T.J. tiberius Juan Blackwell. How's it going?

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:06

Good, thanks.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:07

Yeah. And we're also here, of course, with a guest, as always, and today's a very special guest. Really excited to introduce, Dr. Jeanette Oak.

She received her PhD at Princeton Theological Seminary and is currently the associate press professor. I know how to speak. That would probably make the podcast better. The Associate professor of New Testament at Fuller University.

Really excited to be talking with you and thank you for, for being on with us.

Janette Ok: 00:05:33

It's a pleasure. Nice to meet you all.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:35

Yeah, thank you. You too.

TJ Blackwell: 00:05:37

So you wrote the New Testament in color, a multi ethnic Bible commentary, which is a New Testament commentary featuring scholars from diverse backgrounds and ethnicities, which offers us the unique opportunity to explore the Bible from a wider angle.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:51

Yeah, I'm just saying I realized I didn't put it in the outline. She contributed to. She. There was a bunch of different authors.

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk about her contributions in that book and I didn't put that in the outline.

Janette Ok: 00:06:01

Edited and contributed. Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:02

Yeah. Okay, there. I confused everyone. Now we're good.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:06

Thanks.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:07

Thanks. So more details in the outline are probably helpful. Yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:10

So check out the Onazo Podcast Network website. The link is below. For shows that are like ours and unlike ours. And if you're listening on the YouTube channel, please hit like and subscribe.

It helps us a lot. And it's free. It's only a little annoying once a week. You're like, man, get this notification off my phone.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:25

Yeah. Or you're like, whoa, Ready for another episode? I get excited. Like, it. Like Rethinking Faith or the Phil Vischer Podcast.

I get excited anytime I get a little notification for their stuff. It's fun.

Janette Ok: 00:06:36

How many notifications you get?

Joshua Noel: 00:06:37

Like a week for podcast? Yeah, I probably get at least 10 a day.

Janette Ok: 00:06:41

Oh, my.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:42

Yeah, not me.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:43

Probably like a hundred a week. I don't know. I listen to a lot of podcasts. Yeah. Not dj. DJ doesn't listen to any podcast. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, only when he's on it, though.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:55

Yeah, only when I'm here.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:57

Yeah, he doesn't even. He doesn't edit, so he didn't have to listen back either. Which is a shame because he doesn't get to hear the silly question more than once. Like I do.

Which is great.

As you know, we have a holy sacrament here where we like to start every episode off with a silly question, because it's impossible to not have unity when you're being as silly as I like to be. Today we're starting off with kind of an interesting one, kind of a relevant one. A lot of times our silly questions just aren't relevant.

If we were to have a Bible study on First Peter with any television characters or character, whatever, who would we invite to. To our small group? I'll go first.

Give everybody time thinking about it, T.J. and we'll let the esteemed Dr. Oak give us the correct answer at the end.

Man, this is going to show some of, like, colors of what I'VE been watching probably, but I want to specifically invite, like, I really don't care who else comes, but, like, Dexter Morgan from the show Dexter. Sean Spencer from the show Psych. Because, like, we're going to have a really good study because, like, they're intelligent people.

Dexter's going to be trying to, like, hide stuff, and Sean's immediately going to notice it and try to make the entire thing about, like, man. Yeah. I would hate to have that kind of guilt and just be protein Dexter the whole time.

And to have a character as goofy as Sean and Dexter in the same Bible study, I just think it'd be wonderful. I think I'd have a great time. Yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:19

For me, I didn't. You know, I wasn't considering interpersonal relationships with my small group members.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:24

I mean, that's smart. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:27

I was just thinking, you know, I like the vibe in a small group. That's important to me. So I was thinking, like, Phil Dunphy from Modern Family, Necessary Space Ghost, coast to Coast.

I think he would be a good addition to my Bible study.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:41

Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:41

Now, that's really as far as I thought it out. Anyone else who wants to come can come. Those two are necessary. For me, though.

Janette Ok: 00:08:49

That'S crazy, because I was gonna choose the cast from Modern. The characters of Modern Family.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:53

Oh, yeah.

Janette Ok: 00:08:54

You know, but, like, I didn't. I didn't actually think about characters from different shows. I was thinking like a cast.

But I would pick the cast of Modern Family as they are learning as. Because they're learning to forge very kind of unconventional. Forge an unconventional family among three very different types of households.

And I do think that's relevant.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:12

Yeah. Oh, I thought of a really weird cut that I'm including in mine. Before we wrap up, I'm adding Dashawn and Dexter Morgan.

