Food, Faith, and Fellowship: Insights from 'Grub & Grace'

Joshua Noel: 00:00:24

Deuteronomy, chapter 8, verses 7 through 10. For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land. A land of streams, of water, of fountains and springs flowing out in valleys and hills.

A land of wheat and barley, of vines, fig trees and pomegranates. A land of olive oil and honey. A land where you will eat without shortage, in which you will not lack anything.

A land whose stones are iron and of whose hills you can dig copper. When you have eaten and are satisfied, you shall bless the Lord your God for the good land which he has given you.

In this pericope scripture, it's talking to the Israelites about the land they were promised, the physical land that they were about to walk into. A lot of times in our New Testament scriptures, we look back to the Old Testament promises of an even greater promise to come. It's interesting.

In the Christian context, we always want to think about heaven and earth after we die, but a lot of those promises are for us now in Christ. Mark Flower. This verse talks a lot about food. What part do you think food plays in the promises we have in God even today?

Mark Flower: 00:01:34

I think just the thankfulness that we all have for the food that we have. I mean, look at this. These verses right here.

And although it doesn't say outright, you know, we thank you for this food of barley and vines and fig trees, but I think there is an underlying sense of things that it's God that provides. And we trust in God so that we are thankful that this food is provided from our Creator, our Redeemer, our one that we look towards.

And I think there's something so beautiful that we have adopted into our own lives and our own traditions today in this modern world. And it's why we say thanks at a dinner table. It's why we say prayers and give that thanks and gratitude towards God. So I think that's.

That's one of the big things with food that we. We can attribute towards God.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:26

Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the whole Church podcast. I got a surprise bonus for you. It's gonna be quick, like 15, 20 minute thing.

Chill. I know we said we're gonna have a week off, but, you know, we never really do a week off. It's not what we do here. We're the whole church.

We work hard. We don't. I don't even edit these videos. It's fine. But I'm not here with the reason for podcasts.

You know, TJ Tiberious one, the pod Father, the God of all pods. Insert other really exaggerated things about the lore of TJ here, but I am here with, with the the one who is breaking bread for us all.

On his podcast Grubbing Grace, we have the one and only host, Mark Flower. Mark, how's it going, man?

Mark Flower: 00:03:14

It's going pretty good. Thanks for having me on the show, man.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:17

I'm excited for this. We've been doing a couple episodes over there on Grubbing Grace.

I got to guest with you talking about Christian Taoism and then food in video games, which turned out to be a way longer episode than we expected. But man, we've been having fun talking about food and faith and games and I think we touched on Captain America a little bit.

You had Will on there talking about Captain America more, but it's fine. It's not like he has a shield in his office, but it's cool.

Mark Flower: 00:03:43

I'm always up for another Captain America talk, so if you want too, we can totally plan another one too.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:47

Yeah, let's do it now. No, I'm just kidding. I'm excited for this. We're just going to kind of introduce you guys to what is Grubbing Grace.

Talk about it because it's a show I really love and I'm passionate about.

So I want to force my listeners to hear Mark and then be like, man, I want to hear more than have to go hit subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. Yeah, this is just blatant manipulation, but it was going to be a fun one.

I don't usually do TJ's parts, but I know you're supposed to go to like YouTube or something and check out our merch store, that kind of stuff Hit like subscribe. Etc. Check out other shows in the podcast network. The Nozzle Podcast Network. Brandon Knight, Kung Fu Pizza Party.

Mark's been on his show recently as well.

Mark Flower: 00:04:28

Brandon, awesome pizza toppings with. With kung fu films and kung fu actors.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:33

God, it was great. Yeah, it inspired some other ideas for me and I just. I have unlimited ideas for unfortunate reasons.

I've also been doing some stuff, some more unique stuff with Dummy for theology. We might even be renaming that show to be Living Water. I'm thinking about it. We'll see. So guys, check that out.

