The Whole Church Science Fair: Conversations on Creation and Chemistry

Joshua Noel: 00:00:27

Proverbs 2, 1:6 in the New American Standard Bible.

My son, if you accept my words and store up my commandments within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, indeed, if you call out for insight and cry out for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. The Lord gives wisdom. From his mouth comes understanding and knowledge.

In this proverb, the writer is describing the importance and value of wisdom and knowledge. The author here ties the pursuit of knowledge to the fear of the Lord.

Dr. Benjamin Phillips, why do you think the author may have made this connection here?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:01:07

I think for two reasons. One reason is that knowing God is the. Is knowing the most fundamental element of reality? And if you get that wrong, you're.

You're going to get confused about everything else in some way, shape or form.

The other reason that I think he makes that connection is, is because knowing something in your head and knowing what to do with it are two different things. And maturity comes when you have both.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:36

Yeah, I like that. Good distinction to hey guys, welcome to the Whole Church Science fair. The first real episode.

We already did the intro with just TJ and I. Hopefully, guys, you enjoyed that and helped you prepare for this awesome conversation we're gonna have. I'm unsure if TJ is going to be able to make it today, guys. He had had death in the family.

So if you're listening, you want to pray for his family, I'm sure the Black Wheels would appreciate it. But I am still here to do my job, which is to introduce other humans. So today we're really excited.

You guys do know Dr. Beck's been on the show a lot, so our listeners are familiar with him. Well, Dr. Peter Beck has recommended two of his colleagues from Charleston Southern University who do a little bit more with science than he does.

So we have Dr. David Perry. He is a biochemist and a assistant. Sorry, Associate professor of chemistry at Charleston Southern University.

And we have Dr. Benjamin Phillips, who is the Dean of Christian Studies at Charleston Southern. Thank you guys. Welcome. Really appreciate you guys joining us today.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:02:42

It's good to be here.

David Perry: 00:02:43

To be here.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:44

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you'd be happier to be here if TJ was here, but it's fine. We can have moderate levels of happiness.

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And now I get to do the part that I usually do and enjoy the most. The sacred act of silliness. You can't be in division when you're being as silly as I like to be. So we always start off with this.

Today's is a pretty simple. I'll start first, give you ties. Guys time to think about it. If you were a reptile, what reptile do you think you would be?

It's not what reptile I want to be, but what reptile do I think I would. See, the thing is, I would want to be some form of turtle. I love turtles. I think everybody who knows me probably knows that.

I'm not sure turtles correct, though. Maybe a tort. Actually, you know what? To my chagrin, probably a gator, because I love Florida.

I love swamps, marshlands, water, and I love not moving too much and eating meat. So I think I'm gonna go with, I'd probably be a gator, even though I'd rather be a turtle.

Dr. Perry, if you were a reptile, what reptile do you think you would be?

David Perry: 00:04:36

Well, I think you took mine.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:38

I think we can all go the same way.

David Perry: 00:04:40

I think I'd probably be the tortoise. I'm usually one in it for the long haul, and I'm just gonna plod along till I get to the finish line and hopefully beat the hare or.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:51

Whoever else might be perfect. Perfect. All right, Dr. Phillips, bring us home.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:04:56

Well, I. I would want to be a Komodo dragon because just the idea being a dragon sounds really cool, but. But in truth, I'm gonna have to go with a diamondback terrapin. As a graduate of the University of Maryland, I'm gonna be a turtle, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:05:10

Yeah, I. I envy you. I wish I could say that that was more fitting with my personality. It's just not like when you think of like adhd high energy folks.

I don't think many people think Turtle, but you know, I, I can dream.

David Perry: 00:05:23

Yeah, for sure.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:24

Why not? Yeah, maybe I just go to Maryland and check it off.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:05:28

My.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:31

But to start off, guys, but we were hoping, and we're gonna ask, I think all, but maybe just most of our guests that are part of this little mini series we're doing with faith and science, could you share with us some about your history when it comes to both, like the church proper as well as the scientific community? And I'll throw it to Ben first, since Dr. Perry got to start the silly question.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:05:53

Okay, well, so I, I grew up going to church from a, you know, from an early age and came to faith in Christ when I was, was six years old. So I've always been interested in the apologetics side of things. But, but for me, my, my real interest has come to be in creation as a doctrine.

And so I'm, you know, going to a secular state university, you know, to, to public high schools. You know, this is, this is, this is something I appreciate.

I, I, I like living in a modern world with televisions and the Internet and, and, and all that kind of stuff. And I, and I, I value what's, what science has delivered for us and that, that approach to what that approach can yield in the universe.

Unfortunately, I also see a double edged sword. For every good thing that we figure out, we figure out something evil to do with it as well.

And so my concern primarily has been for thinking through some of those kinds of issues and through creation as a doctrine rather than primarily as an argument between two different fields of knowledge.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:03

Yeah, and I'm sure we'll dig a little bit more into that. But first, Dr. Perry, could you, same question.

Just kind of give us some of your background concerning the church and the scientific community at large?

David Perry: 00:07:14

Yeah. So I'm from small town northeastern Ohio and grew up with mom and dad and five other siblings.

And when you have a family that size, oftentimes just getting to church on Sunday seems like a victory. And so I grew up in a, it was a small, small country Methodist church. I grew up hearing about the Bible, hearing from it from mom and dad at home.

And when I came to Christ as a teenager, certainly that was a response to the Holy Spirit calling.

But what made that decision, one that was easy for me to make, was aside from hearing all the Bible stories and being taught scripture, was watching the example that my mom and dad lived before me. And I would say in their instance, you know, their actions Spoke louder than their words.

And no statistics tell us that, you know, if one's going to come to Christ, it's usually as a youngster. Those numbers, once one reaches adulthood are a lot smaller. So I can't overestimate the role that my mom and dad examples played in my life.

And then my, my interaction with science. You know, I knew from a young age I liked living things. I didn't know what particular aspects.

So when I went to college, I majored in biology, minored in chemistry, and my eureka moment was my junior year as an undergrad taking a biochemistry course. That's when, you know, the different pieces of the puzzle started coming together for me.

And I decided to go on and do my graduate work in postdoctoral research in the field of biochemistry.

And you know, when, when one is doing a research and you know, I was in secular environments in those years, you know, for better or worse, we work on a platform of methodological naturalism that some have called provisional atheism, where you go in a laboratory and you try to answer a question and come up with an answer where it's understood. You don't say God did it, you're trying to a naturalistic explanation. So.

Well, on one hand I, you know, I was interested in interface of Christianity and science. I never saw any conflict them with them except maybe depending on how we understand the issue of evolution. That's always a big one there.

And it, it wasn't until, you know, later years, particularly since I've been at csu, where not so much involved in research, more focused on teaching, where I've had time to, you know, to, to read more, to, you know, develop a fuller understanding on how science and the Christian faith interact with one another. But I find those are fascinating topics to me.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:57

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, just, just on that, before we get into anything too deep, just more generally, I know you both kind of mentioned evolution or creationism as a doctrine and a lot of the times I think it's about that, but a lot of times I think it's more than that.