I'm also going to have Phil from Phil of the Future for anyone who remembers what that is.

TJ Blackwell: 00:09:25

Oh, sure.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:26

Yeah. I just think that would absolutely make it more entertaining. Yeah, that's all right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:09:31

So aside from silliness, we have found one thing that really does help us better engender Christian unity, and that is to hear one another's story.

So, Dr. Oak, before we get started for real, could you tell us a little bit about your history with the church and coming to the faith tradition that you find yourself in now?

Janette Ok: 00:09:47

Yeah. So I was born and raised in the Korean American church. And my formation, I would say, as a pastor or as a leader, began early in childhood.

And that's when I witnessed firsthand a woman pastor. Her name was Mary Pack, the Reverend Mary Pack. And she formed my imagination for what a pastor or what a leader could look like.

And she embodied and expanded the idea of pastor, the idea of leadership.

And her example, the fact that she even existed, that she served faithfully for years, it really gave me, like, tangible evidence that despite what people said to the contrary, and there were many things that to the contrary, when I got older, that women could and should preach and should pastor. So that would be like, my early church experience. I'm skipping a lot of things there, but that was really for me.

And my formation as a scholar, I would say, began as a freshman at ucla. And that's where I discovered my love for early Christian history and for the New Testament. Like, before that, I loved literature. I loved.

I thought I came in to study English, the English lit, but I realized, oh, my gosh, I could. I could study not only the New Testament texts, but better understand the world behind those texts, the languages.

And so that's a pivotal time for me as well. It was college. And then I'll stop there and I'll tell you.

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:08

No, you can go. No, you can. You can keep going. I'm just going to ask you more questions about it anyway.

Janette Ok: 00:11:14

Well, okay. So at ucla, I had a professor, and he really rocked my world with his lectures on historical Jesus, early Christianity.

And it was actually during one of Dr. Scott Bartchi's classes, I think it was my winter quarter of my freshman year, which is kind of early, relatively speaking, I discovered that my interest in the world of the New Testament and of my love for serving the church, I realized that they could kind of come together. As a New Testament scholar, I didn't know exactly how, but it was like the first time that came to mind.

And I took every one of his classes and did my senior thesis under his supervision.

And I think that even though it was like a non Christian university, it's ucla like, he, Scott really helped me discover how ministry and biblical scholarship could intersect.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:02

All right, so how did you come into higher academia and joining the project that we're discussing today?

Janette Ok: 00:12:08

Yeah, let's see.

So this project, I think it emerged because I was already doing work on in minoritized Biblical Criticism and Asian American Biblical Hermeneutics Interpretation.

At Princeton seminary, I met Dr. Brian Blount, and he was a mentor for me who helped me see that my scholarship could reflect not only who I am as an Asian American, but also the questions I ask and the work that I do as a book scholar. And he's an African American pastor and scholar and became a president of Union Seminary, later Union Presbyterian Seminary.

But I think that that was really important for me because I wasn't actually doing that work explicitly in my doctoral studies at Princeton Seminary, but I was doing that in adjacent spaces. And Issa McCally cold called me. Well, actually he through we had an intermediary, a friend, Amy Peeler.

But he reached out to me early on as as this project became an early idea and asked if I would be a co editor with him as he put together a team of. He wanted a multi ethnic group of co editors and also a very diverse expanse of scholars who contributed to this.

So that was like, I think: 2018

Joshua Noel: 00:13:30

Yeah, yeah.

I actually I follow Esau on like everything because I heard him on, you know, with Phil Vischer and the stuff on the Holy Post and that's like my favorite podcast. So I remember when they first talked about the project before it released and then getting it released.

And Esau McCauley is really hard to get a hold of because we tried to get him on the podcast a couple times and not yet achieve that one.

And I'm just, as I'm starting seminary and stuff, I've gotten more excited about this, this commentary because I use it for stuff because I'm like, this such a unique take on stuff and it's so much fun. And I'm like, I just need to talk to people who worked on this.

So really excited we were able to do this because the book's an amazing resource, I think, especially for people who just haven't heard other voices and stuff.

And if you're in most seminaries, especially like Pentecostal Baptist, that kind of stuff, it's, even though you don't call it white theology, it's really from the same set of mind and stuff. So being able to see more perspectives have been really helpful.

Not just this, but a lot of the stuff Isamicau works on just really helps broaden people's perspectives. I think that's really.

