Reflections on 'The Whole Church Job Fair': A Round Table Discussion

TJ Blackwell: 00:00:23

Ephesians 4, 14, 16 in the north American Standard Bible say, as a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness and deceitful scheming.

But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into him who is the head, that is Christ, from whom the whole body is being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. In the book of Ephesians, St. Paul explains what it means to be the church.

And here he's just finished explaining how the Spirit gives each individual, in a way to bless the whole church, and now explains how the role of those called to be church, you know, officers, should help the whole body. Leo Robinson how do you see this playing out today? Through our own pastors and teachers.

Leah Robinson: 00:01:24

I have listened to some of your podcasts and I actually think it's really interesting because I myself am a ordained minister, but I'm also an academic theologian.

And so I think it is, it is a great idea for a podcast to see how we kind of I are able to straddle the world of the practical and the world that we are called to live in as ministers, but then still take very seriously the texts and the theologies that are coming out and to be held responsible for those.

So I think, you know, I oftentimes get Tripp likes from homebrew, likes to always call me out for being a practical theologian or practically a theologian, as he says. And so I think it's, it's.

But it's interesting because I actually started out in systematics and I moved to practical theology because I felt that I didn't have that connect with the people and with not just congregations and not just the church, but also just humans in general. Like, I would give these talks, but I was speaking to research students, speaking to people who spoke the language I. I did in the academy.

And so I do think we have to keep our feet firmly on the ground while still taking seriously the questions that Josh and is it Tigus? Tigus.

TJ Blackwell: 00:02:49

You can just say tj.

Leah Robinson: 00:02:50

TJ okay. That y' all are asking on this podcast. I think it's really important.

It doesn't make you less of a theologian if you are interested in the work of humans, essentially. So.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:17

Hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast, the largest round table discussion we've had yet. I'm pretty excited for this one, we're going to have a lot of fun.

We're reflecting on the series we just finished the whole church job fair where we act a lot of people who weren't pastors and professors whether or not the theological stuff discussed in our churches and seminaries were actually relevant to their lives. And now we're going to discuss, talk to people who are pastors and professors and even a spiritual director excited for that one.

About what the answers we got were and whether or not it should matter. Should we care that people think it's relevant or should we just teach truth because it's truth and whether going to get into.

Probably get into a little bit of weeds with some of this. It'll be fun. And we have a pretty diverse group when it comes to theology here in different stances.

And rather than having them debate their stances on these things, we're just going to talk about like relevance and whether relevance is relevant to what we teach. So I'm excited. I have. We have Leah Robinson. You've already heard Dr. Leah Robinson.

She's the professor of religion and practical theologian had William Woods University. She's also one of the hosts of Theology on the Rocks and author of Bad Theology.

I forgot the subtitle, but I know it's about oppression, so that counts. I get credit for remembering a word.

Leah Robinson: 00:04:38

Oppression in the name of God.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:39

There we go. I mean, I shouldn't sound excited about that. Anyway, Pastor Matt Thrift, he is back with us. Pastor Matt Thrift is from Corner Heights Church.

Excited to have him on with us. Marie Proctor. She hasn't been on in a really long time, but hopefully you guys remember the name. She is a spiritual director.

She was pastor last time we had her on. And maybe we'll have an episode soon talking about some of that transition, getting into that.

Of course you guys remember the one and only Keno Canady. Reverend Keno is a Methodist pastor. I don't remember. Are you still at the same church? Have you moved?

Keno Cannady: 00:05:15

I've moved. So I'm at a church at Poplar Springs in Lincoln. Lincolnton, North Carolina.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:21

Okay. Okay. I thought I saw you were at a different church, but then I was like, I couldn't remember exactly.

And then we have two who are both pastors and professors. We have Dr. Peter Link and Dr. Peter Beck. I think it's Dr. Pete Link. I was like, that just sounds so weird to say Peter for some reason. Right.

Like, I feel like I've never heard that. Or maybe I just always call you Dr. Link and that's the issue.

Pete Link: 00:05:43

So we, we both typically used to be called just Pete. But the problem is because we have one. If you do that, you have a one syllable first name and a one syllable last name and nobody can hear your name.

So Dr. Beck, being wiser than Dr. Link, said, I'll just go by Peter. And I said, well, I'll keep going by Pete.

And of course I end up having to say Peter all the time. So otherwise people just don't hear it. I don't know why. I'm sure there's a theological reason and maybe we'll get to the bottom of that later today.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:12

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:06:14

Oppression in the name.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:18

Maybe. Maybe. And both Dr. Link and Dr. Beck are professors at North Greenville University, the school I used to go to. Not where I ended up.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're at Charleston Southern. I graduated North Greenville. That's why I got confused and why they're the professors.

Pete Link: 00:06:35

That's right. That's right.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:36

I listened to his point on that little part in the beginning where I have to write the school name and my name and I'm like, I don't remember any of that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:42

Yeah, that's the hard part.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:43

Yeah, that's always the worst part of the paper. You know, in all seriousness, I always feel like I lose just as many points on format than I do content on most of my papers.

But that's just a sad reality. Maybe it's because it's not practical.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:58

True. If you're here listening to this, you should also check out the Onaza Ministry Podcast Network website. The link is below for that.

For shows that are like ours, that we like to like. And if you're interested in getting to know us or some of these other people, more chat with us on Discord. We're always available. Ish.

We're not super busy all the time. Constantly.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:23

That's a lie. But it's fine. I usually dump a bunch of links in the show notes too.

So if you want to follow all these wonderful individuals or see some of the books, like Leah Robinson's book or Dr. Link helped write a book recently on Old Testament 101.

I don't know if Kino has a book, but I know they have other ministry and website stuff that I can link to. So Marie has her own website. We will be doing lots of links. Pastor Matt, we've talked about your book before. We'll link that again.

We'll get it all down there. The show description might just be a bunch of links and that's it. No context, but it'll be fine anyway with all that.

Guys, we like to start with a silly question in our series, and I just. Because there's so many people we're gonna do in either or, you just gotta give me an answer. You don't have to even give me a reason for the answer.

I just need you all to let me know and see, this is practical. When you get to, like, silliness, that's practical unity right there. That's how it works.

You gotta let me know what would be more impressive, because, you know, TJ's done both. But is it more impressive that he's defeated a sea dragon or an ice giant?

Everyone's got to let me know what you think is more impressive, defeating a sea dragon or an ice giant. Leah, I'm going to let you go first.

Leah Robinson: 00:08:41

Yeah, I think that's easy. A sea dragon, clearly, because it's water and the ocean, and so you're battling like a dragon, but also water and drowning. To me, that's easy.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:52

Okay. Okay, fair enough.

Leah Robinson: 00:08:53

Ice is hard and whatever, but you can run and whatever.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:56

That's true. I think it also might depend on the context where you're fighting the sea dragon, because if you're on land, you can always just get away.

Leah Robinson: 00:09:03

Yeah, I was going to say you get. You gave us that. You didn't give us too broad the sh. Of what was. What was the scenario, but that would be my choice.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:10

Yeah, that's on me. All right, Pastor Matt, let me know which one.

Matt Thrift: 00:09:14

Yeah, absolutely. I would have to agree, because in my mind immediately, I was figuring, I'm fighting this thing in the water, and that's not going to go well for me.

I can be a decent swimmer, but I'm not like that. So, yeah, I'm going to go there. I watched frozen ice monsters. Seems scary, but. But I'm gonna go with.

I'm gonna go with this sea dragon is definitely more impressive to me.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:37

Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, Dr. Link, what's more impressive, defeating an ice giant or a sea dragon?

Pete Link: 00:09:44

What's more impressive is defeating a sea dragon that is also an ice giant. So that's the way it should go.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:50

Yeah. Defeat them both at once. Correct.

Peter Beck: 00:09:53

Yeah.

Pete Link: 00:09:53

Yeah. So, I mean, why not? Why can't they be both? You didn't say they couldn't be bothered.

TJ Blackwell: 00:09:57

Accurate.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:57

TJ did them at the same time. The ice giant was actually on top of the sea dragon.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:04

All right. I. I think Marie is waiting, so she's home to Participate. She's. She's listening via phone right now to keep up with us.

Marie Proctor: 00:10:13

Hey, Josh, can you hear me?

Joshua Noel: 00:10:15

Yeah, yeah. Did you want to tune in?

Marie Proctor: 00:10:17

Yes, I do, and I'm about to be home, so I can turn on my video. But definitely the sea dragon, for all the reasons that have already been mentioned.

And I think it's going to be a great podcast because I think that we're all just kind of feeling the same thing.

Leah Robinson: 00:10:31

See?

Joshua Noel: 00:10:31

See Silliness bringing us together right here. Except for yes. Yeah. Okay, Kino.

Pete Link: 00:10:36

What.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:36

What's the answer? Sea dragon or ice? Sea dragon or ice giant?

Keno Cannady: 00:10:40

Yeah, I'm gonna go rogue and say ice giant because you can die frostbite. You can die a whole bunch of things being cold, so.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, Dr. Beck, Ice Giant or sea dragon?

Peter Beck: 00:10:56

I'm going to stick with Kino and go ice giant. Also, Pete's dragon was too nice back in the old Disney movie, so why would you want to fight him?

Joshua Noel: 00:11:04

Yeah, I.

I also was thinking ice giant, but that's cuz I was thinking of the Rings of Power, like, very first episode, they're finding, like, the ice troll thing. That thing scared me. Also, I grew up in Florida. Water just is never scary to me. And neither are anything serpent. Like, anything cold.

However, I don't like cold things in general. I don't even like 60 degrees. That scares me. All right, TJ, what's. What's the honest answer since you are sea dragon?

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:31

Definitely.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:31

Okay, yeah, yeah, that's fair.

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:33

Cold is cold, but I can't breathe underwater.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:36

I just let you know I would rather just be eaten by the dragon than to be gold. Just in general, actually. I love north so much. I like that. I live in the south same. It's great.

Leah Robinson: 00:11:49

I'm the same. Like, as soon as you said is, I was like, well, I'm out either way.

I can also swim pretty well, but, like, I just don't want to be like, wrestling something under the water.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:59

Yeah, that's fair too.

Peter Beck: 00:12:00

That's fair.

Leah Robinson: 00:12:01

Feels intense.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:02

Well, onto the more serious stuff here. We just finished a series. I've mentioned it already. Hopefully our listeners know.

I think you guys know about it because I sent probably too many emails and I apologize, but our series was called the Whole Church Job Fair. And in this series, we asked people in the church whose main occupation isn't in any ministerial office.

