bonus
Unveiling 'Earthbound': A Dialogue on Faith and Ecology
The focal point of this bonus episode lies in a profound dialogue between Joshua Noel and Grace Ji-Sun Kim, centering on her recently published work, "Earthbound: God at the Intersection of Climate and Justice." In this enlightening discourse, Kim articulates the critical relationship between ecological concerns and the imperative for social justice, emphasizing the urgency with which we must engage in addressing climate change. She elucidates the theological underpinnings that compel individuals of faith to advocate for the sustainability of our planet, framing environmental stewardship as a divine calling rather than a mere option. The conversation further delves into the implications of climate injustice, urging listeners to recognize their role in the collective responsibility to protect God's creation. Through this exploration, we are invited to reflect on our personal and communal actions in the face of pressing environmental challenges.
A recent episode of The Whole Church Podcast features a profound discourse between Joshua Noel and Grace Ji-Sun Kim, centering around her latest publication, "Earthbound: God at the Intersection of Climate and Justice (Ecology and Justice)". This illumination of environmental consciousness interlaces theology and ecological stewardship, offering insights into the relationship between faith and the urgent realities of climate justice. Kim elucidates the necessity of engaging with environmental issues from a theological perspective, emphasizing that caring for creation is an integral aspect of one’s faith. The dialogue navigates through various themes, such as the human impact on climate change, the theological implications of ecological destruction, and the moral imperative of justice for marginalized communities disproportionately affected by environmental degradation. This episode serves as both an intellectual exploration and a call to action, urging listeners to reflect on their roles as caretakers of the Earth and advocates for justice within their faith communities.
Takeaways:
- In her recent book, Grace Ji-Sun Kim emphasizes the critical connection between climate change and social justice, urging faith communities to engage actively in ecological advocacy.
- The podcast highlights the importance of viewing environmental stewardship as a theological imperative, challenging the misconception that religious beliefs and ecological concerns are incompatible.
- Grace Ji-Sun Kim's work calls for a paradigm shift in how we perceive God, advocating for a view that embraces creation care as an integral part of faith.
- The discussion underscores the necessity of collective action among churches to address climate justice, illustrating that environmental degradation disproportionately affects marginalized communities.
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Transcript
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the whole church podcast. No intro thing at the beginning because this is a bonus episode. I don't do those for bonus episodes.
Joshua Noel:That's more work. Bonuses are for you not to give me more work. It's like how Sabbath is for the man. There you go. That's your verse. Sabbath is for man, not for God.
What we think about that for church unity is it means us doing less work for bonus episodes. I, Joshua, and I am only here for one sole purpose. To introduce TJ Tiberious Juan Blackwell, the greatest podcaster of all time.
Who's going to introduce me Doing an interview with Grayson June. I'm saying this wrong with grace. Let me just pause with grace.
Jason Kim, we had a lot of fun doing the interview, but we didn't get a chance to do intro outro stuff. We're just here to do that today. Tj, thank you so much for. For doing this intro to your show.
TJ Blackwell:Oh, you're welcome.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
TJ Blackwell:You know, I'm glad to be here.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:This is usually where you tell us to, like, go to YouTube or something. Yeah, go to YouTube, rate, review, do something. Or not.
Hey, this is probably going to come out on a Friday if you feel like listening on your way home to work and you're like, I don't want to do it. If you want to get home, that's fine. This is a bonus for you too.
TJ Blackwell:Yeah, it's okay. Really?
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:We are still going to briefly do a silly question though, because we got it. It's the highest form of unity. And if we don't do it, this isn't really the whole church podcast. It's something el.
So, tj, maybe the most difficult, silly question to date. Apples or oranges?
TJ Blackwell:Oh, oranges. Easy. Stupid question.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, I concur. Is that cuz we're from the south or like, do you think, like, people in northeast think apples are better and they're just dumb?
Joshua Noel:Or maybe, I don't know.
TJ Blackwell:As a kid, I just ate oranges a lot because it's the perfect food.
Joshua Noel:I'm currently drinking orange aid that I made. I just like oranges a lot.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, oranges are great.
TJ Blackwell:No other fruit, except maybe a banana is as interactable, you know?
Joshua Noel:What exactly do you mean by that?
TJ Blackwell:Because like every other fruit, you need a tool. You don't need one if you want to peel it. But you know, if you want to peel an apple, you're gonna need a knife or an apple peeler.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Oranges are like peel.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:So True.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:And they're also fun, and the smell.
Joshua Noel:Is great, and they're delicious.
Joshua Noel:You make orange juice.
Joshua Noel:Yep.