There's this sense, I think in our culture today that churches, especially more conservative churches like the Southern Baptist Convention or churches in the Southern Baptist Convention tend to be at odds with science. We think that if you're in these churches, you don't like science and kind of vice versa. What reasons other than like the evolution creationism one?

Is there any other reasons or is that pretty much it, why people make that assumption?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:10:40

Well, I would, I would, I would say first of all, people like science when they like it and they don't. When they don't.

So, you know, you have people who, who aren't church going folks who have a real problem with say, vaccines that, you know, there, there are people in church world who have a problem there and there are people in the world of Hollywood who have a lot of those same kind, you know, have those same kind of problems. I'm not validating any of those claims. I'm just saying, you know, people tend to like science when they do and they tend to not when they don't.

Yes, certainly the, the, the, the interaction between faith and science on the issue of creation and particularly evolution has, has been a significant touch point.

It actually is a, is an interesting thing because the church, Christianity has historically had a much, much more positive relationship to science than looking at that one particular issue would suggest.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:38

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Perry, you have anything to add from your perspective?

David Perry: 00:11:42

Yeah, so speaking of, you know, more theologically conservative churches, because at that's historically I've attended those churches, I think a big part of it is what authority we give to scripture in science. We say if you torture the data enough, it will confess.

Well, I think you could maybe say the same thing about scripture in a sense that if we torture our interpretation of scripture enough, we can eventually get it to fit with science. And I think that's why some denominations, you see, they don't have much of a conflict with modern science.

And then others, at least on a surface level, it appears that there's more tension there. I think a large part of that is the authority that we give to scripture in our different denominations.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:32

Well, I think I agree with both of you, but I had another thought too that I just kind of wanted to propose. Hypothesis that, that you guys can maybe tease out or tell me I'm dumb or, you know, whatever.

I kind of wonder if part of it has to do with as a culture, a lot of modern culture kind of worships science, so to speak.

And you know, for both good and bad reasons, I think the church kind of got jealous of that because, you know, the good reason being worship only belongs to God. But then I think some of it is. For a long time, religious groups were the ones with the power.

Now all of a sudden, oh, those are the silly religious people. Really what we care about is science. So I think there's kind of a.

Both sides of like the good desire that hey, we shouldn't worship these things, we should worship God. But then also maybe a little bit of jealousy also. Do you think I'm Crazy or do you think there might be some truth to that?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:13:26

I think jealousy is not the word that I would use so much as nobody, nobody appreciates being considered stupid.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:34

Yeah.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:13:35

And being looked down upon for what they think, doesn't matter who you are, that's never going to come across well.

And so when belief in the authority of Scripture is considered to be something that is rural, uneducated, you know, something that only ignorant, superstitious people would hold, there's an elitism that, that rubs people the wrong way. And, and so I, I think that's a significant factor in it. And, and also sometimes, perhaps even perhaps a lack of confidence.

So, uh, a feeling of being threatened. Right. Uh, whether it's, whether it's culturally or even intellectually.

Uh, and, uh, and, and not being able to react from a place of confidence that says, look, here's here, you know, here's the history of this.

We know there's a debate here at this point, but we have confidence that this is going to work out and ultimately it'll work out in a way that will, that will show that what Scripture says is true.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:45

If I'm understanding you right, kind of see that in myself sometimes.

I know there have been points where I've talked to theologians and they start using these like long Latin phrases and I kind of want to just argue with them because I'm like, I feel like they're just trying to make me feel dumb. And that means they're wrong because a visceral internal reaction.

And same thing with scientists, you know, they start using these big, you know, five syllable words, talking about the cold, and I'm like, no, it's not true. You know, and it's like, really, I'm just upset that they made me feel dumb. But yeah, may. Maybe it's a, it's a me thing.

I know in those instances it is. I need to pray through it. But I, I think I can see, see your point. Like a lot of times, not just the church, we see it in our politics too.

If one side makes everybody feel belittled or act elitist, they typically get voted against. Yeah. Dr. Perry, anything to add to that?

David Perry: 00:15:36

Yeah, so I think on one level there's, there's a little bit of jealousy because I think science is an authoritative interpretation of events today. And one could extend that to a scientism, a materialistic point of view versus the Christian worldview.

know, Darwin's theory in the: 1850

Well, you know, after that, Christianity sort of gets kicked to the side and, you know, look is looked upon as irrelevant. It's not an authoritative lens anymore. What are we. Because we, we all have a worldview.

We might not want to admit that, but we all have some lens that we look through to interpret events around us.

When you kick out the, the Christian worldview, when it gets put aside, something else is taking that place, and it's usually either something like materialism or the postmodern worldview is quite popular today as well.

So, yeah, I think in the sense that we all want our worldview to be the authoritative one, there's some element of us that, hey, why doesn't the rest of society see things the way we see it?

But I think a lot of that, you know, at least surface level conflict we see between Christianity and science, it's usually because we're, we're not seeing one as correctly as we should. And I think science, oftentimes we're not seeing science for what science is actually saying.

I think that's as common as, you know, our errors in interpretation of scripture.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:18

Yeah. Well, since this is the Church Unity podcast, I'm going to touch on something you said, especially with the Scopes, the Scope Monkeys trial.

There really is a huge difference there. I still, for me, I think that is one of the biggest elements in this.

Because even if we're just looking at the church internally, forgetting the outside world for a moment, before that trial, you saw a lot more papers and stuff where Christians across the aisle were willing to work with each other, even if one was a creation evolutionist and one was a young earth, whatever, you saw more of that. And across the world where that trial doesn't affect people, you do see more people working together, even if they disagree on this thing.

And I'm not saying that this doctrine isn't important. I think it's extremely important.

It's just one of those where you can definitely tell where that one case where it kind of changed the culture here in America has also impacted our ability to have unity together. I guess peace. Maybe Peace is a good word. Words sometimes. Yeah. Anyway, I do want to go ahead and move on.

We do have a segment we're doing with everybody that TJ's supposed to do because I'm bad at this kind of stuff. So we'll see what happens. We're gonna ask all of our guests to step into the whole church lab.

I'm gonna ask you a series of rapid science adjacent questions, alternating from four different categories we got biblical, religious, everyday, mythical, and just kind of tell you guys what you guys tell us. Tell me what you think. As much as we can get through in five minutes, I'm sure it won't be all of them. I'll alternate.

So you're not both answering the same questions, but let. Dr. Perry, you go first. So here we go. Let's start with this.

Which micro and macronutrients would manna have to have for the Israelites to survive on it alone for 40 years, as described in the biblical tale? And how many calories would they need to consume of manna?

David Perry: 00:19:09

Well, you would need some source of calorie, and I think manna. I don't know what his composition is, but I'm thinking there's a lot of carbohydrate there. So you'd have a calorie value there. You would need.

And if it's manna alone, because our bodies can't make vitamins and essential minerals, we would need some intake of those. So a calorie source, vitamins and minerals, you know, calorie intake a day. I don't know. I don't know what our recommended.

I'm not up enough on the nutritional literature to even know what our recommended calorie intake is on a daily.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:45

And they're moving a lot too, because they're out in the wilderness just wandering. Probably a lot. Probably a lot is there. Okay, next category. This is religious. I'm trying to figure out which one I want to do here.