Some of the people have been pastors before or do ministry of some kind, but that's not their main occupation. And we asked them whether what we discuss in our churches and seminaries seem relevant to their everyday lives or not.

So that's kind of what the gimmick was. I think we learned a lot. I mean, maybe not TJ because he's just already knowledgeable, but I learned a lot as someone who isn't very knowledgeable.

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:45

So scripture does warn about preaching to itching ears, and we know you shouldn't let the tail wag the dog.

So how much do you all think that pastors and teachers should actually take into account what people want to learn about or what they think is relevant to their own personal lives? Is it too self centered or is that something you need to think about when you're planning something for a specific audience?

And whoever wants to speak can speak. We'll figure out the details later.

If everyone speaks at once, we'll just edit it into like, you know, something that makes sense or just raise of hands.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:19

That works too.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:20

Or raise a hand or I'll start calling on people.

Leah Robinson: 00:13:23

Is this in the church or in the academy or in both, mostly the.

TJ Blackwell: 00:13:26

Church, Either, I think either, but either one works. Yeah.

Peter Beck: 00:13:31

The challenge here is that obviously we need to know where our people at and what they need and what they sense and feel.

But I think the big challenge that no one anticipated 50 years ago, for example, is that, you know, my parents generation, you went to church three times a week. You know, the current generation thinks going to church three times a month is regular attendance.

And so for the preacher, teacher, pastor, elder, whatever, you're maybe only getting 60 minutes in a month to be able to influence their thinking. So the challenge becomes what is the most important thing you can communicate to them in the little time that they give you now.

And so, you know, like TJ asked early on, what do we give up if we do this? And the challenge is something's got to give.

You know, how can we still be relevant and biblical and do so in less time than they'll spend listening to this podcast?

Joshua Noel: 00:14:24

Yeah. Anybody have an answer for that one, by the way?

Pete Link: 00:14:28

I don't know that there's a set answer, but part of what I think Dr. Beck was just saying is that you have to recognize where your people are, but you have to lead them to a more biblical understanding and posture.

And so first you need to and yourself know what is it to biblically lead people. And this is where, especially for those of us in the Protestant tradition, it is the right preaching and teaching of God's word.

And in particular, one of the reasons I think people find doctrine and deep study, occasionally boring or unimportant or not applicable is because they've experienced boring versions of it. But the reality is that that doesn't have. That's a false choice, right? Be relevant or be, be practical or be theological.

The reality is there's nothing more practical than Christ crucified. It meets every single situation, it relieves every burden. And it doesn't just leave you there. It directs you to where you need to go next.

The problem is we have so focused on ourselves and not upon God in the Scriptures, being lived out our lives personally and as a community, that it becomes very hard to feed people.

Why would people want to be excited about the Scriptures when many of them are not born again in some situations, or they are just children still drinking milk when they should be having steak dinners of the Word.

And so I challenge my students who pastor and within the context that I get as an associate pastor, to really dig deeply into the Scriptures because I believe that the more and more you know of the Scriptures, the more you could make it relevant. Not by spending 10 minutes in the Old Testament and turning around and saying, how does this fit to my life?

But getting into the world of the biblical text, letting your mind be shaped by the contours of its story, and then recognizing this is its message and it will always apply, apply to something in our lives. But that is hard work.

And the reality is we live in a generation where the average person doesn't want to do anything that is intellectual and hard work because we just rather sit back and be distracted and distraction. Culture is an obstacle to the gospel.

And we have to, we have to, we have to lovingly bring the truth of the scriptures to it because that is the only way that we've been given to deal with this situation and how you live it out. It's going to vary from person to person, but it's always going to come back to the church putting the scriptures lived out in front of everybody.

Leah Robinson: 00:17:15

I do think it does depend too on your denomination because a lot of the phrasing that you use there, the right teaching, you know, biblical based, that kind of stuff, it definitely does depend on your denomination because we are held within the constraints of the church in which we work.

And you know, right quote unquote, right teaching and right preaching and Bible based and all of that is really going to depend on what denomination you're a part of in your, your background. So I do agree with the, the time aspect that people are spending less time in the churches.

But I do also think that church as we used to know it has shifted. And I think churches, much like the academy, are really bad at moving along.

And, you know, a lot of folks will say, well, the church shouldn't have to move along. We've been around for this. This amount of years. But if you look at historical theology, we've.

We've been shifting and changing and evolving since the beginning. So it's not a new thing. It's. It's not easy. But we are very.

Well, I mean, looking at, especially mainline Protestant numbers are going down quite sharply. We are at risk here of being left behind if we don't shift.

So I do think that while we don't have to cater a particular message to a group for clicks and likes and all of that, we are within the constraints of the denominations that we serve. And also, we might want to think about shifting a little to meet people where they are.

And that, as you rightly said, is perhaps not within the confines of four walls anymore.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:52

Yeah. I want to highlight something that some of you guys have been saying. When we're talking about the word or even Dr.

Link mentioned, Christ crucified, But I'm thinking of even the Incarnation, whatever. We take that to mean a lot of this.

God's Word was for God's people at the time they were at the Incarnation was God relating to humans in the most intimate way possible. So I think a lot of the work going back to studying it and we look at where this all came from was extremely relevant. It was God relating to us.

That's the definition of relevant, I think what happens as a nerd. A lot of times I hear Christians talk, especially those who have done the work and did all the studying.

It sounds more like someone geeking out about a Captain America movie sometimes than it does trying to share the gospel, you know what I mean? It's like, well, if you look closely at this word, it's actually used in this other context.

And it's like, I agree with that stuff's important and I love it.

But sometimes when I hear people talk about it, I'm like, you sound more like you saw a really cool cameo in a movie than you're actually sharing something meaningful to somebody, you know?

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:56

Yeah, that's. To me, that's. It feels the same way to me.

Like, old Hebrew translation, a lot of the time is like, yeah, and the first time we saw this word was in Genesis 8. Oh, okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:07

I mean, it does help with the meaning.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:08

It does help to contextualize the phrase. I Feel like people get caught up on that sometimes. But anyone else?

Should we be catering our message to our audience, or should we preaching what we think is the objective truth?

Keno Cannady: 00:20:26

So I have the unique ability to. I'm just coming up with my first year at this church I'm currently serving at, and one of the things I discovered is there's a.

There's a disconnect in what they think they know about Scripture and doctrine and how it's applied. And so I think one of my first Bible studies was I. I taught apologetics. I did maybe eight weeks on apologetics about the existence of God, evil, all.

All those things, and tried to make it relevant to the audience that I was talking to. Because to me, if you don't know how to talk about your faith with anyone else, then it doesn't become real to you.

And the issue that I have is that though I have an intergenerational church, it's also a rural church. And so some of the things that I know that might be relevant for one audience might not be applicable to the other audiences.

So I have to also find the balance and how to be one relevant, but also be doctrinally sound with. With a congregation that does not know doctrine. So.

TJ Blackwell: 00:21:39

Yeah, Marie.

Marie Proctor: 00:21:42

Yeah, I was just thinking back to the scripture that you read at the beginning, and when I was listening to it, though, the words kind of whether these words were there, but what I heard was grow up. And so when I think of that in the spiritual world, you know, we. We have to.

We're forced to physically grow up, our bodies develop, and, you know, they do what they do with or without our consent. And I think in the church, we try to spiritually feed our members, our own family, friends.

We try to, you know, give them what has been relevant and important to us. But the question you posed is, should we be catering to our audience? And there's a fine balance between that.

It's almost like you're holding two tensions. You're trying to meet them where they are, but you are also trying to pull them forward.

But I think there's another tension, too, that often is not held, is actually journeying back with them for healing to happen in the emotional realm. I love Pete Scudero's work with the emotionally healthy.

Discipleship has been very inspirational to me, and helping me to get past the theological portion is fantastic. You know, learning memory, verses, scriptures.

But then when it comes to the practicality of it all, in bringing the whole, you know, you have whole church. But I'm thinking even the Whole self, bringing the whole self in it together. I just hear the words just grow up. And how do you do that?

I think for everybody, it's different. And I believe when I look back to the generations before us, I think someone has already mentioned that is looking back to what was given to us.

I believe that the people who came before me, I'll speak for myself, came to the table with the best that they had. And they were almost. It's like they were given the best they have, but they still had Cliff Notes of what worked for them.

And so here they are handing on to me. But, you know, God, Jesus, the Bible, the gospel is so much more. Encapsulates so much more than I could ever pass on to my children. And so it's like.

It's like learning to see. It's like instead of learning what to see, it's how to see. How to see the world around you, how to see the Scriptures, how to see all these things.

And so when I think about and I hear, should we cater to our audience? It's like both end somehow. Somehow in every person.

Like, I was pastoring, and if you're going to be in the pulpit, do it well, lead with integrity, you know, be a biblical approach. I found that there was. I was. There was some areas that just the pulpit was that there's only so much you can do in the pulpit. And so.

And that's, you know, thus my transition into spiritual direction and sitting with people in their stories and healing from that aspect. I think there's a lot of variety of avenues to bring about catering to an audience, and it's not just one.

Matt Thrift: 00:24:44

So, yeah, yeah, I was going to add to it. I agree.

I think one of the thoughts that I consistently have is like, if we're gonna cater, I know that's kind of a difficult word because we're not attempting to just scratch some itchy ears. Like, that's not the goal for almost any pastor I know. But with that being said, I look at Jesus.

Jesus speaks to people in a common language they understand, using metaphor that relates to their experience. Like he. By. By all modern definitions, not giving in.

But yes, catering to teaching in a way that's understandable and relatable to the people who first heard it. So I would say absolutely. I think we need to do whatever we can to get in there. I love what a couple of y' all said about kind of just the.

The day and age we live in nowadays. Like, you really do get so much less time. And I've been Pretty.

Pretty unabashedly honest with our congregation about the fact that, like, we've been going through discipleship over the past year and what does this look like, spiritual formation? And talking about that and just saying, honestly, like, 10 years ago, your main.

20 years ago, especially your main formation was coming from your church. Nowadays, people spend 12 hours listening to talk radio and come home and turn on Fox News or cnn, whichever poison they want to pick.

And that's what forms our hearts and our thoughts way more unfortunately nowadays.

So as a pastor, I've got to ask myself, okay, I got 30 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever it is, given that Sunday, what is the thing I can teach here that is forming people in a way that they're already being formed somewhere else, but really pointing them back to Scripture as the true basis for that. So, absolutely. I love.