Joshua Noel:Oranges are superior. In fact, maybe that's a new stipulation. You know, we got, like, the Trinity. Yeah. Jesus is God. Yeah. These tier one church unity issues.
You gotta like oranges more than apples. Everything else.
Joshua Noel:Yep, yep.
Joshua Noel:I mean, secondary tertiary stuff, but, like, you know who God is, who Jesus is. Oranges over apples. Those are the main things.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:I've never had an apple good enough that to the point where I would have eaten it over, like, an average orange.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Now sometimes I like apples. You know, like, I'll go get a green apple, I'll eat. Apple pie is great.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:But, like, if you just hand me an apple and an orange and you're.
Joshua Noel:Like, yeah, you got to eat one of these, I'm eating the orange.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:I will say. I mean, it does depend. It depends on what I'm about to do, because if my hands need to be clean, I probably am not gonna eat the one.
Joshua Noel:Although the apple probably still gonna be kind of messy. Just not as messy.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:I think it's worth it. I'm still gonna eat the orange. Even if I do need my hands to be clean.
Joshua Noel:I don't care.
TJ Blackwell:I probably would still eat one time. And this is all I'll say on the matter before you move on. One time in middle school, I had 14 oranges for lunch.
Joshua Noel:Praise God.
TJ Blackwell:It was awesome.
Joshua Noel:See, stuff like that is like when earlier you called to tell me something, my first thought was TJ called and told me he has diabetes now. But I feel like you're not gonna call to tell me. It's just gonna casually come up sometime.
You're like, oh, by the way, if you do drink a entire pint of Dr. Pepper every day, you might get diabetes. I figured that out with a little experiment I ran by drinking a pint of Dr. Pepper every day.
TJ Blackwell:Yeah, a pint is not that much.
Joshua Noel:How.
Joshua Noel:How much should we. A gallon.
TJ Blackwell:A gallon?
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Okay. A gallon of Dr. Pepper a day. That's the science experiment.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Noel:All right, guys, well, thanks for hanging around for the silly question. You know, we had to do it. We hope you really enjoy this conversation I have with Grace Jisung Kim about her book that just released.
Wasn't supposed to release August, but just released Earthbound. Great book. It's a really fun conversation. Just talking about environmental concerns, church unity, all the stuff that we, you know, like around here.
Joshua Noel:All right.
Joshua Noel:I am here with Grace.
Joshua Noel:Just Son Kim.
Joshua Noel:We are really excited.
We're going to be talking about her upcoming book that should be out by the time you guys are listening to this Earthbound God at the intersection of climate and justice. We have a lot of fun with this. Before we get too much into it, Grace, this is your first time on our podcast, the Whole Church podcast.
I want to just ask you a little bit about yourself for those listening.
Joshua Noel:What.
Joshua Noel:What do you think they might want to know as far as, like, your faith journey and what you do?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Okay, well, thank you, Joshua, for inviting me to be on your podcast. I'm so sad that it's taken this long to be on your podcast. But anyway, thank you so much. It was really good to reconnect with you.
And I did that Homebrew Christianity Live podcast and Trinity Luther Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill. So it was great to see you there.
And just to say a little bit about myself, I'm a professor of theology at Haram School of Religion and written many books. And the one that we'll be discussing is actually my 25th book. And I'm not a numbers person.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim: that it came out in the year:So I've done a lot of work on climate change with the World Council of Churches, with the Presbyterian Church USA and other organizations. So that's been part of my kind of work, aside from the teaching.
And I also am a host of Madang Podcast, which is hosted by Christian Century, and that is, you know, I only do one a month if I can get it done, and inviting new authors to share their new book. And, you know, I've been doing it for about two and a half years. It's a lot of work.
So I'm just grateful for podcasters like you that make it look so easy because I find it so difficult to do, man.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, it depends on the week.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Okay, I see. So it's great to be here with you. So thanks again for inviting me.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah. I'm really excited to get to talk to you on our show. For those listening, fill you guys in.
I know Grace from Theology Beer Camp, so I met her there with Trip Fuller. That kind of crowd with a lot of them have been on the show before. So I think they're familiar.
And then, yeah, over the summer, I think I've mentioned on the show before at Pastor Will's church. That's actually my pastor. My church. I just don't.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Oh, I didn't know it was your church.
Joshua Noel:Oh, yeah, I don't live near there, but it's my church because I wanted to change membership. Brothers. It's a great. Churchill's my pastor, so it's like I might as well just make it my church. Yeah, it's great. Beautiful place, too.
I think that's actually the first place we met where. If you were there a couple years ago when theology boot camp was there. Yeah, yeah. So that's always cool. Just fun making those connections.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Yeah, that was an unforgettable VR camp because, you know, I posted pictures from this year, that live podcast that you were at, which was, you know, hosted by Trip Fuller and Will Rose. And people on social media commented, oh, we know how you were on that same stage three years ago. So people still remember how I was.