Let me know what you think about the name change if I do it. And then what's another one? Systematic Ecology recently had Brandon I over on it to talk about Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee.

So if you want more Kung Fu, we'll just. We're eating up the Kung Fu content right now in the food content. You know, so it's gonna be fun.

You guys know I have a holy spiritual practice we do for everything over here, Even bonus episodes, because I can't help it. It's, of course, silliness. We can't have church unity without a little bit of silliness. I don't know if you know that. Yeah, yeah, it's holy.

But, Mark, today's silly question that I'm thinking of as I speak. So I'm making this a really long sentence. I think I got it. If you had to guess which sci fi world has the absolute worst food, what's it.

What's it probably gonna be?

Mark Flower: 00:05:46

Oh, boy. I can tell you the one that's absolutely not gonna fall in this category is Star Trek. They're gonna have the best food.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:52

I was thinking the same thing because, like, they're like, they're all about culture.

Mark Flower: 00:05:57

Oh, boy. I mean, Star Wars, I feel like, is always up there. You got this, that blue milk. Nobody knows what the blue milk is.

People seem to like it in the world.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:06

But have you had the blue milk in Galaxy's Edge?

Mark Flower: 00:06:10

No, I haven't.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:11

It's so good, especially with rum. But I think that about most things. I like rum and things.

Mark Flower: 00:06:17

Oh, boy. I'm blanking on a lot of other sci fi type of things. I think anything in, like, kind of based on a reality.

So not non Star wars, non Star Trek, all that kind of stuff, but more like, like Event Horizon or something like that where it's, you know, based in like, Alien or something like that where it's, you know, a little bit more kind of level at home. I think anything space, like, you know, the space foods, I think. I think would be probably on the lower end. I don't know.

What do you think would be a good, good sci fi?

Joshua Noel: 00:06:46

This can be weird because I think it's technically our universe, but I think this will probably have both the best and Worst Foods. C.S. lewis's space trilogy, because you have planets that never fell so that there's like, with completely without sin. They're just doing life great.

And I bet those planets probably have some killer food options, like great cuisine.

And then you have foods that are like planets that are like, even worse than ours somehow that are ruled by angels that are like, I don't know, I guess worse than Lucifer. I'm unsure. I bet one of those planets have awful food and one of those planets have the best food.

So I'm thinking that's probably just the perfect answer.

Mark Flower: 00:07:22

You know, I think maybe even a good Place and bear with me on this.

So I don't think most people would consider it a sci fi, but if you think it is very, you know, they have these different realms of this afterlife that, you know, takes place in the whole show.

And if you think, like, maybe not the current timeline within the show, but there might be another world where in order to torment the people, they tell them that the food, food is wonderful, but it could be really bad.

And in doing so, they're trying to, like, manipulate and gaslight them into thinking that they're actually having really good food when it actually they're really tormenting them with really bad food.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:59

Or it could be another, like, Eleanor situation where it's like, oh, they mistook you and they think you're accidentally in the Good Place, but it's really the Bad Place.

And you're, like, trying to pretend like you're like, whatever they think you are, and they tell you you're a great chef, and then all your food always turns out awful, but you have to eat it and act like it's good. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. You know, I like to do shop talk in the little episodes because that's not what you're supposed to do.

But we're gonna be doing a Good Place episode on systematic ecology. I think next month. You should totally join us for that. It's gonna be fun.

Mark Flower: 00:08:29

Let me know.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:30

I'm trying to get Aaron Simmons to join us too, but I'll get back on that. Cool. For now, Mark. So one of the things we have found that helps with church unity is just kind of hearing one another's story.

So before we get into, like, what your podcast is, would you kind of just break down, like, what's your faith tradition? What's, like, what did you grow up in? And just kind of where you find yourself with the church now.

And maybe if you could throw in how you started growing grace, we'll just rant.

Mark Flower: 00:08:55

Okay. Where I stand right now is I've got, like, a hodgepodge of just ideas in my head, and I'm still trying to figure out, like, where I stand in belief.