All right, well, we'll go with this one. Dr. Phillips, what's the best scientific metaphor for the Christian concept of the Trinity or the Hindu idea of Brahman?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:20:09

Well, I don't have a lot to say about the Hindu idea of Brahman, but I can talk a little bit about, about the idea of Trinity. So there is no analogy. That's perfect. Right. Analogies, by their very nature. Break down.

The best analogy is actually a legal analogy, and it's property ownership. So you can have multiple people who own a single piece of property.

And in our modern world, we can think of intellectual property that actually allows three different people to have full ownership and use of the same piece of intellectual property fully and simultaneously.

In terms of science, probably your best, your best analogy is it is probably going to be the water ice, steam, which at a certain temperature and pressure can both. Can all three coexist simultaneously. It, that is, that is a metaphor that, that actually breaks down quite a bit more quickly.

But, but, you know, it's a, it's, it's a metaphor. And, and, and what, what all of them are trying to do.

And, and this is why any science or historical or cultural metaphor is going to have problems is because we're trying to describe something that, that, that language fit to describe finite creaturely reality is going to have trouble describing directly because it's transcendent and not finite. And so that's, that's the challenge.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:43

All right, next up, Dr. Perry. If Medusa's hair were composed of living snakes. So we're in the mythical, mythical topics here.

How would their muscle movement and behavioral patterns affect the probability of them becoming entangled?

David Perry: 00:21:59

Oh, boy. How would their muscle movements affect the probability of them becoming entangled? I'm gonna, I'm gonna bail on that one, Joshua. I have no idea.

Other muscle movements might do that.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:12

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know how, how snakes don't get tangled with themselves as it is. I don't know that much about snakes. All right, let's move on.

Next topic then. And since you bailed, I'm going to let you do the next one to one of like the household stuff.

Why do some people swear by baking soda for cleaning while others find vinegar works better?

David Perry: 00:22:31

Oh, I think if I was going to swear by one of those, I'd want to have some, some experience with them both and trying out Baker. So baking soda versus acid and just seeing for myself which ones works better.

I would want some experimental evidence before I went about one versus the other.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:53

Yeah, okay. All right. All right, we got, we got time for a couple more. I'm going to throw another one to Dr. Phillips. Dr. Phillips here. Let's go back up to.

We can go back up to religion. Would there be any way to test scientifically? Maybe you both can answer this one.

Whether or not one religious tradition's prayers were more effective than another's?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:23:18

I would think so.

There actually has been quite a bit of work done out of, out of Duke and out of Harvard, looking at more generally the benefit of prayer in the world of healthcare.

And they find that people who pray and particularly who practice prayer regularly with other people have, have, tend to have more favorable outcomes in a number of, of, of significant categories than people who don't. So that's interesting.

I assume, and I don't do this kind of work, but I would assume that based on that kind of data set, and with a large enough data set, you could actually differentiate between the, the religion of the people doing the praying and then see if there was a statistically significant difference in, in outcomes.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:15

Okay. All right, I like that. I think then I'll let Dr. Perry do the last one.

We're making everyone answer this one because it's just bugged me for a large portion of my life. What's with the beach and lagoon in SpongeBob? They're under the water. How is there a beach?

David Perry: 00:24:33

How is there a beach under the water?

Joshua Noel: 00:24:35

Yeah, yeah. I need to know. It's killing me.

David Perry: 00:24:38

Well, in. In the sense that there's sand under the ocean there. There's a beach there. It just happens to be covered. It just happens to have water on top of it.

So you got the. You got the sand there, but the water is covering the sand. So I guess it had half qualifies as a beach.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:53

All right, I guess that's gonna have to be good enough. Maybe they didn't expect it to bother me this long. Although marine biologists were the ones who helped put that show together, interestingly enough.

But that's for another time.

So before getting into some of the more specific areas that you guys want to speak more clearly to, I wanted to hear a little bit more generally with some of the areas that people believe that faith and science are intention. So there's just this generally held belief in our culture that science and faith don't coexist.

And some of the examples, if you ask people what they spit out, tends to be stuff regarding evolutionary sciences, science regarding LGBT issues, the age of the earth, how churches handled Covid a resistance to vaccines, the philosophies over abortion. You know, all these kind of things are usually what people spit out when you ask why you think faith and science don't coexist.

So just generally, how would you respond to these areas where many think the scientific community is at odds with our faith communities. Dr. Phillip, did you want to start us off with that one?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:25:58

I can. Some of them I can't speak to.

I think, you know, with evolutionary science, you have the obvious issue of a special creation of humanity in Genesis chapter at the end of Genesis chapter one, Genesis chapter two. So current debates among evangelicals right now discussing the significance of.

And whether we need to think of Adam and Eve as being actual historical individuals. I think that's actually very important, and that is a place of tension right now.

But there are interesting ways in which there are scientific arguments for a very small genetic pool for humanity as we as. As we know it now. You also have the. The Big Bang being one of the.

One of the interesting places in which theologians anticipated for thousands of years a conclusion that science has Only now come to. And, and, and one, in fact, that speaks very eloquently and points very strongly to the existence of a cause outside of the universe that is, is.

Is sufficient to cause the effect which is the universe.

David Perry: 00:27:09

Right.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:27:09

So something that is transcendent and powerful begins to sound like you're talking about God. So there's some interesting, interesting ways in which there's connection there in, in terms of LGBTQ issues.

I'm not really sure what, what the science would be, except to say that particularly as regards transgenderism and things like that, you, you, you, you actually take a look at the, at the social impact. What are what scientists would refer to as pro. Social impacts of these things.

And you, you, you, you find a lot of problems that are more prevalent in those populations than you do in the general population. So I would find that to be consistent with the, the, the biblical idea that, that these behaviors are not conducive to human flourishing.

Age of the Earth. We certainly have tension there, Covid. And vaccines.

I don't, I don't see that to be so much a conflict with science as, as I, as I do a, A conflict with the way other people are using science to, to, to drive public policy.

And so the disagreement, there is not so much a disagreement between faith and science as it is a different disagreement between faith and public policy.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:30

Yeah. And so listeners are aware. I don't necessarily agree with everything that you guys are going to say.

You guys probably wouldn't ever agree with everything I say. That's, you know, part of doing a whole church. Yeah, we're not always going to have a consistency here with LGBT stuff.

You know, personally, when I look at a lot of that information, it does seem to be that people antagonizing and going against people in those areas are what, causing some of those problems. So I don't think it's an internal issue as much as an external issue, but that doesn't solve the issue.

I will say, in general, science is very seldomly as clear as a lot of people seem to make it. They're like the science says, usually that's just not a thing. It's not like there's just science out there giving commands.

It's constantly changing and working on and. Yeah, but for the most part, I like all that. I know, Covid. I think I would agree with you. That's the reason.

Even if I don't like how churches handled some of it. Some churches handled some of it. Yeah.

I don't think, for the most part it had anything to do with them disagreeing about vaccines and more to do with policy. Yeah. Dr. Perry, same question, just in general. How do you respond to some of this?

David Perry: 00:29:34

Well, each one of those topics is like a discussion by itself, but. Oh, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:39

Oh, yeah.