Joshua Noel:So.
Joshua Noel:Oh, man. Yeah, that was a. That was definitely. It was a fun time.
Joshua Noel:Oh, man.
Joshua Noel:But so. So get in your book. Well, let's start easy. Earthbound, we're talking about, you know, a lot of your books have to do with the Holy Spirit.
And say this one is. Does tie in. We'll get to there. But the focus of it is kind of clean energy, climate change, that kind of stuff.
What was the inspiration for, you know, really digging in on that.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Yeah, so I've done a few other books on climate change, so. And sustainability. So one of them is the Transformative Spirit of Love.
And then I did one, Making Peace with the Earth, which was published by the World Council of Churches. So that one is an edited volume. Many of the contributors were part of the working group on climate change.
And then the third one was co edited with Hilda Coster called Planetary Solidarity. So I've done a lot of work on climate change, sustainability and the church and eco theology.
So I felt like I just needed to do another book on this topic, which is so important for us today. I think, you know, maybe we've not fully, but I think majority of people are now accepting that climate change is caused by human beings.
It's not just like, oh, it's a phase that we're going through.
No, there is a direct correlation of how we live, how we pollute the Earth, and, you know, how we dig up, you know, resources from the ground and from the earth and cause all this pollution. That is the direct cause of the climate change. So I felt like I would just do another book on eco theology and climate and sustainability.
So that's what led me to write this book.
And, you know, it wasn't like I was planning to write it, but I had written small pieces already and I just felt like I just need to do a full book on this. So that's what led me to write this particular book. Earthbound.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Noel:And I know you're a professor of theology. Do you have a degree in science as well, or is this more theological reason why you got into it? A little bit about that.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:So I have no degree in science, but, you know, always my deep interest. So my favorite topic in high school was biology and I just assumed I was going to go into sciences or the medical field and.
But somehow, well, that's what most Asians expect of their children. And that wasn't expected of me. But I was. I had this really big interest in biology.
And, you know, I grew up in Toronto, Canada, and we had grade 13 at the time, so I was the last grade 13 class. So that's five years of high school. So I do still remember very clearly my grade 13 biology class.
It was Mr. Yamaguchi and, you know, he said, we're going to start dissecting, so we're going to start with a frog, then a rat and then a cat. So it was quite interesting. So my interest in science was always there.
It just when I got into my undergrad, I thought, I'm going to go into theology and what would be the best degree to prepare me? So I did a undergrad in psychology, which is a Bachelor of Science in Canada. I think it's probably the same here in the U.S. yeah, so.
But that's not like the hardcore science that you kind of were referring to. So my interest in science has always been there and to study a bit more of it in doing this echo theology has been very insightful.
I think those in the church, you get a notion that science and religion don't go well together. Right. Because I think the scare of, oh, evolution, you know, you can't teach evolution because that's science and its fault.
So we get this notion that science and religion don't come together, but we know it's always gone hand in hand. And I think our. One of our contemporary theologians that really delves into this is Ilia Delio.
And I know she was a speaker at the beer camp last year. And I think she's one of the most brilliant minds of our time today, where she does talk about science, to talk about God.
And it's very enlightening to me. Some of it is really heavy duty science. So I don't get it fully. Some.
Joshua Noel:Her stuff goes over my head. It's fine.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Yeah, yeah. And even when she talks, it goes over my head too. And she was a guest on my podcast for her new book, for her newest book, the God.
Not yet, but she's really brilliant and she realized on a lot of science. So I don't rely as much on science, but I'm gleaning from science and what they've been sharing with us of this climate crisis that we are in.
And if we continue to live just the same, we are on a path towards destruction. So science has been very clear on that warning us for decades already.
And so it's really important, important that theologians now kind of take it seriously. You know, theology is not divorced from the context that we live in or from what science or what psychology or history.
All these disciplines are teaching us.
We learn from each other, and we use each other's resources and learnings and teachings to get even a deeper understanding of who God is and what theology is and what theology means for us today.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joshua Noel:I. The one thing you said that. I'm trying to word this into a question. It's more just an observation.
That was interesting because, you know, science for the most part, does agree we're on the way to destroying ourselves.
It's a little weird for me that just when I've grown up and just what I know of the church and of science, like, it feels like my whole life the church has been saying the world's about the end because the Bible says so. And then science keeps telling me the world's gonna end because science says so, and we just accept the world's gonna end.
Joshua Noel:I guess.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Great question, because I guess that will be like a default for many people who are, you know, in the church that says, who cares about this because the world's gonna end? You know, Christ talked about the end of, you know, the end times. And even, you know, the Book of Revelations is talking about end times.