I was just going to give a quick shout out to my friend Joshua Ryan Butler wrote a book this past year on politics and kind of how that works. And it was the first time for me, as I was reading through it and kind of thinking about that, that I was like, oh, my goodness, we.

We really have a spiritual formation problem in the church. And I think part of that can be. Not all, but part of that can be aided or helped through scripture.

That's based in trying to reach people where they're at. So, of course, yeah, don't shy away from any verses just to. Just to tickle some ears.

But with that being said, also, what is the most applicable message you can give in the time allotted to you? I think ought to be a question Pastor should be working through, not just to talk about whatever hefty theological topic impresses people, But.

But what's applicable for. For my people is kind of the question I like to ask.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:29

Yeah, man, you should write a book about discipleship. I think. I think. I think you should do it. Also talking about politics, the ballad in the Bible, Caitlin. Chefs just got a shout out.

She's been on the show before. I like her a lot. She's probably pretty moderate compared to all of us. I think she'd be in the middle of this group theologically. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:27:51

So another thing we did for this series that was interesting is we had our Facebook group vote on 12 theological topics that they thought were the ones most often discussed in churches and seminaries. So I'm gonna read the list out for you guys, and then I want you to just listen and then decide how you feel.

The list represents what you discuss, you know, as your focus as pastors or professors. So our 12 topics. So it's a lot of ologies, so pay attention.

We've got soteriology, free will versus Predestination, atonement models, continuationism versus Cessationism, Christology, God's nature, social justice, the doctrine of Amagyo dei, the nature of Scripture, ecclesiology and missiology, demonology, Angelology and eschatology. So that's what we generally covered in the job fair series.

And that's what our Facebook group decided to was, you know, most often discussed in churches and seminaries. There was also a 13th topic, which was the categorization of a hot dog as a sandwich. That was the most important theological topic.

So we covered that every episode. But how does that list line up with what you guys all focus on? Is it, you know, close, or is it just kind of like, is that just.

Man, I don't remember what they call it. It's been so long since I've taken a class, and I'm super grateful for that first day syllabus. Is that just like syllabus?

Pete Link: 00:29:26

You're grateful that it's been long since you've had a class?

TJ Blackwell: 00:29:29

Well, not compared to you, but take it one. It's nice, it's nice, but. Oh, you can go first, Dr. Link. Is that close for you?

Is that kind of the wheelhouse of what you're discussing in your classrooms?

Pete Link: 00:29:44

So what's interesting is the way you organized it. The one thing I didn't hear directly, although you did mention, I guess, the nature of Scripture. You talk about just Scripture.

TJ Blackwell: 00:29:53

Yeah, we just.

Pete Link: 00:29:55

So one of the things that pulls all these doctrines together is just understanding how the Scriptures fit together. One of the reasons why our people are not being formed is because they have an incredible distance between themselves and the Scriptures.

Not intentional, they'll all say. Almost all of them will say they love the Bible.

But do they actually have a sense when they come to any part of the Bible that they really know what's going on? Well, some parts may be like the Gospel accounts. Sure. And they'll have a loose idea of some other things.

But the compartmentalization with these topics that's embedded in these topics is part of the strength, but also part of the weakness of what we. We have to deal with. If you go through the Scriptures, every single one of these topics is discussed.

And the question is, if your goal is to build people up into Christ for maturity in Christ, then it is the Old Testament and the New Testament that proclaim Christ and drawing people to understanding the Scriptures and to be able to model for them. What does it mean to, to. To put your mind in your life within the Scriptures. That's the way we compel people out.

So I would say, yeah, these doctrines get covered. I don't think they're boring. They can be boring. Like for eschatology. That sounds argumentative and boring.

And that's because some people have viewed eschatology as nothing more than, than a, than just a calendar. I don't think that's the way the New Testament presents. I don't think that's where the Old Testament presents it.

For those who don't know, I'm an Old Testament professor, so I spend all my time doing. And I promise you that Moses and the prophets find their hope in how things end.

And so, no, I would say that the more we help people to understand the Scriptures, the more that these doctrines naturally flow from the Scriptures into their lives. And so to me, that's. If our time is tight, part of what you have to do is you have to find ways to multiply your time.

You have to find ways to, to help people create resources to help people spend more time in the Scriptures, resources and people and so forth. And so one sermon a week is hardly going to bring you into the biblical world, no matter how great your sermons are.

But modeling for people how to read the Bible and how soteriology and how atonement and how Christology and how eschatology and demonology or whatever it is topic, you want to say, how all that comes into play within the story is probably the most effective and efficient way to give glory to God and edify people towards Christ.

TJ Blackwell: 00:32:35

Right. And I do feel like it gets taken for granted a lot originally.

Not originally, but, you know, in the past, one of the major points of going to church was that you could hear what's written in the Bible because you didn't know how to read. You would go to church a few times a week, you would hear them read the Bible, you would trust them. That's how it goes.

The global literacy rate today is 87%. And I feel like the church leans on that kind of heavily because knowing how to read is not the same as knowing how to read the Bible.

So they focus a lot less in church. How to read the Bible, unless you're in, you know, waking up early, going to Sunday school, you know, coming in Wednesday nights, doing Sunday night.

And is that something we should do more on Sunday morning? I don't know.

Pete Link: 00:33:25

Well, I'll give you a model for what we do. I have the advantage of not being a senior pastor.

So unless I'm filling in the pulpit, somebody else is preaching, and I spend two full hours with two different groups of small group leaders, and we're taking them through doctrine and other elements. In fact, right now we're going through Chris Morgan's Christian theology textbook.

These are just regular lay people, and all of these topics and more get talked about. But we do it slowly. Never everybody overestimates what you can accomplish with one little thanos snap of the fingers.

And everybody underestimates the power of every day going back and doing the small little things well by drawing people to Christ. And I just think persistence and patience lets God do his work in us and through us.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:17

Dr. Lee, I want to hear from you, too, because you teach in a fairly different context than Dr. Link and Dr. Beck.

Are these the kind of topics that you guys typically talk about, or is this way off base of what's normally taught with the 12 that's listed?

Leah Robinson: 00:34:36

Well, I mean, for reference, I teach seminary at Mercer University, and then I teach undergraduate religion, just religious studies folks. So I sort of have my feet in both pots, as it were. I mean, I.

Well, I'll focus on seminary because that's where you're going to get a lot of this doctrinal stuff that you mentioned.

I mean, the topics that you brought up, really, if you opened up McGrath or whatever, intro to theology, these are going to be the topics that you see. Like, that's. So they're not.

It makes sense that that was what was voted on, I think, for me, because I am at a cooperative Baptist seminary, and scripture has done quite a lot of damage to a lot of people. It's a cooperative Baptist seminary, majority people of color and also majority women at the seminary.

So there's been a lot that's been interpreted to be very damaging, which I write about quite extensively. I would love to have a sunnier topic.

So for me, I think the interpretation of Scripture is always at the forefront of, you know, what I teach and also what I think about in terms of research. Because while we would love for everyone to have interpreted it in a. In a, you know, edifying way, that's not always what happens.

You know, you ask people in Jonestown what is the most important topic, they probably would have said eschatology pretty quickly. Right. You know, so it does in many ways depend how people interpret scripture. So I would put that one.

And also, I am a social justice warrior, but this is related very much to interpreting the scriptures. Is, you know, what is your Interpretation, doing to the world around you, because guess what? You know, heaven is great. Hoorah.

But we gotta live here for the whole rest of the time, you know, and so what are we going to do while we're here? And so I think for me, those would be the two topics that are the most important in my. In my teaching, for sure. But again, I'm teaching in.

In Atlanta at a seminary that was created because the bap, this group of Baptists, believe that people are interpreting Scripture incorrectly. And so that really frames a lot of what we do and how we. How we exist. So the undergraduates, bless their hearts. I don't know.

We don't get into doctrine with those. With them so much. I'm sure they would say getting out early is the most important thing.

Matt Thrift: 00:37:15

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:37:16

Being able to be on their phones and napping. That's what I would say. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:20

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:21

Like all adults. No, but I get it.

Peter Beck: 00:37:24

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:37:24

Now I get it.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:26

No, it's. Yeah. Which is also why we had the Facebook group vote on. On the topics.

Because, like, my brain is like, I can't even start here because I'm like, okay, well, when you say Scripture, what do we mean by that? What do you think that is?

Because, you know, we're talking about Catholic and Orthodox as part of the whole church, and we're talking about different scriptures a little bit, too. And then you get to. What do you mean by correct interpretation? Everyone's going to meet. I would have never even got to the list.

I've never been able to even think of, like, where do we start?

Leah Robinson: 00:37:56

And the Hebrew text being a group that, you know, we have taken on but didn't originate in Christianity. You know, I'm sure the Old Testament folk can speak on that much more than me, but I mean, so it's a different.

It was created in a different system, you know, So I think that the scripture interpretations, I think, are the most important to what I teach.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:19

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:19

But, yeah. All that said, though, these are the 12 that were voted on, so it seems like it wasn't completely off base.

Maybe we'd have a little nuance on how we think that, what you mean by these things. But basically these are the things talked about, regardless of your systematic theology textbook.

I think most of them, if you open up, have a lot of these things in the context there.

When we asked the workers that we had on the show, we asked these people who aren't occupational ministers or professors, if what we went through, like a speed round, and we said going through each one, how relevant Is this to you? Kind of had them rank it.

And overwhelmingly most of our guests put eschatology, angelology, demonology and the nature of scripture as not relevant to them.

They said, they said they didn't feel like that was very relevant, but then they would say stuff like imago dei, social justice and Christology were like the most relevant to them.

I'll save my reaction for some other time, but how do you guys react to hearing that that's just kind of what people, people thought was more or less relevant to them? Does that surprise you?

Is that like, oh, that irks me because I just want to tell you why these things are relevant or like, like, like how do you guys react to that?

Matt Thrift: 00:39:30

I think most of us would probably agree. Nature of scripture is kind of a big deal one way or the other.

Like, doesn't matter what part of the aisle you're on, it's kind of, kind of a big one that forms the basis for all conversation in the first place. So when I first saw that, like, immediately, I guess I was surprised.

And then I thought about it for about 1 1/2 seconds and was like, you know, if you're raised in church or you've been in church for more than a couple minutes, you kind of have an idea of how your church in particular is interpreting scripture, whether that's the denomination that you're part of or that particular congregation. So I don't think it's one, although I do think it's still necessary to be taught.

I don't think it's one that people think of as often as like a necessary piece, quote, unquote, because it's just kind of like you're in it, like when you're already swimming in your congregation, are you even going to realize that the interpretation is different from a different congregation or from a different background in some way? So that one surprised me a little bit.