And belief I'm still very situated in, you know, Jesus has died for our sins and, you know, the traditional sense of that.

But as far as, like, other faith traditions and, you know, church life and all that kind of stuff, and just the ideas that the traditional Christian belief should be in the world, you know, what people expect, I'm still working through a lot of that and figuring out where I stand on some of these stances and topics and that sort of thing. I grew up in a very traditional home. I wouldn't say it was, it was anything like, you know, extreme ideas.

It was just kind of, you know, following what, what, you know, the church, the general church kind of, you know, tells us to live and, and they, you know, examining the Bible and whatnot. So I grew up in that sort of environment.

I started to kind of question things when I, when I got to college, I went to a very conservative Christian university. And so I was around a plethora of people that were.

That mindset, but there were also a number of people that were questioning things and really challenging the status quo of Christendom. And so I think that kind of allowed me to process things.

But even still, at that point, I was just kind of blase, just kind of, you know, going about life and not really giving it too much thought of that. I was, you know, enjoying life, enjoying college, join friendships and that sort of thing.

I think it was really, until a few years after I got out of college and especially during COVID too, where just really like, you know, things just shook for me and I, I came across one of those social, social media pages, the, the preachers and sneakers. I don't know if you're familiar with that one.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Flower: 00:10:53

It basically highlights all these megachurch pastors and their opulent wealth that they, that they put on full display, their, their outward piety that they show.

And it would show, you know, the, the price tag for, for their particular shoes or jeans or, you know, things that, that they, they have that they're wearing during their sermons. And it really just kind of shook me and that, that Julie Roy's to the New Evangelicals to.

And then one, one of my friends, April Ajoy, I went to, I went to school with her and it opened the door to her podcast at the Evangelical Ish at the time. But since she's left and joined the New Evangelicals. But it opened up the door to all these people. And then, and then I went to Theology Beer Camp.

That's when I, when I, I think it was the week before Theology Beer Camp. I started posting my episodes for Grub and Grace, but I didn't start creating the content.

I think I started creating about two year and a half before that time, before this last fall. But I was kind of going about it.

The idea of, I wanted to focus on food in the Bible, eating food, harvesting food, all sorts of food, just food ideas in the Bible. And so it would be like more of a deep dive. So I got my guests talked about that, actually recorded a bunch of episodes.

And those are actually a lot of my earlier episodes are those episodes that I created a year, year and a half before I even started releasing anything.

And then since Theology Beer Camp, you know, getting into this community of people that were also questioning things and accepting you for where you were in your faith journey, no matter what that looked like, it just.

It kind of allowed me to think freely and allow myself to kind of be myself on the podcast and start creating content that I wanted to create as opposed to what I felt like needed to create. So that's kind of where it sits right now. And so we've. We've had conversations of Christian nationalism. You know, is it good for society?

We've had talks about religious harm from the church, and I had Mike Mayashiro on there, and he's a. He's. He used to be in the church, and he got ousted because they thought he was gay at the time. He was. He's always gay.

And he now advocates for religious harm that has been done by the church, and he holds safe spaces for that. So I have all these conversations that are opened up to a lot more broad topics as opposed to just deep diving into the Bible.

So that's kind of where everything stands right now. For grubbing Grace.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:33

Yeah. One thing I've loved just talking to you is kind of like you're not fully liberal or conservative. You're very nuanced on you thinking through stuff.

Just like a lot of us where we're not completely sure where we are, but we have ideas on different things and we're kind of wrestling with a lot of these ideas.

I'm doing a couple comments on stuff because there was a report on Tim Winnaker when it comes to, like, the new evangelicals that had to do with, like, abuse, but not like sexual abuse or anything like that. I think it's more just kind of behavioral issues.

I'm not 100% sure on the details, so I'm just throwing that out there, like, because I don't know everything. I don't want to say that I back the new evangelicals because I just don't know everything. So I'm not saying I don't back them either.