So that's just one little aspect of maybe eschatology and theology. The larger, more important aspect is sustainability and God as creator.
So we're not trying to promote a God of destruction, but that God is a God who created the world, who created the universe and created this planet Earth, and in the process believe that everything is beautiful, that it is good. And so after the light, you know, it is good. After the animals it is good, and after human beings it is good.
So we are not to be out there to destroy the earth and God's creation. We are called to sustain and to take care of it. So we are not to be this, you know, if we're gonna look at Revelations or, you know, the end times.
We're not supposed to be instigators of this or create the end times. We are to be co creators.
We are called to be taking care of the earth and that you can find in the book of Genesis and Psalms and in the New Testament writing. We are not to be destroyers. We are to be caretakers. We are to take care of the animals.
We have to take care of the plants and the earth and the water and the air. So for those who are thinking, oh, you know, and Tom, so who cares?
No, our calling is not who cares, but our calling is to take care of God's creation. That's a really big high calling. And I think we've kind of moved away from it because we've misinterpreted scripture or misused scripture.
So one, you know, classic example would be, you know, in the Genesis passage about domination, you know, to, rather than taking care, you know, we have gone out to dominate the earth and in the process of dominating the earth, we have kind of destroyed the earth or are in our, in the path of destruction.
So I love your question, but I think it's the wrong question that many people are posing to kind of let themselves rid of themselves rid of the responsibility that they are supposed to be caretakers and not, you know, destroyers.
Because that approach, the question that you pose is, you know, then it leaves us, you know, let's, let's go of our own responsibilities and says, you know, you can do whatever you want because end times is near.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, I think I agree with that. I know for myself it's, it was difficult, but it wasn't too challenging.
Once I started like seeing different ways, reading the Bible, I got to introduce Pete and different stuff going, okay, maybe we're doing this in time stuff wrong and maybe this isn't what the Bible's trying to tell us to do. The other thing that was challenging for me, when we get to like the ecology stuff.
For a long time, my understanding, like having studied, you know, just stuff of the earth and science, I was like, the Earth used to be really, really hot. And for a long time we were calling it global warming. We weren't saying climate change.
So I'm really glad you said climate change, but that, that really confused me when I was like in high school and I remember going to college originally thought I was going to be a marine biologist.
I took an oceanography class and it was just so like eye opening because he has like this chart from like what we know scientifically of like how hot the earth used to be and how much it's cooled down and we're still in that cool down period. We're nowhere near as hot as it used to be.
And then he zooms in on the graph and the thing that's actually telling is this is the quickest the earth temperature has ever changed.
It's not really about hot or cold, it's about how rapidly it's changing and how the environment just isn't suited for rapid change of just that basic level temperature part of climate. And it's like that to me really opened my eyes.
Was there anything for you when you first saw it that you were like oh wait, no, this maybe this is serious?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Yeah, well it is very serious because we're depleting the ozone layer. That's the problem. And that's why the temperature is increasing so rapidly.
And we need that layer for the protection and whatever has been created, it's there to serve a purpose.
And so for us to pollute and all this carbon dioxide and the carbon footprint that we are creating when that ozone lower layer is depleting, that is going to cause more havoc to the earth. So that is the problem that we are facing.
And you know, with the rapid increase in temperature, you know, it has severe consequences not just for human beings but for the whole entire planet and everything on the planet.
You know, every year we get record breaking temperatures so they can, you know, I don't know when they started collecting all the temperatures but it's record breaking. And it's been record breaking in North America and in Europe, you know, most recently in Greece.
The Acropolis has been closed and it's never been closed but they had to close it down because of the record breaking temperature. They don't want people passing out there or dying there as they're climbing up. So this is quite alarming.
So with the increase in the temperature it also causes storms to be worse than before. So the tsunamis, you know, in the winter, you know, the blizzards and the flooding is worse.
And we have seen this in real time in Texas, but not just in Texas, but in other places where the increase in temperature you just get worse floods than if it wasn't so hot in temperature wise and then it will increase the sea level. So the ocean, Air Oceania area, where there are the islands, they're going to be affected. There will be no islands left.
So if we continue to have this record breaking temperature, which will increase the sea level, which will have tremendous effects on land and on the ocean and everything else. So it's not just one thing that's being affected, it's just this domino effect.
And, you know, people will not be able to live in certain areas anymore because of the high increase in temperatures. We're not made to live in those high temperatures because our bodies can only tolerate so much.
And in those hot temperatures, no vegetation will grow and etc. Etc. The rivers will dry up, et cetera. So this is really alarming.