David Perry: 00:29:39

Just to pick out. So.

So let's go with the LG of the BT LGBT and about the science of it, because this is one of those areas where, you know, Scripture indicates that we, you know, we have, like. On the issue of homosexuality, certainly homosexual practice is something we're not to be engaged in.

And then on the other side, we oftentimes hear the statement, born that way. Well, Paul, in Corinthians. Paul.

I forget the verse in Corinthians, but he has a laundry list of the adulterers, the idolaters, the fornicators, homosexuals, and so forth. And he goes on to say that this is what you once were, but now, because you've been washed in the blood of Christ and so forth, you no longer are.

Well, I think that's very suggestive of any of those things being able to undergo change. And we have.

I think it's one of the greatest misstatements of science that I see is the born that way argument when it comes to sexual homosexual orientation. And I think what can be said, and this is largely based on identical twin studies. That's usually a starting point. Then it goes from there.

Are there genetic factors involved? Could one say that there's maybe a predisposition? I think that would be fair. Is a homosexual orientation a genetic fatalism?

I think fairly clearly not.

I mean, I have a statement here from Michael Bailey, who's a psychologist at Northwestern University, done a lot of work in this area, and he says, based on the evidence of twin studies, we believe that we can already provide a qualified answer to the question, is sexual orientation genetic? He says that answer is probably somewhat genetic, but not mostly so. So, again, I think it's pretty clear from science that it's not genetic fatalism.

Now the question is, can it be changed? Mark Yarhouse and Stanton Jones have done a lot of work in this area. Is change easy? Absolutely not.

And I'd say it's exceedingly difficult from what they've found. But is it possible? Anyone can say so. And they've looked at factors of those who have successfully made a change.

Number one, those who have to want to change. And number two, do they have the support of a household of faith? That's a really critical parameter.

So I think our churches should be welcoming of homosexuals and others because we're we're all sinners at the foot of the cross and. But is it something that's changeable? Well, I think the data show us it is. It's not, not easily at all, but. But it is something that can be changed.

Paul suggests that in Corinthians and the science. Yeah, I think it's pretty clear. Maybe some genetic predisposition, but certainly not a genetic fatalism.

But that born that way argument, I think science has thoroughly debunked that, although you don't hear it now. Michael Bailey would say that he thinks it's something that's still biologically caused, although we don't know what those factors are.

And environment's going to play some role in there as well.

On the topic of evolution, I think the, well on one hand the topic of the age of the earth plays in there because if one is a young earth creationist, right away you're ruling out any sort of longer term evolution that's not in your playbook. It's not worthy of consideration if one is a young earth creationist and if evolution takes place over periods of geologic time.

But I think the big one is what Dr. Phillips alluded to is when it comes to humanity, does anybody care really that birds evolve from reptiles? Well, I don't think that's a theological issue so much. But what about humanity?

Is it simply naturalistic processes that get us from some common ancestor up to humans? And if it is, how does a naturalistic process get what I think scripture indicates? What's unique about humanity? The image of God.

So if DNA is changing over long periods of time, is it simply a function of changes in DNA that gets us to these creatures made in the image of God? And if so, how does that happen?

How, how do we avoid a, a sense of monism of human beings if everything occurs via naturalistic processes versus a mind body dualism? You know, is, is our mind simply the brain or is it something, is it something extra physical in there as well?

I, I think, I think most attention with evolution is, is on that is issue of, of humanity. How do we get the humanity Covid and vaccines because again those are interlinked there. Covid.

It's still brings up all sorts of bad memories, particularly at the university environment when we were trying to teach during that time.

Science got a bad name during COVID And a large part of that, I mean I have to place on our public health officials, you know, saying, saying things in the name of science that were not actually scientifically based, you know, around the university we said six feet apart or bless your heart. Well, after the fact, we find out that there was no scientific basis, that six feet wasn't some magical number that was based on science.

Not where, where it came from, I'm not exactly sure, but it was, it wasn't based on science. We knew from fairly early on that respiratory viruses were exchanged. The infection was spread through interior environments, not outdoors.

What did we do here in Charleston right away? We closed off the beaches, we closed the county parks, the places you want people to get to outside. To prevent spread, we closed them off.

Well, during that time, if you're in a church, heaven forbid, you were a pastor, and having to deal with some people who didn't want to come to church unless everybody was wearing a mask, and others who wouldn't come to church if anybody was wearing a mask. And how do you walk that tightrope? Well, I think part of it was having a church service online. And we, we tried to be graceful for one another.

But if you were the, if you were the deacon welcoming someone at a church door, were you going to say, I'm sorry, you can't come in because you're not wearing your mask? No, no. Nobody wanted to be in that position. And vaccines, you know, I myself had two shots of the Pfizer vaccine.

I didn't, I don't have any problem with messenger RNA vaccine. But were the vaccines oversold? Yes. There were all sorts of things that were said during COVID that by scientific officials that weren't.

That didn't have much scientific basis for. And that was borne out in the churches.

And I think the other thing in the churches, that thing we call the First Amendment, the exercise, free exercise clause, does a government have authority to tell a church that they can't meet in person even during a time of a pandemic.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:37:10

Especially when they consider other things like gambling casinos or bars to be essential services?

David Perry: 00:37:19

Yes.

ng COVID we had the summer of: 2020

I mean, he, he was, he was making a point there of two sets of rules being made for public gatherings. So, you know, the time of COVID was a, Was. Was a time that science got a bad name.

And I think it's going to be a generation before science can recover its good name, because we, we have a Covid memory, all of us do.

And science was put in a position not because of the practice of science itself, but because of public officials saying things in the name of science. And then lastly, the issue of abortion, it comes down to.

It's not so much a disagreement of when life begins, because even a secular embryology text will tell us life begins at conception, fertilization. At that point, genetically, we got Homo sapiens. When does life get protected? You know, that's what we're debating.

Not when life begins, but when does life deserve protection? And, and I think any, any point you make in there, that's not a conception. It's, to some level, it's an arbitrary cutoff.

And I think it makes most sense that they. Well, life. Life deserves protection when it's. When we first have genetically Homo sapien. Yeah, life. And in any. Anything else, you know, is it.

Is it the heartbeat? Is it some sort of motor neuron sensitivity? Those aren't bad cutoffs, but to some extent they're arbitrary.

Arguments can also always be made making it at some other point. When does life deserve protection? I think that's what we debate over when we talk about the abortion issue.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:39:31

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:33

So just responding to a few of those things before we move on. When it comes to the LGBT stuff, I. I haven't seen science that seems firm on that.

Most of what I've seen has seemed like there's a lot on all kinds of different sides. And I don't think scientists, to me, seems very clear on it. But I'm not a scientist. Just what I've read. I was like, I'm not sure about it.

I do find arguments about, like, oh, I was born this way to just be uninteresting. Especially when we already have the Christian doctrine of, like, people being born sinful or with, like, a desire towards sin.

So it's kind of like, you know, that doesn't actually address the issue when you say this way. Like, that doesn't change anything about what we're talking about.