I still think it's important to talk about, but I think all of those pieces, I guess the best way to put it is just I really do think back to kind of what Dr. Link said at the beginning. But really there is a way to make all of this interesting.

I think the truth of the matter is that there are topics that I remember hearing in seminary that I was like, oh my goodness, I've got like an 85 year old white dude teaching me this topic and I'm about to fall asleep. And just being honest, it wasn't interesting at the time.

And then you go back and you think about it, you read through it, you Read different books on that topic, and you're like, oh, wow, this really is a living book in my perspective. A living book that does even more come to life through the way that we teach it, through the way that we understand it.

So I don't think any of the topics are particularly, like, off limits because they seem more boring. But I think it does mean.

I appreciated just your guys kind of study into that, asking people on Facebook, because as a pastor, I'm like, okay, well, now I know which ones I need to. To need to make sure are really interesting when I teach them.

Because, yeah, like, some people are real excited about eschatology, some people aren't. But if I can make people excited about it, like, I. I love reading through genealogies.

They're really interesting when you think about, like, the historical context.

I'm not going to stand on stage and preach a genealogy next Sunday without, like, half the room falling asleep, but maybe I got to find a way to do that. Like, exactly. Yeah, you got to find a way to do it exactly. So I think it's.

How can we find, find and inspire life change, even through some ivory tower, monotonous thought process for many. I think there's still living word in that, and that's what we get to teach. So I think it's a good thing.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:23

Yeah. I was shot in the original Facebook group vote that, like, sexuality wasn't voted on at all.

Like, because in my mind I was like, that's what church talks about. Right. Apparently I'm the only one who feels that way. Not the only one, but apparently I'm outvoted on that one.

TJ Blackwell: 00:42:38

Yeah. Every week my church just does Song of Psalms. I don't know. It's weird.

Leah Robinson: 00:42:43

I was a little saddened that the sexuality and gender aspects didn't get brought up as well.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:50

Yeah, that was me, too. I wanted to be asking everyone if that was relevant, and it was like, well, people don't think we're talking about that in church enough. I guess. So.

TJ Blackwell: 00:42:59

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:59

Didn't make the cut.

TJ Blackwell: 00:43:00

No one brings it up, but.

Pete Link: 00:43:03

Well, I wouldn't say no one.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:04

Yeah. I. I'm just subject to the vote. Specifically on our Facebook group.

TJ Blackwell: 00:43:08

No, in our subjugated.

Pete Link: 00:43:10

That's fine. That's fine.

Matt Thrift: 00:43:11

But.

Pete Link: 00:43:12

But it's important to. To recognize that the survey respondents are not by nature, by the way you've set it up.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:20

Oh, yeah.

Pete Link: 00:43:20

They're not necessarily describing what's actually going on. No, they're describing what they perceive to be going on and perceived to be relevant.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:30

Yeah.

Pete Link: 00:43:30

And so that's part of the. Go ahead.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:32

Oh, sorry. I would say it's also probably a certain kind of person is going to be part of that group, which is definitely, you know, biasing the numbers.

Pete Link: 00:43:42

Well, yeah, but it's. I don't even mean biasing in that way. I just.

The reality is, if I take my car to the shop and my mechanic begins to describe to me what he's doing to my car, about two seconds into the explanation, I've lost the plot.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:56

Yeah.

Pete Link: 00:43:56

Okay. And that's unfortunately, where many of our church members are of various ages.

And it's maybe understandable in younger children, but it's not really understandable amongst adults. As somebody who didn't come to the Lord Till I was 31, if you value Jesus, you have to value learning about him from the Word. I mean, everything.

I mean, it's very simple on one level. But what's amazing is coming back to the Word of God and teaching it really does, over time, reshape us, and it challenges us with our assumptions.

Some people do read well. I think one of our colleagues here was mentioning hermeneutics, not by name, but by concept. And I would agree that how you read matters.

And for many of us, the most important way that we read is according to the authority, what we call the authority intended message. And what I'm trying to do when I teach and preach is not to magnify my voice because that's. I'm going to die. That's meaningless.

What matters is magnifying God's voice according to the Scriptures. And that takes, for me a ton of time to wrestle with things that other people don't necessarily want to wrestle with yet.

But once you do that, man, boom. And if the light gets off for you.

And it's amazing how you can take people back into that biblical world and bring out just the glory of God across even a genealogy. I was talking to some students today because I was teaching through Genesis.

And the story of Terah embedded at the ending of Genesis 11 sets up the entire discussion of the death of the firstborn, which takes you through Exodus and beyond, Right?

And so when Terah doesn't follow through because of the death of his son, that's a story that's set there in that genealogy leading into Abraham's story, whose central test is what? He's going to have to take his son, his only one, the one whom he loves, and he's going to have to offer him up.

And yet the very word of God that seems to Put his son to death is the very means whereby he finds life. That's what I. That. That's why I want to take people to that. And because I think it changed me, I think it can change them.

And that's the only trick I have. And it's a sufficient trick.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:18

It's a good trick.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:19

Yeah.

And I don't know, I feel like for too many people, they hear some of the stuff and think that's only going to lead to certain beliefs or certain things. And I'm not trying to say that multiple things can be correct. A lot of times they can't. Someone's probably wrong.

But when you talk about the name thing, I believe you might actually be the one who taught me this doctor link with Seth in the middle of the genealogy is the story of the tower of Babylon.

So you have this whole thing of, like, who you're making a name for, and if you understand the language and why the genealogy is happening, you're like, oh, wait a minute. This pride of man thing, that's not a conservative or liberal or, you know, any kind of thing. Like, that's a. Hey, pride of man is bad.

Pete Link: 00:46:56

Yeah. So the word there is Shem.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:58

Yeah, Shem.

Pete Link: 00:46:59

Shem is the third son. And you have a genealogy that leads to Babel, to Babylon.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:04

Yeah.

Pete Link: 00:47:04

Where man make. So you've got these God man moments on these mountains of Moriah and Sinai in particular, and other moments.

But then at Babel, you have humanity making a name for himself. And how's that going to end? Well, it's going to end up with humanity scattered and defeated.

And instead what we're waiting for is to have a Shem, a name from God. Genesis 12, 1:3. And so the second Shem genealogy, the second genealogy of name leads out of Babylon back to the land where God dwells.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:35

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:35

Yeah. We're just giving Pastor Matt a lot of. A lot of fodder for his next genealogy series he's going to do.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:42

We'll leave it to the Old Testament guy.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:44

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:45

So one thing, and this is kind of going to be a lot, guys, but just bear with us. Every roundtable, we like to do what we call the Roundtable Roundup.

We asked our guests on the whole church job fair series what our pastors and professors could learn from seeing the world through their lens. And we wanted to let you all respond to their answers.

For this special edition of the Roundtable Roundup, I'm going to give you all four categories that we divided their answers into. You must choose one of the Four categories, and then I'll read you the answers we got from that category for you to respond to.

And no one can respond to you in this group. No one can respond to you or ask follow up questions until after the Roundup table is complete.

This helps us give everyone a chance to actually speak because there are a lot of us here. It also stops Josh from increasing the runtime of the show to seven hours.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:40

Sorry.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:42

So let's try to keep those in mind. Now that does, you know, don't be afraid to pick the same category as somebody else.

If you know there's something you want to talk about, you talk about that. If everyone wants to talk about the same category, then, oh, well, all six.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:57

If you pick category one, that's cool.

TJ Blackwell: 00:48:59

Yeah, we'll miss one, we'll miss three. Who cares? Somebody does a little bit, but they'll get over it. So for this one, Josh and I will also refrain from responding to these for now.

Normally we would, but our four categories are internal, which is something about the worker's own spiritual or emotional health. External, something the worker notices about the world around us. Communal, which is something the worker notices about the church community.

Or outward, which is something the worker sees in how we treat others. So do we have any volunteers to start a roundtable? Roundup. Not sponsored by Roundup. I'm not sure why they would. That's bug killer.

I think they should, but we're open.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:44

Listen, churches need insecticides.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:47

Churches need insecticides. I've always said that.

Marie Proctor: 00:49:50

Yeah, I'll pick one.

Keno Cannady: 00:49:53

Do me a favor, go back over real quick. Tj yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:57

We have internal, which is the worker's own spiritual health. External, which is something they noticed about the world around them. Communal, which is something the worker noticed about the church community.

Or outward, which is something the worker sees in how we treat others. So internal, external, communal, communal, and outward. And Marie, what category would you like?

Marie Proctor: 00:50:21

Pick one.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:23

Internal. So something about the worker's own spiritual or emotional health. We have four answers.

And I said our churches don't say much to help those who work more in solitary or, you know, more alone and whose job requires stuff like hard work, diligence, and remaining strong to do their job well. They say people's lives are busier and more hectic than our pastors seem to understand. Said our time matters even if the spirit is moving.

Too often, jobs that aren't with the church feel like they're treated as less than ministry. And a lot of people say they don't feel appreciated for the work that they Do.

Marie Proctor: 00:51:03

So I'm supposed to comment on this? Is this what. What we do? Okay. So, yeah, I feel like there's a validity to every statement that you read.

And it saddens me that this is what we find in our churches. These are the comments that come out of not every church, not all churches, not every person in the church. I've learned that.

That just because one person has these types of experience, it doesn't mean that the whole church does. But I would want to encourage individuals to find.

Not that I'm putting myself out there, but a spiritual director, like there's a pastor, can only do so much. And it's already been said, there are so many topics we can bring into the church setting in a creative way, but you're only limited with your time.

And I do believe that if a team were to partner together and have a variety of things offered, not just programs, but opportunities for people to engage with one another and to nurture the internal part of them, the emotional part, the spiritual health, their own spirituality. I don't know if it's Augustine who said this. There's John Calvin, I think, said this too. But knowing yourself is knowing God.

Knowing God is knowing yourself. And like, this is the same, you know, different sides of the same question. And when you get to know God, you can know yourself better.

And I don't know.

Leah Robinson: 00:52:30

I just.

Marie Proctor: 00:52:31

Yeah, there was so much that you said there. I wish I would have had the list to look at those statements. But I do believe there is that validity in what each of them said.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:41

All right. And Kino, do you want to go next?

Keno Cannady: 00:52:45

All right, I'm going to piggyback off Marie with the internal. And I agree with her, that is validity in all of those things.

And what she was talking about earlier, which pricked my ears about the wholeness of the person. Let me also say this. I had just graduated last May with my mdiv, and then I just went into June.