And as you know, people, your listeners and those who listen to your podcast will ask, well, does it matter? Well, yes, it matters because we are people of faith. We cannot allow this destruction of the planet. It's the same thing.
Much of my work is intersectional, so I do work on climate change and gender justice and racial justice.
When racism is killing people, we can't just be as people of faith and say, well, it's not killing me, so, you know, I can just relax and everything's okay. No, as people of faith, we have to fight against this, against gender injustice, against racial injustice.
And then also now with this climate injustice, the fact that it's destroying the planet, we can't just sit back and say, well, it's the end times. No, we have to do something about it. We are called to work for justice, and climate is one of the most important social justice issues of our time.
So I hope your listeners will get my book Earthbound. But then more importantly, do something about this climate change that's happening right before our eyes.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Noel:Well, I know you have a limited time, so just like a couple more questions for you and I'll let you go.
I do want to say quickly for those who are like, oh, you know, we usually when talk about climate change, you think of like the Arctic caps and all this like huge stuff. And it's hard for some people to visualize, start keeping track of how many butterflies you see. This is one thing that's really crazy.
There's a lot of data behind this stuff. Like, because I actually started a pollinator garden a few years ago, I became really hyper aware of this part of it.
Butterflies and pollinators in general are just dying out in front of us. And you can track that because their lifespan is shorter.
Joshua Noel:So the cycle of life for all.
Joshua Noel:This happens just so much quicker. You can just keep track of that.
Just like looking in your garden, seeing how many you have this year, how many is next year, and they're just dying out pretty quick, you know, without pollinators, our plants are going to die out, and then, then the things that eat plants die, you know, so it's like, so start. I know. I think that's maybe an easier one for people to visualize getting to.
Just a couple other questions, though, actually had somebody wanted me to ask you this. I was just going to ask this one on their behalf. Shout out to Tyler.
The question was just kind of, are there any studies or data points for the intersection of people of faith and sustainability efforts? Do we know whether people of faith are better or worse for the environment?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:I guess I don't know about the exact data and I don't know if there has been, but I know that it's very diverse. Lots of Christians who are advocating for this climate justice issue.
And then on the other hand, Christians can be one of the worst polluters because of the misinterpretation of, you know, you can dominate over the earth, you can do whatever you wish with the earth. So I don't know if we're the worst or the best. But I think overall, because I've done.
I've looked at some of the European churches and the Asian churches. I know North American churches are really far behind in this sustainability. You know, just clear example.
The church that I'm serving in term, we have, because I just witnessed one church member wanted to see how many dishes that we have in our cupboards. And our cupboards are quite large, and there's a lot of plates, a lot of bowls, a lot of cups, and there's a lot of everything.
I think maybe like 200. That's my guess of each. So that means, like, if there were 200 people in the church, there'll be enough setting for everybody.
But over time, the churches, and it's not just this church, churches in general in North America are now just using disposable plates, Styrofoam plates, paper cups or plastic cups. And we're just throwing away because we can't be bothered to wash all the dishes after fellowship or after some gathering or meal.
So this is just churches in general, because I preach in many churches, I visit many churches, and this is what's happening. So overall, the churches here in North America aren't doing a good job. I think in other places people are doing better jobs.
So this is an unfortunate thing.
So that's just one aspect of it, but it is a large aspect because churches may only meet once a week and on that Sunday to produce bag fulls of garbage is not the route that we should be going. So that person who was doing a survey was wondering whether we should be using the plates again and trying to get our dishwasher to work.
But even if the dishwasher doesn't work, there's plenty of volunteers can help wash dishes. So there's ways in that, you know, we can work towards sustainability. Rather than producing a lot of garbage.
We sometimes think, oh, it's only a bag of garbage.
No, there was a lot of production that went into producing that plastic bag, the plastic forks, the plastic cups, you know, that's all this pollution that's going into the air. So it's not just that end result of the garbage bag. It is all this process of creating it and then just using it once and throw it away.
That's where the big problem is too. So we just have to look as people of faith, you know, what can we do that is more sustainable?
I know many churches are growing vegetable gardens and either eating them or you know, using those, the fruits to serve or give it to kitchens and other places. So you know, churches own land and I'm hoping that we can be more thinking, more sustainably.
How can we kind of use this land to produce, you know, be co creators and produce the fruit and vegetables for consumption rather than just, you know, throwing fertilizer all over. I mean not fertilizer, it's more pesticides, you know, all over the lawn, in our homes and all these places. You know, that's also killing us too.
So we're not really good in this sustainability act and we just need to do better.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, I know.
Joshua Noel:I agree with all that, man. Got a lot of follow ups I would do. I'm saved because I got a couple reference questions at the end.