I find more interesting arguments about philosophy, psychology, what's good for individuals flourishing, scripture arguments when you're just relying, here's what it says, King James Version. That also gets on my nerves. I like the more nuanced.

We look at the Greek, we look at the Hebrew, we say, here's what this word means in context, and we talk about it. Those debates also, I just find it more interesting. I'm not. Yeah, anyway, I'll put that to the side. It's just, it's not a topic.

I feel like you can cover quickly.

David Perry: 00:40:43

See, I mentioned one more. One more connection there.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:47

Okay.

David Perry: 00:40:48

Because I think sometimes this comes down. We put Christ's words more authoritative than we do Paul's. Oftentimes. Well, when we probably shouldn't do that, but we oftentimes do.

Is all Scripture authoritative or not?

So on the issue of homosexuality, Christ didn't talk about homosexual marriage, for example, but when he was asked in the New Testament about divorce, he taught on marriage. And what did he quote? He quoted the end of Genesis, chapter one. Don't you know that he who made them, made them male and female? So.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:24

Well.

David Perry: 00:41:25

Well, Christ never addressed some things. Whenever he talked about marriage, he was talking about male and female.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:32

Well, and then verses like that also get problematic when we're interpreting it certain ways, when we know that there are more people in the world who are born with multiple different sexual organisms than there are people born with red hair. So it's like we got to find a way to address that.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:41:47

Actually, Joshua, that's not really a problem. Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:49

That.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:41:50

That is in the. That it is not for the position any. Any more. Any more than the fact that. That.

That you have people that are born with, you know, missing limbs or people who lose limbs in war is a problem for the fact that the. That the. What fundamentally it means to be human is to be a person with two arms and two legs. Right. So, no, that. That's. That.

That doesn't create the kind of problem that I think when you're trying to.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:15

Interpret the scripture as saying only male and female are born, and we know that that's just not true, that does get at least a little problematic. But I think that's a bigger discussion.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:42:26

I think you're. I think you're. You're. You're missing this. This doesn't say that only male and female are born. It says that God made them male and female.

The fundamental basic construction of humanity is into two biological genders. Right. And again, the fact that a person might be born with multiple sets is an aberration from that. Not a moral problem. Right. Not.

That doesn't mean they're. That they're not human. Right. But that is an aberration from the baseline, just as a person who has lost their leg is an aberration from the baseline.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:58

Yeah.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:42:59

Right. And so that doesn't change the moral standing of what. Of what God created marriage to be.

David Perry: 00:43:04

Yeah, yeah. Those are. Those are development, but they're. Yeah, it's not a third class.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:10

Well, this is a good evidence of why this was not Something we could cover quickly. Yeah, the conversation could just keep going on and on. Yeah, clearly, I don't quite see eye to eye with you guys on that one.

When it comes to, like, the age of the earth, science and, you know, people, all of that stuff. Yeah, I think I like what you said.

It's just one of those things I think a lot of people miss where, yeah, it might look like, oh, this isn't a salvation. You know what I'm trying to say issue. I'm struggling. But when you really observe it, it gets. It's kind of like math with building blocks.

You know, multiplication doesn't make sense without addition.

And it's like, well, once you get to this creation thing and how humans came to be, then you get into original sin, and then you get into sin, and then you get into what is salvation? And then you get into, like, who was Jesus? And it's like it all kind of builds on itself, so you can't just brush it off.

It's also not something we can quickly talk about. But I just want to agree with you that that is an important thing, especially when you consider the human bit.

David Perry: 00:44:10

Joshua. I think something like the age of the earth, while it's an interesting question, and the earth can't both be young and old.

I'm an old Earth person myself. I think in theological triage, I'm not sure it's even a third order issue.

And I think there should be room in our churches where we can disagree on the ages or that. Charleston Southern University. We have young earth creationists, we have theistic evolutionists and everything in between.

So we're not all in agreement on the age of the earth. We have spirited debates on that, but we're all here under the worship of Christ, answering our calling.

But our university does not have any official statement on the age of the earth. We recognize there's room for disagreement there while still keeping the essentials of Christian doctrine.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:01

Yeah, yeah, I think that's an important differentiation. I think it's more the issue, and there are multiple ways of answering it, but of how humans came to be specifically.

Because that's when you get into original sin, that whole chain that went over. But yeah, I think it's an important differentiation.

I don't think age of the earth has to be elevated to the same significance as when we're specifically talking about humans. I'm trying to think what else you said, the COVID stuff. Yeah, I'm with you. It really.

It really aggravated me that casinos were able to be open and Churches weren't. I didn't like what John MacArthur did because I still don't think either of them should have been open.

Just, you know, people died, including some of my family members. And I'm like, I feel like it could have been avoided if we didn't make this a political issue and made it a hey, let's survive issue.

That means that I really didn't like how they did the casino thing. It was very clearly just about money for a lot of these politicians. That irked me a lot.

A lot less to do with my faith, though, and a lot more to do with just, like, personal feelings about. About it, you know? Like, I still. I'm like, I'm with science.

I wish they would have been more honest about the science, like, what Dr. Perry was talking about. And, yeah, like, some of it made sense. Theaters are probably less dangerous.

You're not spreading stuff or talking and shaking hands as much as, like, church or a casino. Casinos are a lot of interaction. Okay. Anyway, moving back, that was just dumb abortion. I simply don't know enough to talk about.

I do know enough to know that a lot of the cases that people bring up on both sides, I'm like, man, that's just really complicated, and I can't address that. Like, there are some issues that I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. I don't want the mom to have to die because we put a law in place.

And it's actually really hard to craft laws in such a way where we are protecting all life, the mother and the baby. I'm just glad I'm not in charge of making those laws. Yeah.

Benjamin Phillips: 00:46:47

Well, I think. Fair enough, Josh. I think most. Most. Most Christians would argue that. That.

That people have a right to defend themselves, and so a mother whose physical life is threatened can defend herself. Right. But that is actually exceptionally rare. It does happen. Right. But it is exceptionally rare.

And part of the problem that in crafting such a law is. Is. Is a deliberate overreading of the defense of the mother exception. Right. So if this would harm my.

My career chances, well, that, you know, that harms my life. And so then I can. I can go ahead and do this. So if you're.

I think the challenge is if you're trying to craft a law that does make that exception, and I would argue that we should have such an exception that you do it in such a way that it actually accepts only what you're trying to accept and can't be twisted to, you know, to essentially get to abortion on demand.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:49

Yeah. And I know, we have listeners on both sides of the aisle with this particular issue.

So since we touch it, and I know that this is a dangerous thing to touch, I will acknowledge. Not saying. I just want to acknowledge. We have seen the effectiveness of laws that are preventing abortion and allowing life to thrive.

We've also seen the effectiveness of some states that have allowed laws that just benefited the mother and that helped her choose to the what I would consider the right decision. And yeah, politically, I'm just not going to give you guys an answer. This isn't a politics podcast. It's just one of those, I like life.

I think God likes life. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.

So, Dr. Barry, you work in the chemistry department at Charleston Southern, and I kind of want to get more into some of the specifics before we wrap this up.

Are there any ways that you see God in the study of chemistry and looking at creation on, like, a molecular level that maybe we wouldn't usually consider?