So some of our listeners are probably coming to this conversation, come to this commentary titled, you know, New Testament color Multiethnic Commentary. And they probably have a few preconceived notions that we were hoping we could kind of address up front in this conversation for context.

Our listeners with all church podcasts, we have some people who are really progressive, we have some people who are really not in some pretty conservatives on the Baptist people Listening to it's kind of all over the place.

One in a lot of more conservative circles you have this idea of the literal reading of the Bible and that meaning, this kind of like the Bible has a plain meaning that's easy to understand and there's only one real meaning.

And some people probably come into this with that going, well there should be no multi ethnic commentary or any of that because scripture just means what it means. It's just cut and dry. Why do we need this? So not my opinion. It's just, I know that opinion exists and I wanted to address it up front.

So how do you go about talking with people who maybe suggest stuff like this or kind of have that kind of thinking?

Janette Ok: 00:15:37

Yeah. Oh, first of all, the fact that there are so many commentaries out there and biblical scholarship on the Same texts, right.

27 books of the New Testament being produced shows that this shows us that there is more than one meaning or way to interpret biblical text and scripture. Right. I mean otherwise why all these various explanations and interpretations of scripture out there over the centuries?

I mean that's that case in point. But in at a most, at its most basic level, a biblical commentary explains or interprets the Bible or a specific book of the Bible.

And it's usually written by scholars who have invested many years in the study of Greek and Hebrew and the Bible and specific books in light of their socio historic, literary, theological context. Right. In order to draw out the meaning of the text and offer critical explanation of it.

But the Bible isn't just any text and for Christians it's the living word. Right? The living word of the living word.

And so interpreters also have to grapple with what the Bible means for them and for their reader and for its readers today in our context. And here's the thing, no one reads from nowhere, right? No one.

And unfortunately the Western approach to the Bible is often seen as somehow less contextual and, and more objective and orthodox than the approach of the majority world and of minor minoritized readers in the US and so so, or more specifically neutrality and objectivity have long been associated with Euro American scholarship and many Bible biblical, modern biblical commentaries from the West. They, they, they assume that there's like a scientism or that treats the Bible like corpse or artifact, not as living word.

And and then this is also why modern commentaries are not page turners and can, they can feel so lifeless and so boring if you're honest. But not the New Testament color. Right. I think you know this book, it's a single volume commentary, but it's not a single authored.

Rather it's a multi ethnic, multi authored volume. It contains commentaries on every book in the New Testament and they're written by biblical scholars.

And one psychologist, I have diverse racial ethnic backgrounds who offer socially located interpretations that are rooted in the trust of God's Word as Scripture. Right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:17:49

So other people might hear, you know, these like leftist buzzwords like multi ethnic or diverse and assume that this is just a progressive commentary on the New Testament. How would you respond to those assumptions?

Janette Ok: 00:18:01

I'd like to first push against this idea that multi ethnic or diverse or in color implies theological liberalism.

I hope your listeners are not quick to assume that it is somehow unorthodox or liberal or progressive in a negative way to embrace the diversity God has gifted us with within the church and in the academy. Right. So the New Testament color finds its grounding.

It's in the understanding that particularity and contextuality are not just current terms of wokeness. They're not just the result of DEI initiatives. No, they actually particularity and contextually contextuality actually matter to God.

And so we reject the idea of colorblindness because God's covenantal and incarnational nature as God in Christ. I mean, it's revealed in color. It's revealed in particularity and contextuality.

And so yes, I would, I hope that when people hear words like multi ethnic and diverse, they can say, yes, like I want more of that and lean into what that means and how that can be challenged and stretch our imagination, our understanding, our ability to hold difference and nuance and humble us as we come together to interpret the Bible.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:15

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:16

So now that we've gotten some of those worst, worst preconceived notions out of.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:21

The way, I do have. Yeah, I do have a couple questions. Well, the first, everything she said, you know, amen, Hallelujah.

It is just annoying how literally every term now has become like it's left or right. We're going to like start getting where like our language has to be. Like, if you say V, that's liberal, but A is not. And I'm like, what? What?

Guys, stop, chill. Some stuff is like diverse is just reality. We live in a diverse planet. That's just the thing. But I did want to get to.

So, you know, obviously we agree people shouldn't assume progressive or conservative based on terms like multi ethnic in color, that kind of thing. But there still is kind of this tendency of thinking that people in the church who aren't white tend to be more progressive.

So as far as like this commentary goes just to kind of people get a gauge. Would you say like this is from like more of people who affirm inerrancy kind of view.