Just other than your book, some of the stuff we might want to check out.
But before we get to references, because my last question is since you're the Holy Spirit person, we all know you write all the Holy Spirit books and even in the title of this book. So it's interesting. So the subtitle you have justice and Ecology. I think it is.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:I was trying to God at the intersection of justice.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, intersection of climate and justice. That's what I said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. For me it's kind of weird.
I can see the intersection of climate and justice specifically where I'm like, okay, justice, climate. I can see where they're related. It's easy for me to think of Holy Spirit and justice. Holy Spirit and climate's a little weird.
I don't know what it is like for me. I'm having a hard time making that connection. How do you. How do you bridge that gap for us?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Well, it's weird because people don't write about it, but once people start writing about it, it'll be the norm. So. But I love this question because I always say, and in Tripp's podcast, I always say, everything leads to the Holy Spirit. So, you know, we are.
So my book, the subtitle God at the Intersection of Climate and Justice. I think, you know, God is the big umbrella.
And, you know, I talk about the Spirit too, but I think we are just thinking about God in these terms of dominance. So we think of God as king, as Lord, as savior. You know, we have these dominant images, and the images of who God is affect how we behave.
So those kind of images allowed the rulers, the emperors and the kings to say, hey, we can go out and dominate the earth and dominate other people. We can enslave them, we can capture them, we can slaughter them. And I go more in depth in my other book, When God Became White.
So you can read this one and read Earthbound, because both of these topics kind of overlap, but in Earthbound, because, you know, I'm saying we need to move away from that so that we don't become human beings who are dominant, who want to dominate over the earth and over God's creation and just use it for our own use and our own profit. So to move away from that, you know, I do then propose different ways of looking at who God is.
So I don't want to go into too much depth in the podcast because I want people to buy the book. But the spirit part is that it's really the spirit within us that pushes us and moves us to work for justice. I think many people forget about that.
So it is really, you know, some of this is really difficult work. You know, some of us fall into temptation of convenience, of greed, of over consumption that, you know, we don't want to live sustainably.
We don't want to fight for climate change and climate justice. So we get a little lazy or tired. So for me, it's always, you know, we can't do it alone. So that's why we need the Spirit to help us.
It is the Holy Spirit within us that motivates us and pushes us to work for justice. So this climate work is really justice work. So that's why, for me, you know, everything leads to the spirit, because we don't.
Sometimes you don't have enough energy or the willpower or the strength or even the courage, the courage to speak out against this climate justice against our lawmakers. You know, we need to. To do something better. You know, Trump took us out of the Paris Agreement.
You know, we really need to be part of that Paris Agreement. And that Paris Agreement was to say that us will produce less and less greenhouse gases and less pollution by a certain year. And he took us out.
So letting us go of this obligation while many other countries signed onto this Paris Agreement. I was actually at that cop meeting in Paris when they were driving, drafting the agreement, and we were part of it, and Trump took us out.
So we really need to be part of this. And so it's really the Holy Spirit that calls us and sustains us and gives us the energy to be part of it.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.
Joshua Noel:All right, so I just have two quick questions for, like, how we can get other references before just filling our listeners in. If you hold. Pay attention. Some of that Holy Spirit getting us to work together stuff. That's the church unity bit.
You know, it's your favorite Christian unity podcast.
It does require us to work together with the spirit and one another to kind of see this stuff done again, I'm going to remind you, and I'll remind you again at the end, her book's name, it's Earthbound, got at the intersection of climate and justice. You should be able to get it now. I'll say the name again at the end so you guys don't forget.
But first, Grace just for references, because a lot of times it can be hard to figure out where to start for, you know, stuff like you were talking about doing our own vegetation, doing dishes instead of having paper cups and stuff.
And our other podcast, Systematic Ecology, we talked earlier this year about how, like, it's actually difficult to decide to get physical comics or digital because if you're not reading that much, the digital ones actually produce a lot more waste. But if you're reading a lot, you end up saving when you do that. So it's kind of hard to, like, tell what.
Sometimes it's just difficult to know what is the best thing to do for the environment. Is there, like, a quick resource that people can go to? They're just like, hey, here's what you should do.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:I don't know offhand a quick resource, but you could always think to Yourself, because this is an ethical choice that you have to make every day. So every morning you're making a choice until you go to bed. And the choice is okay in the summertime. Are you going to always blast that ac?
You don't have to blast it. You know, the whole world is saying Americans are in love with ac. Not everyone around the world has ac. But even if they do, they don't blast it.
You know, we think if it's not at 65, you know, we're going to all die. No, we lived with fans for a long time. So the air conditioning is producing so much pollution and waste, you know, the energy.