This is my first year and a half getting my master's in mental health. And so I'm recognizing the crossroads for spirituality and mental health and trying to help folks with the wholeness of the person.

And so it's interesting that you do not have the opportunity to teach certain things as a pastor.

But what I have been doing, which the congregation doesn't know, is that I have been pushing emotional health and spirituality in every sermon and every. Any Bible study that I teach. I even forced them during Lent, instead of reading the whole.

The old Lenten books devotional, we did the 40 days journey which helped being.

Helped doing the practice, being the presence of God in the stillness of God, not in the business of life, but finding him in the quiet space where he always shows up.

And so recognizing that, yes, we are busy, yes, folks don't get recognized for what they do, but if you work on your own relationship and knowing how you are with God and how God is with you, then it would actually all the other stuff would not matter. Because I agree with Dr. Link when he was talking about the Scriptures. And that brought me back to what Jesus said.

If I be lifted up, I'll draw men unto me. So we just talk about Jesus and everything that we do and how he was as a whole being. Then we can also share that with. With the congregation.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:36

All right, I like that. Pastor Matt, Pastor Thrift, which category would you like to choose?

Matt Thrift: 00:54:43

I'm gonna go with. I mean, I'm. I'm interested in that last one, but I'm gonna go with communal. Want to hear a little bit about that?

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:50

All right, so communal, which was something the worker notices about the church community.

And the answers we got for that were that we focus on too much on theology and making sure everyone knows about God, but not enough on our relationship to God and one another. We also got church people tip way less than others and are rude. That is, specifically after church on Sunday, in restaurants.

We had one who said they really love the church. He sometimes relies on churches to help those in need if he can't do anything for them. That was a police officer saying that.

And we got too often that people pursue certain careers or goals because the church inspired them to do good. And then they get criticized by the church for how they go about it.

And we also got that pastors should consult people in their congregations about their expertise before talking about certain current events that they may not be experts of. And that comes from. We know a lot of people in the research triangle, which.

A lot of times you were preaching in the research triangle, you're preaching to some pretty smart folks. That just kind of happens. But what do you have to say about that, Pastor Matt?

Matt Thrift: 00:56:03

Yeah, I mean, first off, sorry, because I'm pretty confident I've seen that tipping situation myself. But with that being said, no, I. I think genuinely. I mean, I don't even know that it needs to be said that that's. That's valid because. Yeah, it is.

I mean, we've. We've probably all experienced elements of that before, but.

Yeah, you know, I guess what I would say is thinking through that, like, I grew up In a church that had a very high value on theology and reading through Genesis to Revelation and then kick that back off again again, it took like two years to get through and go through. And, and I don't want to say there's anything wrong with certain ways of doing that.

There, there's not that I don't think that we should leave parts out. I, I understand that.

But I would also say, like, in my experience, when it comes to the conversation of theology versus, I guess, kind of this whole conversation, like churches spend too much time talking about theology and not enough time to talking about personal application, becoming better people, that sort of thing.

I think, unfortunately there are so many churches that teach theology without realizing that your theology has to change the whole person in the first place, that this, this book that we love or proclaim to say should influence every aspect of our lives.

And so as we've already said, I've sat through a lot of boring messages on theology that didn't have a lot of heart behind them, and I think we need to fix that.

And then when it comes to kind of the personal side of Christians just not being, I guess, the nicest people outside of church, it's a critique I've heard about a billion and a half times and I think is unfortunately true in a lot of cases.

I always tell people, back in Maryland, where I grew up, there was a, a book that got put out like a little phone book of Christian, like carpenters and plumbers and all the things. It was supposed to be this encouragement to go find when you need a new deck built, like find the Christian contractor, support Christian businesses.

And I don't, I don't want to talk crap on that, but I will say I legitimately had times where I would look at that book and then intentionally not, not call those people because I knew that I was going to get ripped off, especially as a pastor, because it had happened so, so so many times where people would say, oh well, sorry we couldn't get it finished, but you're a pastor, you understand like that sort of thing. And I think Christians can unfortunately be some of the worst. It's just the sad reality.

And so there's an aspect in which I think we've probably really spent too much time as the church focusing on these high level theological terminologies.

And, and pastors are more concerned with impressing their congregations with their Greek knowledge than they are about forming them into people who actually image God. Well, like, I think that's an unfortunate reality.

So I guess what I would say Is in summary, sorry that that's happened, because truthfully, it's about all I can say. And I understand, like, as. As a pastor, I've. I've been burned by church people a whole lot more than I have by people outside of the faith.

And the reality is we need to do better. I. I think we need to teach things that form people into the body of Christ instead of just feeding their brains and sending better people to hell.

I'm not super interested in that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:41

Yeah. All right. And Dr. Peter Beck. Isn't it funny? I can lead doctor like that, and four people are like, I'm just gonna talk to me. Dr.

Beck, which category are you gonna take for us today?

Peter Beck: 00:59:54

The outward.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:56

All right, so the outward category, which something the workers saw and how we treat others, which we was going into places and talking to people with an ulterior motive is very noticeable and not helpful. And we need to genuinely engage with others without just hoping to convert them.

Pastors often come off like they have an agenda rather than just trying to be present. And a lot of us just want someone to be there with us. And that service means something different outside of the church context.

And it's harder than we might make it seem. They said we need radical hospitality in churches and restaurants. So what do you have to say about that?

Peter Beck: 01:00:41

Having grown up not quite in the church, but having lived outside the world. You know, I spent a decade in advertising some time in the army a while back.

Yeah, I've seen all those things, you know, what I call the gun belt gospel approach, where, you know, we want to talk about how many people we reached or how many people we saved or whatever. But I think that's where the key is. It's that relationship relational, driven evangelism.

I think you can apply that model to discipleship or apologetics. I recently went to basically a meal hosted by another college here in the area and sat next to an evolutionary biologist.

And I think he came in with very strong preconceptions of what he expected of me, especially when I found out that I'm a Christian studies professor.

But at the end of it, I thought the most telling remark was, wow, if I knew there were more people like you at your school, I would have reached out long ago. And I think some of that's, you know, pride or maybe arrogance on his part, but. Or ignorance.

But I think a lot of it is, we have been bullies in a sense, or, you know, we want to be bold and strong, you know, because we've been encouraging our folks from the pulpit. You need to be strong in the face of, you know, challenges. But I think part of it is just, you know, they're right.

Pete Link: 01:01:53

We.

Peter Beck: 01:01:53

We do lack authenticity. But the question is, can I be authentic and still accomplish the ministry goal, you know, of evangelizing?

Or if I meet somebody at the hospital, you know, can I smoothly, authentically, naturally transition from, wow, that's. That's a horrible situation. Have you thought about. I mean, in my case, just give you a real quick, random example.

I've just in the last two years, been diagnosed with PTSD for my service a long, long time ago, and I'm in the Veterans Administration system, and none of those counselors are Christians or are allowed to talk about their faith. If they are, some of them clearly were not.

But it's been interesting to interact with them and go, okay, here's who I am right now and what I'm struggling with, yet, you know, be able then to turn and talk about how my faith is impacted, how I'm reacting or not reacting well or whatever. And so I think it's just part of that.

You know, what, the younger generation and the professors all have experienced this with our undergrads and when you guys were students a while back, they just want us to be real. And I think we owe that to the people we talk to, whether they're church members or, you know, strangers we meet on the street.

ized evangelism plan from the: 1950

Joshua Noel: 01:03:23

Yeah.

Peter Beck: 01:03:23

Talk to them and find out who they are and where they're at and see where the conversation goes from there.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:28

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:29

All right, I like that.

Leah Robinson: 01:03:31

Can I go next? Because I also chose outward.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:33

Yes.

Leah Robinson: 01:03:34

Also, Dr. Beck, I agree with a great majority of what you said.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:39

Yes.

Leah Robinson: 01:03:39

Also, that made me giggle at the end.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:42

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 01:03:44

So I think there is something that I did want to bring up that's connected to this. But we do talk about theology sometimes, especially in the context of the church. And I do think the.

That the way that a lot of theologians understand theology is that it's an interpretation of the text of a sermon, of an incident, an interaction. So it means that it empowers your congregation and empowers people to be theologians on their own.

So when we talk about outward, we're saying what has. What we've done or what Someone has experienced who's a Christian influence their theology.

Now, that's very different from a high end, if you want to call it systematic academic theology or whatever. This is the actual theology that's on the ground. So I want to really empower people to say that you are all theologians.

When you hear the text or you hear a sermon and you go out and do something, that is theology. Now, what you take from that is your own flair. But I do think.

So I want to put that in the sand because I've heard a lot of theology being thrown around. And I think it's important to distinguish if you're talking about what you learned in seminary versus, you know, what.

What's actually happening in the world. I do think that we. Exactly what Dr. Buck said is that we have this prescribed notion of how we need to be Christian, especially if you.

I grew up, full disclosure, Southern Baptist, right? So my understanding of a lot of my early years of theology were based very much on you gotta go out and evangelize. I grew up in Georgia.

How many people do you think I was evangelizing in North Georgia? Not a lot. But we still had these tools, right? We were supposed to go out and spread the word and blah, blah, blah and all that kind of thing.

And so what we've done is we've created a copy context where people are suspicious of us because we had this whole, you know, these generations of folks, like Dr. Breck said from the 50s onward that have, you know, come out, and if they start talking, you know, and I live now in Charlotte, North Carolina.

If I say I'm a Christian, people are like, oh. And kind of make a face and, like, walk away, you know. And so I think it's.

Pete Link: 01:05:58

We.

Leah Robinson: 01:05:58

We've created this situation. Now what we do with it. Well, you can do what one of two things you can, or one of many things.

g out in it and live out your: 1950

They care that you don't have hidden agendas for them.

And I think a lot of the times when we speak to people and we say we're Christian, they go back to this version that maybe they grew up or maybe they were even harmed by. And I think that's important too.

Also, you know, I do think the stuff in the news, Christian Nationalism, Christianity being associated with political violence and things that maybe they don't seem so Christian is not helping our cause either. Now that's a much bigger issue and one that maybe we can't particularly, you know, individually change.

But we can certainly bring it up and talk about it. And this is where the social justice stuff comes in as well as while we're doing theology out in the world, we can tip better.

You know, we can speak out about injustices that we see and we can say that this is based on my faith. We can change that narrative if we so choose. So that's my version of a sermon over.

TJ Blackwell: 01:07:25

All right, and so Dr. Pete link, which category are you going to take for us today?