Would you say this is from people who kind of maybe take Bible as less literal or like how, how would you kind of, I don't know, place the way this commentary views Scripture? I guess would be how it would work.

Janette Ok: 00:20:24

Yeah.

So, gosh, I think, I think it's just to go to your first question, I think this conversation is vital that you're having here and with your diversity, your diverse span of listeners to resist being played by those who are using such words as, you know, things that are not, things that are of that reflect the goodness of God's grace and the gifts of God's kingdom. Like why let that be assert by the culture wars? You know, I think that that's something hopefully when we read scripture and we get deeper into the.

And a book like New Testament color, it's going to help normalize this. This what that which seems kind of unique, like a unique approach. And so that's one thing.

But you know, we trust everyone who is committed to this project believes in the trustworthiness of scripture and that they, they, they, they don't necessarily reject being associated with even the evangelical church, warts and all, and that believe Scripture is authoritative for our lives. But that doesn't mean that we're going to agree with all of the ways in which we understand what God is saying in Scripture. Yeah, yeah.

So I would say it's very approachable, it's inviting, but it's going to challenge as well. Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:40

Not like that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:41

Right. So how would you recommend that Bible students best come to and approach this commentary to get the most out of it?

Janette Ok: 00:21:47

Okay.

Well, once when we're aware and we can acknowledge that we're not objective, disinterested readers of the Bible, when we embrace the fact, acknowledge, admit the fact that we're limited in our understanding, then we can become humble readers.

We can become interdependent readers who need the witness of the church in all of her multicultural beauty and glory to read the Bible more faithfully and more fully.

So rather than think of reading from one social location as reading somehow impurely or illegitimately or improperly, come to the New Testament color to see how reading amid diversity helps us gain it illuminates aspects of the text we may not have noticed or ones we may have overlooked and also provide insightful. It gives us also limits. Our. We can see that we have limits with the questions we ask of the text, and it expands those as well.

And you'll find a lot that you agree with too. But I think that that posture of meeting one another, being interdependent, because we see in part, not in full, is. Is really critical.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I like that a lot. I want to get into some of the stuff.

I actually have any do with your contributions in the commentary as far as, like the parts that you wr. And I feel it's going to get a little nerdy for those who like Bible nerdery. We're going to get into it a little bit. It's kind of fun here.

So in this work, you write an introduction to Asian American biblical interpretation.

And in that you cite Daniel D. Lee's Asian American Quadrilateral as a reference to best understand what those in the Asian American community might be bringing to the text of Scripture. So for those who are not aware, could you unpack briefly kind of what is this quadrilateral that you're talking about in this introduction?

Janette Ok: 00:23:28

Yeah. Okay. So because the histories and context and identities of Asian American interpreters of Scripture, they matter theologically.

So Lee is helping offer like a hermeneutical rubric, which he calls the Asian American Quadrilateral Lateral. And it's.

It helps readers gain like this critical awareness of how various contextual themes intersect and affect, not intersect and affect diverse Asian American identities and experiences. So Asian American identity is not a monolith, and it is extremely diverse, complex, heterogeneous.

That said, there are overlapping experiences and histories. And so some ways to get at that is through this idea of these themes of Asian heritage, of migration, experience, American culture and racialization.

And these four elements inform and affect the other while also interacting with other social categories such as religion, gender, class, sexual orientation and age, geography, et cetera.

So the Asian American Quadrilateral provides, I think, a distinctive framework for Asian Americans to talk about Christian identity in all its complexity, but also in ways that are specific.

TJ Blackwell: 00:24:43

So when you claim that defining Asian American identity is not preparation for theology, but is itself the theological work, is that sort of what you're talking about here?

Janette Ok: 00:24:53

Yeah, so I get. I mean, that's something Daniel Lee is pressing in the book. Actually, he doesn't totally expound on that in his. Where he's quoting that.

And I don't either. But this is. I try to do that here. And so if we believe that faith, our faith and our theology is not.

Is rooted in history, it's rooted in experience and particularity that Theology is rooted in the particular. Right.

Then, then that means when we talk about being a Christian and maturing in Christ, um, but when we, when we do that, devoid of what it means to be Asian American, then we're missing something that's so vital for understanding who we are in Christ and the gifts we contribute to the body of Christ.

And so it's a way this, this idea of understanding or figuring out and wrestling with what does it mean to be an Asian American Christian is not just this thing that you do before you come into maturity in Christ, but it's part of the vital part of the process. We want to bring our full selves to the task of doing theology and biblical interpretation.