David Perry: 00:48:45

Well, I think one of the immediate things that comes to mind is, you know, is seeing design and things. But I. I have to be cautious because where I could see design, someone else might come in and say, well, that's not design at all.

That's just natural, purposeless processes bringing about those particular biochemical pathways or whatever. So if I could change that question just a little bit, I do see in chemistry, just like Kepler when he formulated his laws of planetary motion.

Well, Kepler's looking at a very large scale level there, chemistry.

We're looking at things that we can't see with our naked eye, but we have laws that operate there, too, or as some would call them, regularities in nature. Well, I see those laws or regularities in nature. There's constancy.

How is it that we can do experiments and get reproducibility and be able to make some sort of prediction? It's because of constancy.

So I see constancy when Paul, at the end of the first chapter of Romans talks about those invisible attributes of the Creator, but yet clearly seen. Well, how is that you can have invisible attributes but clearly see them? Well, to me, one of the ones that comes to mind is constancy.

There's constancy in the laws of nature that operate at a. On a microscopic level, just on like a macroscopic level.

And that's a reflection of the Creator, who's the same yesterday, today, or forever and forever. The. The Creator is giving us some sense of himself and what he created. So, so I think constancy is a.

Is a big one there and, and while on one hand it may be seeming like just the opposite, you know, looking at things in a molecular level, and this, this would get the touching on the topic of evolution, we see that change is possible as well. You know, like in macromolecules like DNA and things like homologous recombination during meiosis. There are robust mechanisms for genetic variation.

And what's the raw material that evolution acts on, its genetic variation. So while on one hand we have constancy in the laws of nature, and because of that, science can exist as a discipline.

We recognize that certainly these things at a cellular level and in large molecules like DNA, there are robust means for DNA to change itself.

Now, now the big question is, are there limitations of that change or over long periods of time, can we get such changes in the DNA that lead us from one organism, one species type, to another species type? That. That's where. That's where we get all the argument. But both of those things, constancy and change, and very much observable on a.

On a chemical, on a molecular level.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:42

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's interesting in a weird way, for myself, reading Immanuel Kant and how he kind of argued against some of the ontological or teleological arguments for God in apologetics made me appreciate them more. Not that I disagreed with them, but it was more of a.

The way that he had to lay them out to argue against them made me go, wait a minute, I can see why people observing the universe and that constancy you're talking about are like, there probably has to be something behind this, right? Yeah, yeah, but that's good. It's good. I like that. Dr. Phillips, I know you had some. Some stuff. More specifically, we want to get in with you as well.

The thing that really I find interesting is you have an interest in ecological ethics. Could you speak some to that and like, why. Why that interests you?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:52:34

Well, so my interest in the doctrine of creation, it also includes an interest in humanity's place in creation. All right, and so you look at Genesis, chapter one, God commands humanity to have dominion over the earth, right?

In Genesis 2, we see God commanding them to tend the garden and to subdue the wilderness. And so you think about why you have a garden, right? I'm not a big fan of gardening, personally. I hate weeding. But.

But have a garden in order to increase the bounty of the Earth, to get more crops, more food from it than you would otherwise get, or to enhance the beauty of the earth, right? A flower garden or Something like that. And you might actually get a mix out of that.

So God puts humanity in a garden to tend it, and then there's outside the garden. That garden has boundaries to it, but that humanity is supposed to extend, right, the growth. So this is called the dominion mandate.

And it presumes that humanity is supposed to have a stewardship role in creation, not the role of a tyrant being destructive and doing whatever we want to do, but under God's ownership, exercising stewardship to fulfill his purposes, which include increasing the human population and making more and more out of less and less. Right is a way in which we image God in, in creating. So what we see is that humanities have a.

Humanity has a positive role to play in creation and that humanity is not just consumers, they are creators. Right. And have that kind of a role as well.

And I look around and I see a lot of what goes on in modern ecological ethics that sees humanity more as a problem, as a virus in the body of Mother Earth, if you will. I mean, there have been distinguished ecological scientists.

s, early: 2000

Well, that's casually wishing for the death of, of what, 4 to 5 billion people.

That's, that, that is a, a fundamentally negative view of humanity that actually corresponds quite a bit more with ancient paganism than it does with, with the biblical faith. Right. And so, so my, my interest in this is particularly.

It began with how evangelicals were addressing the issue of global warming and whether or not that's anthropogenically caused. And, and then the, the way in which science was being employed in that debate. I also have an interest in public policy.

And so there, there are obvious connections there as well.

But, but that's, that's kind of my interest in, in, in ecological ethics is a stewardship ethic, not, not on the one side either a untouched, pristine wilderness value, or on the other side, a we can do whatever we want kind of kind of perspective. So that's, that's kind of how I see those coming together in terms of my interest.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:21

No, I like that a lot. I know at our last home that we lived at, I actually started.

It started with me getting butterfly bushes and then realizing that they were causing issues for butterflies. And then I had to start getting other plants so that they would Eat what they should be eating. And then they were having.

You know, I needed a place for them to have their, Their babies at. And then it was like, well, what do caterpillars have to eat? And it became like a whole ecosystem on my side. And I had like.

I learned a lot about butterfly gardens. And I'm like, man, this is complicated. And that whole practice, really, I saw a guide in all of that. I'm like, man, this is just for bugs.

You know, like, as I learned right now we're having a problem. Like, a lot of our pollinators are dying off across the planet. And I'm like, this is just bugs.

And somehow we live in a world where there's, that there's. The ocean has its own ecosystem. Everything has its own ecosystem. And it's like the. How complicated our Earth is and how much of life is here.

I just, I can't help but see God in that. Like, that's crazy. Yeah, practically.

What do you do with that as far as, like, I like the argument, but do you do anything with it as far as working with students or organizations or anything?

Benjamin Phillips: 00:57:35

So prior to coming to csu, I did, I did a lot of work with the Acton Institute for Religion and Liberty and the Cornwall in the Cornwall alliance, which is an evangelical engagement on, on environmentalism, particularly again, on, on things like global warming and, and, and public policy. On that. So, uh, affirming that, uh, that, that.

That God intends for humanity to have an intervention role in nature without claiming that all such interventions are beneficial.

I mean, we do live in a fallen world, you know, and one of the impacts of that is that we've lost access both to the model, the garden, and to, to the mentor, which would be God in terms of direct coaching and mentoring on, on how to intervene in nature in a, In a, In a. In a profitable and productive and beneficial kind of way. So I, I challenge students to be thinking about that. I've written some on that.

But, but, but part of my concern is that, is that environmental level impacts happen at the level of public policy, not at the level of, of public, performative, personal kinds of things. Now, that doesn't mean that. That individual action can't be a good thing. So for example, you know, you, you.

You getting into creating a, A butterfly habitat. Right. That, that, that engaged you quite a bit more. That's, that's a, that, that I think is a potentially beneficial kind of thing.

Getting students out from behind their screens. Right. And into nature. Right. And you know, as opposed to the, ooh, nature get it off of me. You know, kind of, you know, kind of attitude.

You know, those are some of the kinds of things that I try to encourage.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I like that a lot.