Pete Link: 01:07:31

Well, nobody's done external yet, correct?

TJ Blackwell: 01:07:34

That's right. But you don't have to, you can.

Pete Link: 01:07:36

Well, we'll do it. Why not? Hey, I'm an equal opportunity offender. We got this working here, all right, so guide us through this.

TJ Blackwell: 01:07:44

Alright, so external was something that the worker notices about the world around us. And you printed off the outline, right? So you could keep looking at it?

Pete Link: 01:07:52

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 01:07:52

So you have the list, but I'm going to read it anyway. There are emergencies all around us and the medical workers often don't get the support and time that they need to care for themselves.

It said people treat other people more poorly than pastors seem to imagine, which includes church people and sometimes especially church people. They said that mental health in children today is more serious and prevalent than many know.

And they said that political agendas from both sides have negatively impacted real lives and not just culture war. Culture war, ID poll stuff. So how do you address those things?

Pete Link: 01:08:31

Okay, I think what's amazing about these observations is they take you Back to Genesis 3 and one of the, one of the problems that I have and we all have is that we feel like the moment we're in is either the worst or the best or what have you. We lose sight of what's permanent and we make what's permanent what's passing. And what's passing what's permanent.

There are have always been emergencies all over the world. And what's great is the challenge church.

Now that the church has been unleashed, the sending of the Spirit, the church can enter into all those emergencies that every part of the world comes to.

And the people who work on the front lines in our church, we have a massive ministry to frontline workers in medical, police officer first responders and so forth. And we've developed ministries along that. Why have we done that?

Because it worked out that in how God shaped our particular church, Crossroads Community Church. We had people there who loved Jesus, and that was the sphere they were in. And they brought the gospel to it.

They brought their knowledge of the scriptures. So the scriptures and theology were not the obstacle to it.

It was making sure, hey, I'm going to live out the theology in this part of the world that God has placed me in. And it's true that sometimes people are treated more poorly.

And when people say things like maybe, just maybe, the pastor doesn't understand how poorly I'm being treated, they may be correct. But the reality is most of us have pretty rotten days.

And what I hear in that comment is like an assumption that the pastor can't anticipate everything that's gone wrong in my life. And listen, how do you get through that? You have genuine relationships with people.

So the pain you're going through, the agony you are going through, that you need help and you need God's presence with you through his people, that you bond together with people around the scriptures. Our whole life group ministry that I'm in charge of is about if you take.

Take the people of God and you let them wrestle with the scriptures and you take them through observation, interpretation, and application.

Those conversations bind up the broken and give us a language to be there and to recognize that not only just one person or two persons or three persons in a congregation need to treat people better, but we all do. So all of these problems are diagnosed exactly right. They're from our perspective. We're all going through it.

And the answer is more Bible, more gospel, more people moved by the spirit to go and live it out. Because, yeah, children are in a mental health crisis.

We've destroyed as a culture the institution of marriage, and that has made things very unstable for children. There's some other factors beyond that, but that's at least one of the major factors. So how do we help as the church people with that?

Joshua Noel: 01:11:32

Well.

Pete Link: 01:11:34

We get up close and help people before they get married, in their marriage and after the if there's been an explosion of their marriages. And we step in with the gospel in all of those moments. And what we don't need is just a pastor or a program.

We need people who are so focused on the gospel that by God's spirit, by God's word, they rush out and meet these broken problems. Now, as part the of that, this last thing here mentions political agendas. So there's two extremes here.

One is to preach a gospel that is so devoid from political realities that we separate theology and politics from each other. And that typically doesn't go too well.

It also doesn't go well when your politics and theology overlap in such a way that you do where the politics governs your theology. So I think that that observation is not wrong, but that doesn't mean you don't do politics.

You have to be able to share the gospel with people before, during, and after an election. And part of being in South Carolina is every four years, everyone in the country pretends like we matter.

And everybody comes and everybody calls and everybody listens. And our people get passionate, they get excited.

And some of that's excellent if we can prioritize the gospel and bring the gospel into how we politic. So one of the things we challenge folks to do is don't demonize your political enemy.

You can be honest about where you disagree, but don't go beyond that into this massive amount or even small amount of demonization, because you don't have to. People know the score.

So in all of these things, helping people to connect the gospel to this very broken world, everything that is being described here as an obstacle when I'm trying to say this is the opportunity. We are a generation appointed by God's Word and God's spirit to go out and meet these challenges. And Christ is sufficient. Scriptures are sufficient.

The Word of God is sufficient in every sense of the Word to propel us to this ministry.

And so that's the way that the church gets focused on the Great Commission, the Great Commandments being lived out in this world that desperately needs life in Jesus.

TJ Blackwell: 01:13:48

All right, all right. So I'm pretty sure I got everybody. Raise your hand if I didn't get you. Sorry, Dr. Beck, no camera, but I.

Joshua Noel: 01:13:59

Know I got him.

TJ Blackwell: 01:13:59

So did anyone have anything to add to that that they would like to respond to? Somebody else said or just would like to add to the conversation? Not the. The roundup is complete.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:10

I know no one voted sexuality for her, I think, but to Leah Robinson. Dr. Leah. She mentioned how everyone's a theologian. I think a great example.

If you've ever watched Hunchback of Notre Dame, Disney's animated film, and had an opinion about Frodo, just period. That's theology. There's no way to have opinion about him. That's not theology.

TJ Blackwell: 01:14:34

All right. Anything else? Cool.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:36

Disney animation, I guess, is the only thing that we needed to touch on further. Yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:14:39

His name's Frollo, by the way.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:41

Oh, my bad.

Leah Robinson: 01:14:42

I will say, I do think that sometimes we simplify what our task is as ministers and as educators. And I think that is a difficult or an ill advised thing to do.

That's kind of my thoughts as I'm listening to all of this is, um, we are dealing with complex humans. We ourselves have contexts and backgrounds and thoughts on things. The scripture is not straightforward.

It is that we wouldn't, I wouldn't have a job if it was. We have years of interpretations that are very, very different.

And these are all going to hit so different to different members of a congregation that I'm not being a nihilist here. I'm not saying it means throw the task out the window.

I'm just saying we have to realize that what we're dealing with is an incredibly complicated system of which we are a part. And humans are absolutely capable of understanding. We can talk about the Holy Spirit being absolutely capable of translating our words.

I get that as well. But the task at hand is incredibly difficult and complicated. And so fair play to anyone who goes into this line of work and indeed education as well.

Because you're translating something that's, that's very difficult into something consumable, which is, is not an easy task.

Joshua Noel: 01:16:12

Yeah, well, I, I guess to, to that point, nothing is that simple. Like, like, I'm a terrible podcaster, honestly, because, like, I know we're supposed to just have like good answers. And I'm like, that's just.

It's not because there, there are different things when you interpret the Bible.

Like you can get, I think you can get a really good basic message of the book of Daniel, for example, just reading it, you get a way cooler understanding of Daniel. If you take Dr. Link's course on it though, can you get to learn some of the language stuff? I mean, and not just like Bible, but even like life stuff.

Like people are meaner to each other than you think. And it's like, well, there's also a reason that they're mean.

And a lot of the times people are mean back and that just actually perpetuates the thing. And it's like, how do we break the cycle? And every little thing here, the politics thing. Well, there's a reason that there's this polarization.

There's a reason that the church does have such an issue with Paul. Like there isn't anything simple in any of it.

I guess is part of my problem is when we talk about being relevant and we're like, oh, well, pastors are just pitching this message to me.

I was like, well, that's what you've expected of your pastor to go preach a sermon and if you say you want him to preach that sermon and also relate to 200 people very personally so that he can speak that message directly into your life perfectly, that's not realistic from my perspective. Like, there's no way that one man is going to have that intimate of a relationship with 200 different people. Right?

And so we develop different orders and how the church should be structured and all this stuff. And every time we do that, humans are doing it, and then there's a flaw in it. And then somebody else says, well, this is done wrong.

So they build a whole nother church. And then there's conflict between the two. Like, nothing's simple. Everything's just a whole series of complex systems.

And it starts with what you do have the ability to affect and speak to. And how are you able to approach the Bible for yourself than those around you?

I think too often we get this big picture of everyone's mean, and we got to address that, and there isn't a way to address the big pictures. You actually have to start at the area that you are in. I don't know, I'm just kind of rambling.

Matt Thrift: 01:18:18

No, I think it's solid. I think one of the things that sticks out to me too, in that comment about people are meaner than. Than pastors assume or know or whatever else.

I think part of that, and you guys can all feel free to correct me if you feel differently, but one of my thoughts on that is just kind of the Christian culture that exists in the world we live in, at least in the US can't speak outside of that. We've kind of like, sanitized so much of. Of the way that we do things that I know, for me, I worked at a church a couple of years ago.

Great church, love people there, awesome place. But I worked there.

And one of the things that always was strange to me was that when I first got hired, one of the things I was told was when you're preaching a message, you always want to kind of put off, was what I was told, not what I agree with. Put off whatever has happened to you that day so that you can just be kind of this.

This champion of excitement and kind of like put on a fake face for the three services you're about to preach or whatever else. And I think there is an expectation for a lot of people that their pastor.

I don't think it exists as much as it used to, but I think a lot of people grew up with the expectation that their pastor is just this superhuman link between you and God. And even those of us who don't want to think that. I grew up in a SBC circle as well, and that was kind of hammered into the way that I believed.

So if my pastor had walked on the stage and said, hey, guys, I'm having a rough time, like, things are difficult. People are difficult. Like, that would have been you. You would have gotten crucified for doing that.

And I did, in fact, go on stage one Sunday and I said, hey, guys, like, I got to be totally honest with you. Like, I prepped this message. I'm excited to preach it. Yes. But I have had one of the worst Saturdays into this Sunday that I've ever had in my life.

And I had some people who were very glad to see, especially younger, like Gen Z millennials who are like, yeah, somebody's being authentic. And then I had other people who came up and they were like, you're not supposed to do that. Like, that's not what pastors do. Pastors are the ones.

You're supposed to be the smiling face that gets me through this next week. And I think if we embraced authenticity better as pastors, truthfully, I do think that people would understand.

Like, we've worked, many of us here worked in churches, worked in ministries. I've had pastors throw steel chairs at my head and break windows behind me in office meetings. Like, church is.

Honestly, I worked in a machine shop before that with ex Marines, and they cost less and threw things less and everything else. Like, church can be one of the. One of the worst places to see the worst sides of people, unfortunately.