Mark Flower: 00:14:13

But, I mean, I don't know fully there, but from my understanding, it was more of a dispute between a freelance worker that he had hired to do some work behind the scenes for the show, and he had pushed this worker a little bit too hard, demanding things and it caused some disputes and essentially just kind of spiraled a little bit more out of control. And that's my understanding of it. He has since come out with an episode talking about this and that.

There's a report that you can find, and it's fully available and transparent on, I think, their website. You can get the link through there.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:50

He said it was somewhere. I can't find it anywhere, though. That's the thing.

Mark Flower: 00:14:53

Okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:53

Yeah. I'm sure you don't know. I got to do more research, but.

Mark Flower: 00:14:56

Yeah, contact or something@newevangeloals.com but I don't.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:00

Want the episode to become about that. Just Mark seems to know more about it than I do. Maybe we'll drop some links in here.

I just wanted to say I didn't know everything, so I didn't want to be like, hey, I'm fully on board. I'm certainly not against them. I know what I've heard of April on different stuff. I think she's amazing.

So if you can get me in contact, I'd love to have her on the show. She's cool, but, yeah, I'd still love.

Mark Flower: 00:15:20

To have her on my show, too. I haven't reached out yet about having her on my show, but, yeah, I would love to. I think it'd be great, too.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:25

I do want to plug somebody. I know enough about that. I'm more comfortable plugging, especially if you're on Instagram.

I don't know if he has a podcast, but Brian Wrecker, he does a lot of stuff. Just kind of showing what's going on in the church and kind of giving a really nuanced progress. Nuanced progressive perspective. Yeah.

And just kind of how God's love is at work in the church today and showing some of the faults and some of the evangelical stuff. We're a church unity podcast, you know, we're not, like, against church unity.

For me, this Easter, one of the most challenging things is this ancient proverb that I heard in a Canaan song that's just stuck in my head of, it's better to light a candle than to curse the dark.

And I'm like, man, what does that look like in today's world when the ones who are calling themselves a light, I think are the ones that's casting shadows a lot of the time. But, hey, we'll save that for your next episode. When people go over there and listen to Christian nationalism, they want to hear from you.

They'll go over there, they'll hear it all. Or check out Brian Wrecker to do both of those things. He's great. More also, like, your T shirt, I think, says a lot too.

You know, you're a red letter Christian, not a red hat Christian. I love that. But since we're here to Talk about grubbing Grace 3, I wanted you to talk about.

I wanted you to tell us a little bit about the episode you had Will Rose on, because our. Our followers are familiar with him. Some of the episodes that me and you did together.

And then if you could just pick like one episode that isn't one of those three, because, you know, I don't want to feel like you have to pick those or feel bad when you don't pick those. That's just like an episode that stands out to you. That's really, for you, exemplifies what the show's about.

You just plug one episode, what that would be. You want to walk through those.

Mark Flower: 00:16:55

Well, let's talk about Will first. So, yeah, I did an episode talking about Captain America. Obviously, we mentioned that prior here, but yeah, we had him on.

We talked about the new Captain America film that came out this year, the Brave New World.

And we initially started talking about the film, and then we got very into politics and how it relates to the world and all the things that kind of go along with that. And I got some good feedback from it. I got some people saying, you know, you brought up some really good points on a lot of that.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:23

The only thing is, y' all did not like the movie enough. That's the only problem.

Mark Flower: 00:17:27

Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:28

But y' all can fix that. Fix your opinion.

Mark Flower: 00:17:30

There were.

There was good things and bad things about the film, and I think there were aspects of it that I'm really glad they did, and there was aspects that they didn't. You listen to the whole.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:38

So we can do that later. Also, for those who are wondering, I am known as Josh with a bad opinion. So I just.

Mark Flower: 00:17:42

Peace. And then, of course, Joshua, we had you on. We just recorded one right before we were doing this. And so that'll come out at a later time.