So every morning we're making that decision and it'll be the same in the wintertime. Can we wear a thicker sweater rather than, you know, increasing the heat as much as we do? And these are just individual decisions.
But as a whole, corporations and churches and seminaries need to make the same decision. Do we have to blast it? Do we have to increase it in the winter? So those are daily questions.
And then even the coffee that you drink, the tea that you drink, the foods that you eat, these are all decisions that you have to make every day. And you think, well, quickly about the food. I think Americans were eating way too much meat. So can we consume less meat? Because of the vital.
The virtual water that goes into producing a hamburger is so much more than having a tomato. So, you know, can we eat less meat?
And I say this at churches all the time and everybody gets a little upset because we Americans love to eat a lot of meat. But it is, can we reduce it to once a day? And if you can do that, maybe once a week or maybe even once a month or just get rid of eating meat.
So these are just decisions. So I don't have a manual, but it's. You get up every morning and it's a decision that you're going to make.
So every time when we think about wasting water, we think, oh, shorter showers. Yes, do shorter showers. But it's the virtual water.
How much water goes into producing the chicken or the cow or, you know, the pig versus vegetarian or the, the nuts or the beans that you'll be eating. So, you know, this is for all the listeners to decide on your own. I'm not here to say you got to not eat meat, but it is. Can you reduce it?
Can you reduce the consumption of. And it's fashion too. Everything is producing a lot of waste and, and pollution. So it's everything you decide from morning to night.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, I, yeah, I know there's a lot of different research on some of this stuff and not everyone agrees all the time. So I don't want to tell listeners what to do.
I will say though, organic meats or like, you know, free range, all that kind of stuff usually, usually provide less waste than your, you know, your cheeseburgers and stuff. You're getting like McDonald's and they're a lot more filling because they have more nutrients. So you don't want as much. So.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:And you know, it's all tied in with also animal cruelty. A lot of people aren't eating meat. Animal cruelty aspect. Yeah. So, yeah.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Okay, last resource question, then repeat the name of the book and we're out of here. This one's a little bit easier, I think, for you yourself.
Is there a story like a book or a movie or anything that you're like, man, this is a great story in promotion of, you know, sustainability. Sustainability. Like I love Wild Robot or like Happy Feet, like the penguin movie.
Is there anything for you that you're like, this is a great green energy movie and people should watch it or book or.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Well, the one that really changed me a lot was that Inconvenient Truth and then that's without gore.
So people, it's an older one, it's probably 20 year documentary, so a lot of the stats have changed, but I think people can go and probably watched on YouTube. So that was a very important movie for me and I've shown it in my classes many times, so I would ask people to watch that.
And I don't know about books, but anyway, you can read my book Earthbound or if you want the Making Peace with the Earth. That's, you know, you can find these all online.
Joshua Noel:So.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:But please do order Earthbound. God. At the intersection of climate and justice.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Thank you so much for joining me. This was a lot of fun. Thank you listeners for hanging around. One more time, it's Grace Gson Kim.
Earthbound got at the intersection of climate and justice. Guys, please check this book out. It should be available when this drops and we appreciate you reading that and talk with us. Send me a message.
And I'd be glad to talk more about sustainability with any of our listeners too. So thank you and thank you, Grace.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Thank you so much, Joshua, for having me on. It was a joy. Thank you so much.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, I really appreciate it.
Joshua Noel:Wow, that was a great conversation.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah.
Joshua Noel:All right, guys, thank you so much for listening to that Conversation we had with Grace, of course. You know, we always like to do a few other things here at the outro that we didn't have time. I didn't have time for when we did the interview.
Before we get to, like, the.
The normal main stuff, tj, I asked Grace, I need to know from you, too, like, as far as, like, environmental films that you're like, man, this is just a really good film that people should watch.
You know, we actually have an entire episode of Systematic Ecology about animated, ecological, good green energy kind of films, but just in general, doesn't have to be animated. If you have, like, one that's like, people should watch this. What would it be?
TJ Blackwell:That's a hard question.
Joshua Noel:Probably.
TJ Blackwell:Probably Godzilla minus one.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:I wouldn't have thought of that. That makes sense, though. Also didn't mention in the episode, but Morgan Freeman just narrates a lot of movies that are about the planet.
They're all great.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:Runner up, Planet Earth 2. It's really good.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Noel:True, true, true, true.
Joshua Noel:All right.
Joshua Noel:So, teacher, you want to jump into God moments?
TJ Blackwell:Yeah. So if you're new here, weird choice for our first episode, but we always like to end our show with what we call the God moment.