So, yeah, like, I think we all understand how bad people can get. Like, I think that's not lost on us. But if we pretend that everything has to be peachy all the time and again, everything in balance.

But if we pretend that there's never anything wrong, that's what people are gonna perceive. You look at, like, Christian music is written for, like, a stressed out minivan mom. Like, what's gonna encourage her to get through that moment?

Well, that, that does help her, but it's kind of sanitized down to, like, just this one singular message. And a lot of the other music doesn't get played. Christian movies are.

We might have different opinions around this room, but I can't think of one that I really enjoy myself overall because it's kind of this, like, hope filled, ambiguous message that ends with everything is nice and there's a pretty bow wrapped around it. And at the end of the day, like, the gospel is, yes, there is ultimate hope.

Unequivocally true, while also being there sitting in the messiness and the crap that we deal with on a daily basis. So I think authenticity leading with that would break down some of those barriers that people have built up over time as well.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:10

Yeah, I like that a lot. I'm going to use the Christian media thing to tie us into this final question of the main part.

Because, hey, say what you will about Christian media, we got the chosen TV series now and then the David series, regardless of how correct we think they are, like, production wise, those are good shows, actually subjectively good tv.

And what's interesting about that, to me, especially when we did the series, a lot of people were like, actually, I want to know more about, like, how was Jesus present through all time? Or what did Jesus teach? Or, like. Like, a lot of people were asking, like, I just want to know more about Jesus.

Or the other one that was interesting is like, why does my church do this? Like, I don't. We do communion. Why do we do communion every week? Why do we do this?

Like, they genuinely just don't know why they do the things that they show up and do. They just show up and do them. So, yeah, the Jesus thing and why do we do what we do? That stuff being brought up, I thought was really interesting.

I thought it was a good thing to start kind of getting near the end of this with.

So anybody want to talk, like, as far as that goes, like, people wanting to know more about Jesus, I guess most of us would probably say that's a good thing. But how do you guys respond to some of that?

TJ Blackwell: 01:23:22

I would like to speak.

I do think that there should be, like, most churches should offer a church history, you know, like once a month, just to talk about the history of their own church or denomination, at least, because it's interesting. And I wish I didn't have to go look up the history of my church.

I wish that there was, you know, obviously not every church, especially in my denomination, which is poor, can have, like, a history book available to go, you know, check out or like a little library to go check out. But if, like once a month on a Wednesday, we just did church history, I think that would be really cool. And I think churches should do that.

And I think a lot of churches can do that, just not a lot of Protestant churches. That's what I think.

Leah Robinson: 01:24:11

Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

I actually get my seminary students to do what I call a church map of their own church that they're in, which is basically what's going on around the church? What's the history of the area you're in and then what's going on in the church? What's the history of. Of the people in your church?

Talk to the older folks, talk to, you know, understand the. That your church is a living organism and that this is all really important. And then also gauge what people know and what they don't know.

You know, that that's a good space to do it and just have a chat with them. It could even be, you know, it doesn't have to be a formal interview.

And they actually found it, they would present on this, but they found it pretty rewarding because it actually gave them a real understanding of the actual sort of living organism of the church. So I think it's a great idea.

TJ Blackwell: 01:25:00

Yeah, I think it would help a lot just to boost connectivity with your own church and actually being able to claim ownership and feel like you are a real part of your church. So it could help a lot.

But anyone else have anything to say about, like what, how these people or why these people might think we don't discuss it enough? Who thinks we don't talk about Jesus Christ enough? Is it because we're separating the man from the book?

Pete Link: 01:25:31

Yes. So the Scriptures are how you should understand Jesus? The Scriptures.

Matt Thrift: 01:25:39

Are.

Pete Link: 01:25:40

One of the challenges is an insufficient view of Scripture. We've talked about that. A couple folks have mentioned the nature of Scripture.

And the core question is whether or not Moses and the prophets wrote about Jesus. Now, my answer is a blunt and direct yes. Moses and the prophets wrote to us and they wrote to us about Jesus and everything that's applied in that.

And when people say that you don't talk about Jesus, what they may be experiencing is that we've accepted a false division between theology and practice.

In other words, if you take everything and you immediately wrap it up in three points of application and give people very little time in the text, very little time in understanding how. Because the Old Testament, the way that it talks about Jesus, is not identical to the way it gets expressed in the New Testament itself.

And so spending time showing people through not only sermons, but we mentioned our mentorships and the other things that we do in discipleship at our church, they are fundamentally making sure that all of us are developing our theology of who Jesus is, who God is, who we are, how salvation works, all of those categories must come from the Scriptures. And this is, to me, the fundamental distinction that should mark us as Protestant churches. And it is. Dr.

Beck is an expert in the Reformation in particular. And I think he would argue that the passion for the Scriptures to be proclaimed to the people is what has and should mark us.

And I recognize that this is not easy to do, but that's because people need Jesus rather than just us. And what we're deciding and how we do ministry is what is the nature of how the Gospel itself changes people?

And it's the word of God and the spirit of God colliding in somebody's heart, drawing them to repentance in life. And everybody is struggling with. With something, and the Gospel can meet all those things, but we have to be humble.

I think we've mentioned being genuine. I totally agree with that. But to me, being genuine doesn't say it's all too complex and make myself as an expert.

To be genuine is to say despite the complexity of the world and despite the complexity of the Scriptures, I can come along and tell you what the Scriptures say about God and myself and the cross, and we can pull that together and we can begin to read the Scriptures together as a community connected not only to those in our church, but to those who've been reading the Scriptures for thousands of years. And that those conversations being lived out really do change us in the world. And. And to me, that's. That's always going to come back to the answer.

And. And I think that it is life giving in ways that are miraculous, and they are. And that's because God's present in the midst of it.

Joshua Noel: 01:28:45

Yeah. Yeah, man. Good stuff.

Marie Proctor: 01:28:48

Hey, Josh, can I add something to this as well?

Joshua Noel: 01:28:51

Yeah.

Marie Proctor: 01:28:53

Okay, so is it Dr. Link or Pastor Link? Pastor Link. So, yeah, so just kind of off the heels of that, too.

I think I heard in the beginning that he said he didn't come into, if I'm correct, until. To, you know, into Christ until 31. And so I think.

Pete Link: 01:29:13

I think that is correct.

Marie Proctor: 01:29:15

ents went to this church, the: 1950

I mean, I ate, sleep and breathed church. And so I love that there's a variety of contexts here.

And I'm sure if everybody else spoke, we would see just some variations of how people came to know Christ and how that transitioned.

But taking in context of where people, I don't want to say tap into Jesus, but get a sense of the need for Jesus and the Gospel in their life and how that opens up, it's different for one, just growing up under that. I think that Transition is totally different. And so I hear some of the things that you're saying and I'm like, yes, you know, I agree with that.

And I think you said, and you always come back to the answer. And my answer will probably be something different, but I totally say yes to what you say too.

And so me coming through, it's like I've heard scripture.

I was, you know, under the scripture, I could, you know, speak King James language fluent and but it was just like that, that, that wasn't transformative to me until I hit a hard spot. So the Word was in me. And then the imago dei, the knowing who, who God is, who he's called me to be, and then the scriptures coming back to life.

So I do feel scripture is so very important as well. I just don't know if I would, I would go and put like, I don't know the order.

Like, I think that's the mystery of what is inside of me, of I'm not sure, you know, depending on the circumstance. I don't think there's like a one size fits all for me. Today it may be absolutely scripture, tomorrow it might be, you know, something else.

But I love how you bring that into the table too. That, that, nope, you have, you, you've mapped this out and this is, this is the go to, this is what works for me.

And I'm still figuring, I, I mean, I'm as an adult, a 45 year old woman still wrestling with, you know, the mystery of God. And just, you know, the scriptures is being opened up in different contexts and you know, just, you're Talking about Genesis 3, Genesis 11.

I just read those passages, you know, over the last couple of weeks. I'm just like, yes, you know, I get that too.

And there's this whole other side of emotional, healthy spirituality, the mental health, all of those components, the whole, the whole self to it. Leah, I think you said the practical theology. I'm so interested in that terminology. I mean, I'm just like looking around the circle here too.

Keenan, I think if I'm pronouncing your name right, like you're even coming into the mental health world of saying, how can we, how can we really develop this whole self in our people that are sitting in our congregation? And I'm just like, wow, you know, the internal family systems through the, you know, mental health field is, has so much more to offer as well.

And so all of that combined, I'm just like, man, I'd love to sit on a team with all of you. You Know, with all of the things that you bring, I just think it would be fantastic. So thank. Thank you for. Yeah. All that you have shared.

Pete Link: 01:32:48

Well, that's very kind. I am much, much older than 31, and I did grow up going to church. And yes, it was a total calamity that brought me.

Total calamity brought on by myself that eventually led to the Lord, led me to the Lord when I.

When I recognized that in my mother's death that I had devoted 15 years to chasing a dream that was utterly meaningless when I should have been ministering to her. So I think this is the point is, is that what is constant and permanent has to shape what is applicable. Passing. Right.

So truth can and must invade and perpetuate every part of our lives. And that truth comes from God. He is the Word.

Matt Thrift: 01:33:34

Right?

Pete Link: 01:33:35

Christ is the Word. And. And here's the thing. That Word is so powerful that all these passing moments are by now nature important. Passing does not mean unimportant.

Passing means that they have to be grounded in what comes from Christ and goes back to Christ. In other words, what we're leading people to do is to worship Christ. Worship is the right response to the right revelation of who God is.

And that is what takes somebody who was a totally selfish jerk in ways I can barely begin to explain to you and transform him. Not just a person with improved behavior, but a person who can now see that God is with us and good to us in a way I could never see before.

And it's God's Word and God's Spirit that transforms anyone. And I mean, you can see it in Augustine's Confessions. You can see it if you go back in Paul's own story.

All of us are in great need of the Messiah that Moses, the prophets, and the apostles promise us and give us in Jesus.

Joshua Noel: 01:34:34

I know a few of us. I'm seeing faces that, like, we want to respond to different things or like we're. We're still kind of.

Kind of biting at the bit on some things, but we are over time. And I have to go, so. But wrapping this up before TJ does his bit, you know, we usually ask for a practical action, tangible thing, kind of whatever.

But I felt like this whole thing was sort of a practical action. Like talking about, like, how can this stuff be practical? How can it be relevant? Talked about, like how the world.

We just need to acknowledge sometimes that it is complex. There isn't a simple answer all the time, or seeing how we need to be more genuine with people, relational.

I think talking about the Bible is important. You know, I Definitely agree with Dr. Link on some of that. And of course, we got some.