I know as I've hiked more and did the butterfly garden and all that, it's that I feel like did more to change me than it probably did to change the world. And that's, you know, where the. My, my annoying politic rant for people not giving you a side, just giving a.

Hey, the way it works isn't voting the right president. It is going to your local elections, caring about what's happening locally, because then your local people are actually.

Who influences the federal government? Your vote for president does. Doesn't usually do that much. But that's neither here nor there. Not all of our listeners are American either.

And they're like, why are you talking about this?

David Perry: 01:00:10

So.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:10

So we'll move on.

David Perry: 01:00:12

Fair enough.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:13

Yeah. I think it's important to. To point out that the system isn't as straightforward as we might think sometimes.

So, man, it's really encouraging hearing Dr. Perry talk about chemistry and hearing you talk about ecological ethics. Why don't we hear more of this? You know, you know what I mean?

Like, usually what our culture hears is Christians being mad at scientists and scientists calling Christians dumb.

And I feel like we very seldomly hear, like, you talking about ecological Ethics or Dr. Perry talking about the beauty of chemistry and that consistency and how change is important.

Like, why do we not only see the negative parts and is it possible that maybe we should just be talking more about these things and less about the other? Is it an us thing or is it a culture thing? Dr. Perry?

David Perry: 01:00:54

Well, I think a large part of what, what we're hearing is because the, you know, the, I mean, what's the major voice of the media today? It's one. Not very favorable to a Christian viewpoint and the. In the sense that we're. We're all consumers of media.

You know, what, what, what are, what are we getting barraged with on a daily basis? It's rarely a Christian viewpoint. You have to go to specialized journals and that sort of thing or tune into specialized stations.

A podcast like this if you want to, you know, if you want to get a Christian perspective on thing. It's not what the. It's not what the majority of our population is encountering.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:44

Yeah, yeah.

Well, for our listeners, I gotta let them know TJ has finally made it and Dr. Phillips and Dr. Perry are telling us why we hear, why we don't Hear as much of this like positive interaction between faith and science. And we usually hear scientists calling Christians dumb or Christians arguing about really specific things that are science adjacent.

TJ Blackwell: 01:02:07

Yeah, yeah, it's because the hosts are always late.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:10

Oh, it's because of tj.

TJ Blackwell: 01:02:12

Yeah, yeah, it's been this whole time.

Benjamin Phillips: 01:02:18

Well, I think we also get cut off from our history. Right.

You know, a lot of, a lot of people don't realize that, that, that, that the Protestant turn towards a more literal biblical hermeneutic was actually one of the best things that ever happened to science.

It actually won space for science to look at the world in a different way than the way that any pre moderns looked at the world, whether they were Christian or not.

You know, we, we, we, we, we miss the fact in, in history, for example, that, that, that when the Big Bang theory comes out, all of the most negative reactions to it were from atheistic philosophers and scientists as opposed to believing philosophers and scientists. Right. Because, because as one, as, as one scholar put it, this is too much like. Right.

And, and, and, and so rather than taking an, with that kind of thing, rather than taking an attitude of, of where we disagree and recognizing both the constancy of nature as Dr. Perry has, has, has indicated, but also the, the fact that, that the vast majority of scientific theories have actually fallen by the wayside as new and better theories based on better information, more information, better experiments and so forth.

Come along, you know, can, can give, can win us some space to look at a lot of these arguments and to say, keep working on it guys, you'll get it figured out, you know, and to deal specifically with the ways and places where scientism as opposed to science is used to attack a fundamentally Christian worldview. And I think, I think those are the places where we have to engage. Right.

And other places where, you know, there are other places where that's really not at stake. And we can say, you know what? Yeah, our best reading of scripture says this, our best reading of nature says this. But you know what?

God wrote both books and God doesn't contradict himself. And so when both are ultimately understood rightly, we'll find out that they don't in fact disagree.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:36

Yeah, and we've seen times where we figured this out because we were misinterpreting the Bible or reading it in a way that maybe wasn't genuine.

And we've seen a lot of places where the science was wrong, you know, and we learned more and figured stuff out as we go just for, for some fun, some fun tidbits for people before TJ asks us about practical actions because I've talked too much. But the just little bits of information, we're not going to dig into it. I'm just going to leave a grenade here and then walk away.

The Southern Baptist Convention did change its beliefs on abortion because of science. It is against abortion for those wondering currently. And also fun one is the Scope Monkey trial.

A lot of Christians were against evolution at that point.

Not because of original sin and all these other doctrines, but because a lot of people who were for evolution were also arguing for, you know, genocide and eugenics. Yeah. So yeah, you know, history helps us understand and contextualize some of this stuff sometimes. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:42

So there is one thing we like to do before we wrap up after this long episode, I'm sure, is to ask our guests to provide a tangible. But we like to ask our guests to provide a tangible action to engender Christian unity, church unity and just something.

What's something our listeners can do right now to help engender that unity?

Benjamin Phillips: 01:06:09

Well, one of the things that I would suggest is, is to become a little bit more familiar with, with historical interpretations of Genesis.

The we, we, we kind of make the assumption that, that a young earth, you know, literal reading of Genesis, which is, which is the view that I hold is, is the uniform view throughout church history. And it's, it's actually not. You had church fathers that, that, that thought that Genesis pointed towards an instantaneous creation.

Others that, that thought it was a seminal idea. So it's like a seed planted that, that unflowered.

And there were others who read it much closer, though not identically to the way that, that a literal 24 hour a day young earth creationist today would read it.

Being aware of that, I think particularly in some people that we, that, that we look at as, as heroes of the faith and some of the greatest Christian thinkers who ever lived, like Clement of Alexandria or Cyril of, of, of, of Cyril the Great, Cyril of Alexander's who I'm thinking of, you think of, of Basil or Gregory of Nazianzus. You think of, you think of Augustine. Right. They hold this whole range of views.

I still come down where I come down on that as a literal 24 hour day not a kazillion years ago.

Understanding, but recognizing that there's a lot to think through here and there's some very good and godly people who believe in the authority of scripture who have read this in some different ways is helpful.

Joshua Noel: 01:07:55

Yeah. What do you think?

David Perry: 01:07:57

Yeah, I would say, you know, Particularly as evangelicals. You know, there was a book written several decades ago now called the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.

And the scandal was that there wasn't one, that there was an evangelical mind. And I think oftentimes as evangelicals, we tend to be very experiential in our Christian faith. It makes me feel good.

I get certain emotions stirred up and we probably don't give enough attention, as the early church fathers did, to the truth of Scripture and examining it with the benefit we have today in light of science and using science to help us better understand Scripture and vice versa. As Dr. Phillips mentioned, science owes to the Christian faith a debt for giving us the discipline of science.

It was born out of a culture and out of an understanding of a rational God whose universe acts in rational manners. And we can understand that through the discipline of science.

So I think as evangelicals in particular, we need to reclaim the exercise of our mind being transformed by the renewing of our mind, as Paul said. And I would say also Paul in Galatians, right after he tells us, don't be weary and well doing.

He says, therefore do good to all as we have opportunity and especially to those of the household of faith.

I think that's all to say is that when we're discussing these topics, oftentimes ones that can be controversial and oftentimes ones that, you know, on some I think we concede some ground. Others we probably don't want to.