And we can't extrapolate these other things as if they don't impact how we, how we do this in real time.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:00

Yeah, right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:26:01

So you warned us not to think of Asian American theology and hermeneutics as a monolith. What kind of diversity should we expect around Asian American hermeneutics in theology?

Janette Ok: 00:26:11

Well, first, it's important to understand that Asian America, Asian American is an umbrella term and it includes a vast plurality of ethnic and cultural identities and that trace their ancestral roots to the Asian continent, but includes east and Southeast Asia, Indian subcontinent, and the Pacific islands. So that's vast. And that said, there are overlapping Asian American experiences and histories, like I said earlier.

And so Asian American biblical interpretation, as I define it or attempt to describe it explicitly and intentionally, approaches biblical texts not only by means of exegesis, but through those diverse and overlapping Asian American experiences in history. So that quadrilateral Asian heritage, migration experience, American culture and racialization, it's you.

I use it to generate further conversation and insights about the meaning or impacts of biblical texts.

It engages often interdisciplinary research, often closely engaging or interacting with Asian American studies, often includes theological, post colonial liberationist and feminist womanist intersectional approaches to reading the Bible too. And so I understand Asian American biblical interpretation as reading to is being committed to reading to, with, and for. Let me say that again.

Actually, Asian American biblical interpretation is committed to reading with, for, and about those who have been minoritized due to their Asian identity. And it proposes a way forward toward greater justice and equality for Asian Americans.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:41

Right. I'm glad you, you brought it up because it's easy to not think about the label as anything other than a label.

But when you, when you dig into it a little bit, just a tiny bit, almost half the people on the planet are Asian topographically, so that's a pretty large pool of people to pull from. Indeed, that could be Asian American.

Janette Ok: 00:28:03

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 00:28:04

So it could get pretty distinct.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:07

And to show my nerd flag for a minute, also really telling. If you watch a Karate Kid legends, there's a lot of differences between the Chinese and Japanese martial arts even.

And that means two different things.

Janette Ok: 00:28:20

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's ethnic self understanding.

You know, it cannot be easily separated from each subgroup's encounter with colonialism in Asia. Right. And there's that, there's that reality.

But despite this plurality and diversity and there's so much of that, like you said, even in martial arts and language and culture and food, for example, despite that, immigrants and migrants to the US of Asian descent, they, they, they share experiences of racial discrimination, inequality and exclusion from full participation of life in America based on their race.

to this term being coined in: 1968

Asians were often, you know, Chinese, Japanese or Orientals. That's a term so rife with colonizing and racist overtones. And so they, Ichioca and gi.

They really wanted to rally behind this banner of their own making, like Asian American as a. It's a political, social, Pan Asian coalitional identity. And I think people don't understand that implicit. A part of that into.

Integral to that is this desire to fight for greater racial, racial justice and against. For greater structural equality and justice in the United States.

So that's something I really want to emphasize when we understand the term Asian American.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's going to help.

We're going to ask you a couple questions also about the commentary you wrote in there or part of what you wrote with First Peter. You kind of go over because I get that.

Because I feel like it's going to show a little bit what we mean when we say this historical context is going to impact how we come to the book. Yeah, yeah. So it's going to be really interesting.

I'm excited to get into some of that, especially since we're going to be using this commentary for our Bible study with Sean Spencer, the people from Modern Family, Dexter Morgan and space, you know, the space we're all going to be in there together using this commentary for our Bible study. It's going to be great.

But no, in your commentary, you do focus a lot on the way that the author highlights self identity through the language of ethnicity, exile in royal priesthood, specifically, while you're also talking about more of this cosmic story. So how do you think we all could benefit from hearing this Asian American reading on those kind of topics of ethnicity, exile and royal priesthood?

Janette Ok: 00:31:05

Yeah. So in my commentary in First Peter that I talk about how the word diaspora refers.

It refers to those who have voluntarily taken on a new religious and social identity as Christian. So when you take metaphorically and in relation.

So when you take this term diaspora metaphorically and in relation to the idea that they're chosen and that, and, and, and you connect it to the phrase, to the exiles of the diaspora, it offers a glimpse of the social alienation and marginalization that believers were experiencing as a result, not only of their choice to become believers, but because of their divinely chosen status. And so Christians are learning how to navigate living as elect foreigners in a familiar land and sociopolitical culture.

And so they're displaced sociopolitically because of their, as a result of their conversion. And this leads to the creation and the need for a spiritual household.