It usually takes about a month or so to. To get episodes out, usually with my schedule and whatnot. But we have one out right now on the, on the show. And we talk about Christian Taoism and.

Or Taoism, Christian Christianity, however you say that. But we talk about how Christianity and Taoism can, you know, coexist in a.

In a, you know, beautiful union with each other without interfering with the core beliefs or of the thing. And Taoism, you know, of Course, as you follow Joshua, you'll know that it isn't actually a religion.

It's more of a, like, spiritual beliefs and spiritual practice. So, yeah, we talk about. Talk about all that, and we even made some. Some dishes and some food and had a good time with that.

So it was a lot of fun with that. As far as a show that really encapsulates the Grub and Grace show, I think my Christian Nationalism episode has the most views on it.

The one show that people talk about the most. Like, if people say, you know, I listened to your show and I really like this episode. It was the one with Nerdy Dan about AI and pop culture.

Yeah, I think that's the one that I get the most comments on of, like, this was a fun episode.

Like, I really love, and I like the idea of AI People are just interested in AI, so of course they were drawn to that episode, but I get a lot of comments on that, one, so. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:17

Yeah. Awesome. Awesome.

Well, man, before we do the stuff we usually do to wrap up and everything, is there any one thing that you think maybe we didn't ask about that people would like to know about you, your show, or anything that. Do we miss anything?

Mark Flower: 00:19:32

No. I mean, I try to open a space for having dialogue, and I try to practice active listening. Not perfect at it, but I'm. I'm trying.

I'm trying to allow my mind open to, you know, hear ideas and to really listen to people and. And to explore all these different, you know, ideas and possibilities that people bring up, as opposed to being just stuck in. In the gutter.

Not stuck in the gutter, stuck in a rut and in just, like, one way of thinking about things. And the world is not black and white. It's. It's multiple shades of gray as well as a full rainbow of colors.

So I think it's beautiful to explore the world as it is before us.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:22

Hopefully our listeners are aware that one of the big things for the network that we're a part of, Onaza podcast network, the whole church is a part of, is we don't want to be giving these simple answers and these little quick little devotions. It's like. Like there are other good shows for those things. But we're trying to ask the big questions.

Whether it be, like, the big questions of our fandom of, like, is Superman stronger than the war? Because, like, you know, that's a big question for some people. There are implications to that.

Or whether it's the big question of, like, can we have church unity with Christian nationalists, or can we have church unity with people who disagree on LGBTQ stuff?

You know, we try to ask big questions on all of our shows, and that's something that's important to me, is when someone's willing to ask the big questions. For me, that's more important than whether or not you're getting a good answer or a correct answer.

You know, like, I'd rather have a good question that I can leave with. And that's something I think Grubbing Grace does really well.

So I really want to recommend all of our listeners, especially if you like our network, I think you'll love the Grubbing Grace show. So go check them out. And then one thing we always do, we always ask for if anybody has a God moment. And TJ makes me go first. Always.

I mean, it's easy. We just had Easter, right? So I think I already gave mine away. It's just that proverb I heard in the Canaan Song.

And then, like, I went to my first Easter vigil this year where, like, you started the campfire, and we're lighting more and more lights as the service progresses, going from outside to the foyer to, you know, the sanctuary, and just kind of seeing the light and then thinking, like, you know, it's not about cursing the dark. It's not about, like, hey, Donald Trump is evil.

I think it's important that we say stuff like that, that we are honest calling evil evil, but cursing the dark, being like, man, I hate this. That doesn't do anything other than create more darkness.

And then thinking about, what does it mean to be a light in the dark, that's a little bit harder. So I guess mine's a challenge, and that's where I'm at. Mark, do you have any God moments you've had recently?

Mark Flower: 00:22:12

I feel like I'm always having God moments. I always come into Revelations and Revelations in the sense of uncovering information and learning.

And I think through all these topics I talk about with all my guests, I think I'm constantly finding information that just really strikes me and speaks to me. The Sunday before Easter, at our house of worship, at the very end of the service, they did this special choir type of moment.