Some things that we probably could push each other on some of the answers and stuff like give it do. But I'm going to throw this to Dr.

Beck to give him a warning if we take some of this stuff serious, like the things that people are concerned about and have these genuine conversations that you spoke of earlier and realize the complexity of things. Dr. Beck, what. What do you think we could see change in the world or in our churches as we take some of this stuff maybe a little bit more seriously?

Peter Beck: 01:35:48

I mean, I think if we would take the thing seriously, draw the connections back to truth and back to Christ, showing people ultimately in the end that what we proclaim does make a difference, that our, you know, our orthodoxy does in fact, produce orthopraxy.

And in doing so, not only are we recognizing the imago DEI and all of those around us, but we're also fulfilling the second greatest commandment, which of course is to love our neighbors like our ourselves. And in doing so, as Luther and Calvin both said, that's when we become most like God.

And so if the goal of this life experience is godlikeness, that we might become more like Christ, who is the perfect image, the invisible God, to prepare us for eternity.

The way we begin doing that now is begin doing what Christ did when he was here, which is loving our neighbors, loving them enough to treat them and care for them well, but also loving them enough to tell them the truth with grace and kindness also.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:46

Yeah, yeah. So before TJ does his bit, this is only break in a case of emergency.

Does anyone have something that they absolutely must say or address or they're not going to feel good about themselves later? Is that just giving that opportunity, given how many people are here? Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 01:37:03

All right, so before we wrap up, we do just ask everyone to. To share a moment where they saw God recently. We call this our God moment Creative.

I know I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us time to think of our God moment for the week. And I think some of us are going to have plenty of time to do it. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us?

Joshua Noel: 01:37:25

Yeah, every moment's God moment, right? No, I just finished finals for my first full semester for my master's program. So my God moment is I survived.

And I am going to get to go to the beach this weekend and rest. Or if you want to spiritualize it, rest in the Lord. But, like, realistically, probably A book written by Victor Hugo.

TJ Blackwell: 01:37:48

Good book. Yeah. So I'll go next. My, for me, God moment is, as you all know, because we're all American.

Mother's Day just happened and I got to see, you know, not only my mom, but my dad's mom and my mom's mom. And it's just nice, you know, to get all these people together and spend time while we have them and the time.

It was really nice to see the whole family. It really does a lot of good to spend time with your family, I think. So I was super grateful for that.

And I'm just going to go in like clockwise order for me from here. So, Dr. Beck, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Peter Beck: 01:38:32

Yeah, last week I spent a week in the mountains at our cabin up in the Smokies, and my brother in law came down with me. And he fits a lot of your all's descriptions. Grew up in the church. Ish walked away is lukewarm about it.

And throughout the week, you know, we don't argue, we don't talk politics, and we don't get into conspiracy theories and whatnot, but just, you know, try to live out, you know, what I believe in front of him and let him be true to himself and not feel like he has to have, you know, perfect manners with me. And we went to dinner with a friend of mine who happened to be in town also, and the friend asked me to pray for dinner.

And I noticed starting from that meal forward, every time we sat down for a meal, rather than jumping into the food, my brother in law stopped and prayed for his food for himself before he started.

And so the God moment here may just be the seeds of, you know, there is truly redeeming value in what we proclaim, not just what we grew up and heard.

TJ Blackwell: 01:39:25

All right, I like that. Dr. Leah, do you have a God moment for us?

Leah Robinson: 01:39:30

Of course. So my new book is on the evils of conversion therapy, especially in the southeast.

And so I actually interviewed someone who had survived, thank goodness, conversion therapy and this, this week.

And I've done a lot of ethnography in my research history, but this one hit because this guy was from Georgia, like I'm from, and he was just telling me about all the stuff that they sort of said to him in these moments and how he came very close to losing his life at his own hand. And now he is back in the church, has a loving partner, they're married and very happy and survived and thrived, I will say.

But just hearing his story and just how he was able to come back after all that had been said to him, to me was such a God moment because everything was pitted against the fact that he would walk away, and rightfully so, never come back. And he did, and he was alive to tell me about it. And so that, to me, was, was deeply emotional. We both had a good, good cry over it. So.

TJ Blackwell: 01:40:57

Yeah, that's awesome. All right. And, Marie, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Marie Proctor: 01:41:00

I do. Yesterday I was sitting in my quiet time, and the scripture came that I read.

It was John 7 and 38, and it says, out of your heart shall flow rivers of living water.

And that out of everything that just spoke to me, and I just went and, you know, looked up like living waters and, you know, shall flow and all those things. Went to work, came back, talked about it some more, and went on a walk with my daughter.

And just from all the rain, usually you don't hear streams flowing around here. And these were random.

Like, as we walked, I could hear rushing water, and I just paused and I would, I took like, six, a couple short videos, and there was like, three different places along our, Our, our walk that I, I, I heard the water first, and then I looked a little closer and had to look through the trees just to see them. And it just, just a huge God moment. It just blessed my soul to know that even this verse and just what? Just God speaks through nature.

And that was just one of those connection points for me.

TJ Blackwell: 01:41:58

Awesome. And Kino, do you have God moment for us?

Keno Cannady: 01:42:03

Yes. So this past Sunday, made an announcement that we're going to do baptisms.

And I had 10 individuals approach me to wanting to be baptized, which is exciting. You know, we're Methodist, so we have three different modes, but I was born and raised Baptist, so I said, we're going to, we're going to dunk you.

So I have to ask my, my trustees to get a pool, and we're going to do baptisms next month. And I'm excited.

TJ Blackwell: 01:42:28

Oh, yeah? Yeah. I do feel like it's a disservice to any church that doesn't have, like, the baptism tank up there behind the pulpit.

I know only Baptist churches have that, but I love that. That's so funny to me. You look behind the pastor, there's just a secret pool back there. That's awesome.

Leah Robinson: 01:42:45

It's a really precarious thing to do. Them we had to go through in my seminary, like, the whole, like, bending of the legs. So you didn't.

Because you don't want to drown while you baptize someone. It's not good.

TJ Blackwell: 01:42:56

It's not a good look, but I think that is awesome architecture. So, Pastor Matt, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Matt Thrift: 01:43:05

Of course, yeah. I got a couple of them, but I'll try to limit it down. I was going to say we're.

We're Mennonite brethren over at our church, and nobody knows what that is, but we're Anabaptist, so we've still got a baptismal back there, too. But with that being said, I've almost tore somebody's ACL before, so, yeah, you got to be careful with how you do that God moment.

Glad some of y' all. Y' all enjoyed that. No God moment. I think one big one is we're. We're getting to go back out to visit our friends in Utah.

I worked out there for five years at a church, and. And still some of our closest friends are out there. And so we're excited to go back and visit. And, you know, when you leave, we left on good terms.

I mean, I love everybody out there, but when you leave a church, you never know if the opportunity to come back to that particular church is still going to be an open door in one way, form or fashion. And even though it was all great, I still wasn't sure.

And then I was talking with the pastor out there, and he said, hey, well, while you're in town, would you want to preach? And I was like, absolutely, yeah, that'd be awesome.

So I get to go back and see our friends and family out there and actually get to share the message at what used to be two services, and now they've got three. And I forgot I signed up to preach three services, so do pray for me for that. But with that being said, excited to be out there again.

So that was a big one.

TJ Blackwell: 01:44:24

That's awesome. And Dr. Link, do you have a God moment for us?

Pete Link: 01:44:29

Yeah, my God moment is a bit humbling. So I have five children. One of my children hit kind of a wall the past two weeks.

And in my inability to actually fix the situation, it was great because God was making very clear to me my own idols. And so the God moment was that the fatherhood of God was expressed in how he's taking care of my son despite me, not because of me.

And so that is sufficient, and that is good, and he's going to thrive. I'm not worried about him in that regard, but it was. What I love are the God moments where my own idolatry draws me to the repentance and where.

Where faith can finally be unveiled in a part of my life that maybe was a bit too closed off to that.

TJ Blackwell: 01:45:21

All right. Yeah. It's awesome. So thank you all so much for giving us so much of your time. This is the longest whole church episode ever.

If you're listening and you listening now. Wow. And thank you. Please consider sharing the episode with a friend and enemy. Share with your cousins, and check out the merch to support the show.

You've already done so much, you know, an hour and a half of your time. What's. What's another, like, 10 bucks on top of that? You know, buy the cisgeek shirt by the whole church shirt. They're good shirts.

Joshua Noel: 01:45:51

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:45:51

Josh is wearing one right now. It's super comfy.

Joshua Noel: 01:45:54

It is comfy. Yeah. And if somehow you're still not tired of podcasts, listen to Theology on the rocks, the Dr. Lee Robinson.

I also, we have other shows in our network if you. If you want to check some of those out. I'm about to be on an episode of Kung Fu Pizza Party talking about the Jackie Chan and Karate Kid movie.

That's gonna be a lot of fun.

Pete Link: 01:46:11

I'm gonna.

TJ Blackwell: 01:46:11

I'm gonna be on that same show of talking about Karate Kid 3. So.

Joshua Noel: 01:46:15

Nice.

Leah Robinson: 01:46:16

Speaking of Josh Patterson was the one that was texting me, and he says to tell Matt and Josh and TJ High. So you can blame him for. You can blame him for the dings.

Joshua Noel: 01:46:25

Yeah. Thanks, Josh. He is. Yeah. His fault for. For three of us being here or maybe four. I don't know. He's introduced me a lot of people. Yeah.

So listen to him, too.

TJ Blackwell: 01:46:37

No. So we hope you enjoyed the show.

Next week, we're going to be having Josh Patterson and Eric Kincaid, the founder of the Facebook group Christian Podcasters, to discuss the visceral reaction other Christians had to a podcast JP had he shared in the group. After that, Joshua is going to be interviewing Pastor Parker about the messianic Jewish temple that he leads in Charlotte, North Carolina.

I was absent. Then we were going to have on Kendall Vanderslae to discuss her book, Bake and Pray, and some of the recipes we hired or tried from the book.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show. Maybe.

Pete Link: 01:47:07

What?

Joshua Noel: 01:47:07

Yeah, he doesn't know about it. So there's always that problem.

TJ Blackwell: 01:47:11

And we do.

Joshua Noel: 01:47:11

Will always persist. It'll never end.

TJ Blackwell: 01:47:14

We do want to acknowledge Pope Francis's passing. Our plan for the end of the season two was always to have the Pope on. And currently the Pope now speaks English. So this is a big opportunity for us.

May Pope Francis rest in peace, but there are silver linings.