And this household is characterized by hope that's eschatological, by familial love. And this makes it easier for believers to, who remain in their pagan households to disidentify with their former way of life.

So I'm saying this to set us up for how the Asian American experience can help illuminate aspects of First Peter. So acclaimed author Viet Thanh Nguyen. Do you know him at all? He's a USC professor, He's a prolific author.

And he explains how the universal preoccupation with home becomes really. It's particularly dire for those whose identities make them vulnerable to the threats of never belonging to.

And we can see this right now with all the ice raids that take place, you know, in a racialized way. And this has certainly been the case for Asian Americans. Our experience in the, with racism in the US has oftentimes been paint.

We've been painted as perpetual foreigners. Yellow peril, brown terror.

And we're associated with having these unbreakable ties to the land of origin or ancestry, hence Japanese incarceration and Pearl Harbor. So foreigners have a fraught and precarious relationship with home.

And the experience and accusation of being a foreigner is, is really often imbued with these negative associations. Right. Racially fueled demands like go home or go back to where you came from.

This, this can provide really visceral fear and ambivalence among those who are viewed as foreigners in a context that they're trying to forge as home or consider as home. So in everyday life, home is where one learn, leaves, and returns to. But for those who live in diaspora, home is slippery. It's elusive. It's exiles.

Whether you're exiled by force or choice, they have left their homes and they have. They. They may never return to them.

And so exiles and immigrants, they forge new homes in places where they're going to maybe never quite feel at home. So home is the heart of the exilic condition, whether it's literal or figurative.

And in the letter of First Peter, I argue the exilic condition stands at the heart of Christian experience.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:10

I struggle with this. How to read this. So, First Peter, when we're talking about diaspora, I had to look up what that word meant. I'm a child.

So First Peter is written to this kind of like, scattered group of Christians who don't really have a home across different parts of Rome, is my understanding.

And if that's the diaspora that the book is written to, I think what's confusing for me is how do Christians in America read that when most of the American Christian culture are the ones keeping people, calling people foreigners, making them feel outside? You know, earlier you mentioned that the church is actually not great at this here in America sometimes. So I don't know.

How do you read that when the book is written to the diaspora? How do you read that when you are the people who do have the homeland? I guess, like, is there a way that understanding this helps us be better?

I don't know.

Janette Ok: 00:35:03

Yeah, so this is so such a great question, because this is why we have to understand, not just extrapolate verses that we like from first Peter, like 2, 9 through 10. Right. But where we have to understand the context and the audience to which it was written.

And these are not people who are holding seats of power and in, in. In Congress or in the Senate.

These are not mega church pastors who have these, you know, weird ties with political parties and, you know, are schmoozing and carousing with, you know, their bedfellows in politics, etc. Not to say all politics is bad. I'm not saying that. But, you know, that's unheard. That's just unthinkable in this context.

These are people who have actually given up a lot of their securities because of their choice to follow Jesus and have become exilic and diasporic because of their. Because what they believe God has called them to and because of their lifestyle and their new way of living and being. And so they do.

They are at the underbelly, so to speak, of empire, not in seats of power. And that's so.

And actually, just like that in the household codes being addressed to slaves and wives, for example, also reveal that probably many of the addressees are not like masters or husbands either. Right. And so they are in precarious, potentially harmful positions when they push against the powers that be or their support, the superiors.

They're subordinating themselves in multiple ways and navigating multiple complex commitments and repercussions. And if we don't understand, understand this. If we don't understand that, we can totally misuse texts like this, not only toward to.

To support white Christian nationalist agendas, but also, you know, create. Why am I losing my. My train of thought? But, oh, supersessionist views and readings of the New Testament. Right. And Peter has.

First Peter has been used in those ways. And so that's the danger when we don't read the text in light of their larger context.

And when we read the New Testament or a text like Peter, First Peter from the privileged social location, we're often going to miss a lot of the things that are happening.

And so I would dare say that those who are living more on the margins or marginalized or minorities may have an interpretive leg up, so to speak, in reading a text. Like, first.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:35

Yeah. I was just about to ask you if you. If you thought that was the case, because I was like, I was listening to it.

I'm like, yeah, I feel like I could have never got there from, you know, my. Where I am. Like, I would read that. Like, this is weird.

Janette Ok: 00:37:46

Yeah, yeah. So I appreciate the question.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:48

Yeah, no, thank you.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:49

Which is why commentaries like this are so important.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:52

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:54

Yeah.

So as we start to wind down here, is there anything else that you think our audience should know about you or about them, this project or about your other project?