And we just talk about where we saw God in our lives recently, whether that be a blessing, moment of worship, challenge, curse, or whatever it is, whatever God's put in your life. That's what we talk about now before the outro. So I always make Josh go first to give the rest of us plenty of time to think.
Josh, do you have a God moment for us?
Joshua Noel:Yeah, I always have a lot.
Joshua Noel:I just want to. Don't spoil it for other recordings we might be doing the same day. I'm gonna go with an easy one.
Joshua Noel:We.
Joshua Noel:The other day, we were looking for. We were going to go to Lowe's to get new hummingbird feeders because, like, that's where the cheap, easy ones to find were. Near where I live.
All right, we'll go there. Wife decides to stop at Goodwill first. Because we always have to stop at Goodwill for reasons.
Even though we find great stuff, I still just don't love stopping at Goodwill. I don't like to shop. Really has nothing to do with Goodwill.
Joshua Noel:Although I do have problems with it.
Joshua Noel:As an organization, but that's. That's different.
Anyway, stopped at Goodwill on the way to Lowe's, and they just had two identical hummingbird feeders there for, like, a dollar each. So just happened upon them, came back. The hummingbirds love them, and we have, like, 20 hummingbirds that just swarm our backyard all the time.
And it's. It's great.
So just seeing God, A, and the fact that, like, hey, we just randomly found exactly what we needed, and B, in the beauty of just hummingbirds fighting with each other in our yard.
Joshua Noel:Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
TJ Blackwell:Pretty awesome. For me, it's not really that, you know, a lot's going on, a lot of big plans are happening around me, and a lot is changing.
So God's definitely doing something. I know that much.
Joshua Noel:Do I know what's changing?
TJ Blackwell:No, I don't think so.
Joshua Noel:I say, am I just missing part of TJ lore?
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Are the Titans come back and Zeus can't give them this time, so he asked for your help?
TJ Blackwell:No, not this time.
Joshua Noel:Okay.
Joshua Noel:I'll ask you off here later then.
TJ Blackwell:Yeah, I'm on a sabbatical from Mount Olympus.
Joshua Noel:I thought you just like sabbatical. Specifically from. From dealing with Titans.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Well, yeah, all of the duties.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Contain Irin, but duty.
TJ Blackwell:Thank you so much for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. And, you know, thank you to Grace Kim for her time, which was a long time ago now at this point, you know.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Noel:Be sure to share it with your. Your cousins. Yeah, it's Friday. Don't bother sharing with anybody else. Just cousins.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:Enemies can wait till weekdays.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, that.
TJ Blackwell:That Friday spam, like, let it go.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
Joshua Noel:I'm trying to think of, like, upcoming episodes.
I mean, obviously, if you can follow all of the Onaza podcast network, if this is coming out on a Friday, you're probably going to get like a systematic ecology drive in episode today. We probably got Kung Fu Pizza Party with Rain tonight coming out. My ceremony in Life with Bray tonight comes out Sundays or Saturdays.
Oh, it's a weekend. I listen to them on Sundays. I'm really not sure when they post because I have Saturday off, so I miss my podcast and catch up on Sunday.
Anyway, check all that out. It's a lot of fun. Upcoming episodes. We got Brian Wrecker, Hell Bent. We still haven't released that because we're trying to do it closer to his book.
So we have it recorded. It'll be coming out soon.
A roundtable conversation of how churches can better handle the limited time we have with people compared to the amount of time spending with, like, news media kind of stuff. What's another one that we've done recently?
Joshua Noel:Tj, we did one recently.
Joshua Noel:I was like, oh, that was really good.
TJ Blackwell:I. I don't order things chronologically in my mind. Yeah, just because I don't know when it's gonna come out, so I don't bother trying.
Joshua Noel:That's fair.
Joshua Noel:Who do we record with last week? Do you remember?
TJ Blackwell:No, Last Week does not exist in here.
Joshua Noel:Me neither. Man, I wish I knew, guys, because I'm pretty sure it was cool. Oh, I do. Bible 101 with Dr. Pete Link, and.
Joshua Noel:And Edward Gravely.
Joshua Noel:Yeah, I know.
Joshua Noel:It's Dr. Gravely.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah, that.
Joshua Noel:That was also. It was really fun to record, and they're more on the conservative end, but it was a great episode. I think everyone will enjoy it. So check those out.
And remember, what was the thing at the end? DJ Aren't they supposed to be, like, inviting someone to the show?
TJ Blackwell:Francis Chan, I think that's right.
Joshua Noel:Yeah.
TJ Blackwell:I don't remember the original bit, but we'll go with Francis Chan.
Joshua Noel:Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Noel:It's at the end of season one, but you guys have to invite him, so. Yeah, if you don't, it won't happen.
TJ Blackwell:Pretty pleased.