So the choir is typically in their choir areas, but this time, they brought all the choir people into the aisles around the church, and they started singing a song that basically was asking the question, where were you when Jesus was up on the cross? And the way they did it, it wasn't that everybody was singing.

It was that, like, one person was Singing at a time and then another person on the opposite side of the sanctuary. And then. And of course, you know that. You know the size of the sanctuary from theology beer camp. It's that church.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:19

Yeah. Oh, wow.

Mark Flower: 00:23:21

And so the size of it and all the people around in the aisles, and people are like, you know, one at a time are singing these. These verses and asking the question, like, where were you? And there was just something so solemn about it, and it was so powerful and moving.

It kind of brought me to tears. And I'm thinking about. I'm like, man, just rethinking about. This is one of those powerful moments. And they just had.

After they were done, they had everyone leave in silence. And it was one of those. Those just kind of. It just moved me a lot. So I think that was probably my most recent God moment that I had.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:54

Yeah. Yeah, man. It's crazy. Where I had the Easter vigil.

I went to Pastor Will's church, and, you know, that's where they had a theology boot camp, like, two or three years ago, too. So we both went to a theology beer camp church.

Mark Flower: 00:24:07

There you go.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:07

For Easter. Yeah. One of the songs they did that was cool.

I think it's the first time I ever heard it is like, you know, it's liturgical, so it's like a really short little chorus, basically. But they were singing about different stuff happening in the Bible or, like, different stuff that we might face.

And then, like, the congregation would go, God's a gonna trouble the waters.

And it sounds a lot like smoke on the water to me for some reason, but it was just cool because, you know, sometimes I tend to think of, like, what can I do? How am I being God in the world?

And it's kind of fun to kind of just think of, like, even though this stuff is happening, God's gonna trouble the waters. And I might not know what that looks like. And I don't know. That to me, gave me hope, because right now I'm like, I can't see anything that I can do.

And to remember that sometimes it isn't just about what I can do. So, anyway, yeah, we could go on forever. I love talking to Mark. He's a great guy. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode.

If you did share it with a friend, enemy, cousin, one of those, especially your cousins, you know, I don't know what other things TJ says. I always struggle with this part, but if you don't mind, maybe, like, rate and review the show on a podcast on.

Yeah, Podchaser is cool, but I was trying to say Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can leave a comment on there now too. So let us know what you think and make sure you check out Mark Show Grubbing Grace.

Subscribe over there as well. I think it's a wonderful show. Of course, check out other shows in our network. We always have to plug them. So the homily with Pastor Will.

We're gonna try and get that Easter homily up soon. Check out Let Nothing Movie with Chris Nashley. You and bit more conservative take on the Bible.

Or if you want a more progressive take on the Bible, the Bible After Hours has a good one coming up, I hear. Or that probably just happened. I don't know. Recording times are weird. But you know, check all those shows out. It's a fun time.

You coming up soon on our show we're going to be having I'm going to try to actually get Brecker on, you know, Brian Wrecker on the show because he's I think he's written a book recently that I want to people to check out on. Hell, Shayna Watson, she's been on our show before. She spent a year at the Trinity Anglican Church International church in Washington, D.C.

we're gonna try to have her back on. We have a big roundtable coming up talking about that job fair series that we did. We have a lot of fun stuff in the works. Hope you all check it out.

And of course go over to Grubbing Grace. Check out some of the fun stuff he mentioned he has coming up as well as we have a video game and food conversation coming that I'm a part of.

So make sure you you don't miss that. And I hope you guys did enjoy the show.

Mark Flower: 00:26:29

Oh, what's.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:29

Oh yeah. How do we finish this? Something about Francis Chan being the end of season one. That's how it works.

You guys have to tell them because we're never gonna do it. We are way too lazy for that. You guys reach his people, our people reach him. But you're our people, so good luck.