Janette Ok: 00:38:03

Yeah, So I am working on another commentary, actually, on the Letters of John for the Nice and T series with the Erdmans and a book with. I'm co authoring a book with Jordan Ryan on how to read the New Testament as Asian Americans. And, And I'm.

I'm, I'm thinking more on doing work on how, how to engage texts that are used to fuel white Christian nationalism and re.

And read them well, read them better in the ways that will challenge such ideals, such ways of understanding identity, nationalism, what it means to be people of God, Chosen, etc.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:42

Yeah. Yeah, I like that, man.

Yeah, we'll have to follow, follow up on some of those because, man, it sounds really interesting and this has been a lot of fun and you're, you're, you're great. So, you know, one thing we, we do like to do at near the end of our episodes is just kind of to ask our guests. We always like to ask.

If you just provide a single tangible action to those listening, that would help better engender church unity. Just any practical action, what one action would you suggest for them to go do right now?

Janette Ok: 00:39:16

Yeah, I think I mentioned earlier that when we commit to learning and listening and being challenged and offering our perspectives, well, like when we commit to learning from one another, we become humbler, more, I guess, self aware listeners, or more interdependent.

But one way we can begin to do this is by taking inventory of who we read, cite, and refer to in our, in our work, our research papers, our preaching, and our teaching. Who are we citing? Because who we cite, who we study, reflect who we think can speak for God and illuminate God's word for us.

And if they think and sound and look a lot like you, perhaps we need to enlarge and expand our conversation partners. I dare say we do.

And we all do, because honestly, you know, everything is set up to create echo chambers around what we like and dislike, who we listen to, who we gravitate to, and we have to go out of our way to push against the structures like social media, for example, and all our likes and what that does in the algorithms.

It's all the more difficult to have sustained engagement with faithful Christians from different social locations and contexts who may agree but also may read differently. And we need to stay there long enough in the discomfort for change and transformation to happen, for growth, maturation.

And so that's an intentionality that I really want to encourage us to do. And it first starts by taking inventory.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:43

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:44

So what would, what would change in the world around us if everyone took your advice and popped that bubble that they live in?

Janette Ok: 00:40:50

I think we would be not as scared of diversity because you realize, well, wow, gosh, if I truly do on this side of heaven, see, only in part, that means I need my brothers and sisters to help me see more fully. And I need one another, I need the other to help me read more faithfully. And that means I can invite and be.

I can, I don't have to be right all the time and I won't be. And I think that, that, that, that need to, like, dominate and extract from the text and like, get it Right.

And to be right all the time, I think that that's exhausting and it's a posturing that we just, it doesn't lead to, I think, the fruitful life giving study of scripture that is possible when we, when we come humbly and interdependent.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:36

Yeah, yeah, no, I like that a lot. Yeah.

Also, you mentioned earlier going for the likes and stuff on social media and I just still occasionally find it humorous how way early on the our podcast advice was, no, you guys need to find an enemy because that's what people like. You know, people don't. People don't click on unifying. They click on antagonistic.

Janette Ok: 00:41:58

And I'm like, well, that's, that's a temptation.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:00

Not, that's a real.

Janette Ok: 00:42:02

Yeah, that's really hard. And to wrestle and hold.

TJ Blackwell: 00:42:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before we wrap up, we do a little thing we call our God moment. And we just ask everyone to share a moment where they saw God recently.

Whether it be a blessing, a challenge, a moment of worship, whatever it is, whatever it may be, I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us plenty of time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 00:42:27

Yeah, I always have a few, but I'll stick to one for T.J. sake. Yeah, I think he likes when I do that. The last, like, it feels like two weeks. I think it's been like a week and a half.

My general manager has just not been here, which of course somehow means everything falls on me. It has also been finals week and I was like, man, I'm not sure how I'm going to do this.

And had to write three papers and work basically 60 hours in a week. And it was fine. I feel like God just kind of gave me the strength and.

Yeah, so I'm thankful for that because I feel like I shouldn't be as fine as I am, but I'm fine.

TJ Blackwell: 00:43:01

Yeah, well, you know, like that's the finals week crash and like a week from now you're going to be toast.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:06

That's true. If I'm still good a week from now, why my God moment of me? God's still giving me strength somehow. I don't know, man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:43:11

Yeah, yeah. So for me, my God moment at the time of recording, my big sister just turned 35, which means I get to call her old now.

But that also means I'm getting older now, which is pretty scary. That's what I was thinking about when I was at her house. But then my mom fell and busted her knee wide Open.

And that was way scarier, so I forgot about that. And, you know, it's crazy how God does. Does these kind of things off of. Yeah, well, I'm getting there. She's also fine.

They stitch her up, send her home. It just hurts to walk a little more than normal. So thank God for both modern medicine and, you know, diverting us from our worries. Yeah.

So, Dr. Oak, do you have a God moment for us?

Janette Ok: 00:43:59

Yeah, just on Sunday night after church, my family and I hosted an event with youth high school kids.

And afterwards, one of the kids, he's a rising junior, he was, like, just opening up about how he's been feeling challenged to, like, to what it means to live as a Christian, to be a Christian. And he's, like, feeling this tension with himself, wanting to love his friends and accept them, but also hold his convictions and values.

And so one of the ways that he brought up himself was like, he's been challenged to cuss less and to stop listening to so much explicit music. And he didn't say it like, oh, because people are judging. My mom was telling me to. Or because, like, you know, he.

He was just saying how he wanted to. It was infecting, affecting the way he spoke. And he wanted his words to matter.

He wanted his words to mean something, to have weight and to reflect that he's a follower of Jesus. I was just like, that was amazing.

Joshua Noel: 00:44:55

I'm gonna plug something here, tj, because that is amazing. And it reminds me of another podcast episode I recorded for a different show with Pastor Will Rose. This is my secondary back God moment. Sorry. Yeah.

We were gonna do a review of the song Citizens by John Guerra, which fantastic song, and thought it could be a quick little recording. It was over an hour and a half of review of a three minute song.

It's fine, but, you know, we touch a lot on American, you know, nationalism, Christian nationalism kind of stuff. And one of the first lines in the song is what you just made me think of. John Guerra says, what does it mean to be Christian in this American life?

And it's still just a loaded question. Yeah. So, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:39

So if you're listening, thank you so much for your time, Dr. Oak. Thank you so much for being here. It's been a blast. And please, if you're listening, consider sharing the episode with a friend. An enemy.

Share with your cousins.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:51

Especially your cousins.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:53

Share with your cousins. They're legally, familially obligated to listen to everything you send them.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:59

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:00

There are paid subscriptions you can use to support us on Captivate Apple Podcast and Patreon for extra content. You can support our ministry that way. If the freeway is just, just not enough for you. I understand. Understand.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:12

Yeah. And sometimes we do put free stuff on Patreon.

Like if some of my bonus content is like, in my opinion, that was too good because usually we try to keep it fun and light hearted so I don't feel guilty for putting it behind a paywall. But sometimes someone just says something profound and I'm like, well, now this is free on Patreon, so subscribe for free if you want.

You'll get some stuff still.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:31

Yeah. It's still worth it.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:32

Yeah, I think so. Also, you know, I mentioned that other podcast, some Joyful Noises. It's part of the same network that this show is on, the Anazole Podcast Network.

So check that out. TJ and I are also on Systematic Ecology on the network. Friend of the show, Christian Ashley is another show on there. Let nothing move you.

I mentioned will you have the homily. There's all kinds of stuff. It's a lot of fun. We have a, a fun project in the works that this show is going to do a little thing with.

Pastor Will and one of his friends got a grant to do a faith and science project that's going to be a mini series podcast for educational purposes that our network will be helping host. So that'll be in association with the Lutheran Church as well as some sciency things.

And later on this year, our podcast is going to do a month of faith and science and it's going to end with a conversation about that upcoming miniseries.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:22

Cool. We hope everyone enjoyed it.

Next week, Russ Patrick and Olivia Haste from Catholic Women Preach will be returned, returning to discuss what the Pope, new Pope might mean for their ministry. And then Brian Wrecker will join us to discuss his upcoming book, Hell Bent, and how bad theology around the doctrine of hell can be dangerous.

After that, Dr. Pete Beck will be returning to discuss his upcoming book, the Dark Night of the Soul, and his personal story of wrestling with ptsd. Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan is going to be on the show.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:50

Yeah. Maybe he doesn't know about it, though. So someone.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:53

Yep.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:53

Should probably tell. I mean, you don't have to tell him. Maybe he'll be surprised. He'll just accidentally click a link and it's like, hey, we're here with Francis Chan.

How did I get here?

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:01

Yeah, he's gonna show up in someone else's recording.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:04

I mean, no idea.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:06

We're ending the scenes right now.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:09

Yeah, it'll be fun. I mean, I think that sounds fun, personally.