When we're talking to brothers and sisters in the faith, be it, you know, we have an extra, an extra commitment to discuss like we're, like we're talking to Christian brothers and sisters, as we should, as Paul said, be, be, especially to those of the household of faith. I think that's something very simple but tangible that we can do amongst Christians when we're discussing these things.

Benjamin Phillips: 01:10:30

If I may, I would also point out we've spoken a lot to evangelicals in this, but evangelicals aren't the whole of the church.

And I think I would also want to encourage my brothers and sisters who aren't evangelicals to say, look, evangelicals are trying to take seriously the authority of Scripture. They're trying to read it for what it says. Whether or not we always do so successfully. That's, that's, that is our attempt.

And, and, and it is a, it is a heritage of the historic Christian faith, not unique to evangelicals, to take the authority of Scripture seriously and to see it as that which shapes our perception of everything else.

And it is that very fact, whether it was among the Church fathers thinking about issues like slavery and how we treat the dispossessed and the homeless, or whether it was from the reformers thinking about the authority of Scripture over against received tradition or evangelicals today.

The advances that have come both in theology and in, in the understanding of the world have often come from people who have taken the authority of Scripture seriously and wrestled with it rather than dismissing it as, as, with, with, with, with, with, with simple readings that, that, that, that, that denude it of its reference to reality and to the real world.

So taking the authority of Scripture seriously is in fact something that is very helpful and shouldn't be shorted for the sake of a current scientific understanding.

Joshua Noel: 01:12:24

Yeah, I really appreciate how you worded that too. I know you and Dr. Perry being part of SBC College and Churches definitely do a more literal reading of the Bible inerrancy kind of stuff.

I shy away from some of that. Where I get aggravated though is a lot of Christians who just don't take the authority of Scripture seriously at all.

Like, oh, because I'm not going to say it's literal, that means I don't have to take it serious. That's not the case. I think if you're a Christian, you have to take the authority of Scripture serious.

And we might mean different things by that, but you got to take it serious and you got to wrestle with all these things together. I don't think you can ignore any of it.

TJ Blackwell: 01:13:05

So what do you think we would see change in our world if we both or all of us did both understand Genesis historically and commit to being more open to conversing with our Christian brothers and sisters? What changes? How does that, how are we unifying?

David Perry: 01:13:28

Yeah, I would say we can at least unify on some of the things that are more non essentials. The scholars tell us there's at least 10 different ways to read Genesis chapter one.

And Martin Luther himself kind of threw up his hands and said, everybody and their brother has a view on Genesis chapter one. Where can we go with that?

Joshua Noel: 01:13:50

Amen.

David Perry: 01:13:51

Well, we have all these different understandings today and it's like, pick one and you can finally find one that agrees with your, your particular view. Well, you know, one of, one of my Old Testament colleagues here at CSU suggested a book for me to read years ago.

It's called Genesis Unbound, a provocative new look at the creation account. And that author, who's an Old Testament scholar, takes the approach that Genesis is historical narrative.

And it's, I think in science, you know, we have an approach called Occam's razor. Don't add complexity unless you have to. You know, probably the simplest interpretation is correct unless we have indications otherwise.

I think that's useful for a reading of scripture as well.

Add complexity if we have to, but oftentimes the most straightforward reading of it is probably the correct one unless there's good reason, unless context gives us reason to understand it otherwise. And how do we best interpret scripture? Well, use scripture to interpret scripture. I think we can get a long ways with that approach.

I think doing so some of these things like age of the earth, which I think is a non essential doctrine of the Christian faith, I think we can at least find unity there. On something that, you know, on the topic of evolution, it gets more the nature of our humanity, I think that one's more difficult.

But you know, amongst Christians who are scientists, even amongst the, with such contrasting views of theistic evolution versus young earth creationists, there, there are still statements and there are published statements on this where even those groups, they, they agree on central elements of the Christian faith that God is creator, although they disagree on how God did the creating. Even there, there's the fundamentals they still agree upon. Let me a lot of room for unity there.

Benjamin Phillips: 01:15:56

Yeah, let me throw a quick sketch at you here. Right, so Dr. Perry mentioned third order there. This is issues, this is called theological triage. Right? There are first order issues.

These are the things that are necessary for the coherence of the gospel. Right. If you, if you get this wrong, you blow up the gospel.

It, that's the boundary marker between being Christian and not Christian, between orthodoxy and heresy. There are second order issues that affect how we live out the faith together.

Whether, you know, whether we can, you know, be in a beat, you know, plant a church together. Right. Or our witness in the world. Third order issues are issues of opinion, right. You, you say tomato, I say tomato. You know, let's go eat barbecue.

Joshua Noel: 01:16:39

I want to take a crack at your question too real quick D.J. because I, I think Dr. Phillips answer can help us with that Genesis thing.

I, I think if we, we read in Unity, you know, read Paul Tillich on Genesis, read Augustine on Genesis, read Calvin on Genesis, you know, Tim Keller is a really interesting one of Yahoo. And even if you don't change your mind, I, I think it'll help what I think we'll see change the question.

You know, I think progressive Christians might be able to see, wait a minute. Some of these more conservative Christians aren't trying to, you know, don't hate science.

They really love the Word and are trying to make sense of this thing. Right. And some of our more conservative Christians could say, wait a minute, there are other ways that people have looked at this.

And progressives don't just hate the Bible, you know, and maybe even if we don't change our minds, doing as he suggested can at least help us respect one another. And I think that level of respect can bring a form of unity that Jesus spoke about.

That is what we're supposed to be known by when the world sees us, that love for one another.

TJ Blackwell: 01:17:43

Mm. So lots of good advice in that. A lot more than normal having two guests and also host input. So take that one and run with it.

But before we do our outro, we always like to do what we call our God moment. And we just talk about a moment in our lives recently that we saw God in, whether it be a blessing, a challenge, moment of worship, whatever it is.

And I always make Joshua go first to give the rest of us time to think. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 01:18:14

Yeah, I have a lot. My wife had a appendix removed recently, and we just have a lot of other stuff going on, just in general, personal stuff. I don't want to list it all.

It'll take too long on a long episode. And it's kept me from being able to go to theology beer camp with TJ and some of the other guys this year.

And it made me sad because I like the people there. Even if I don't always agree with everybody, I love these people. And it just. It made me sad to have to send the text like, hey, we're.

I'm not going to be there. TJ can still represent our podcast, but not I. And instead of just getting like, oh, man, that sucks, and then no one responding, I got so much love.

And even, like, Tom Ord, who was on another thing that I wasn't even on was like, hey, I heard you're not going to be at this event, and I'm sad I won't see you. And you guys know who have listened to the podcast for a while. Tom Ward and I have disagreed every single time he's on anything with me.

But the fact that he still reached out with that love is just, man. Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, man, the whole church. There we go. Yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:19:18

That is the whole church. I told him that while we were talking about Minority Report, the movie.

Joshua Noel: 01:19:23

So you're the one who told us. I didn't even know who told him. I was like, he just knows.

TJ Blackwell: 01:19:28

But I will go next. My God moment. Today I was late because I buried my great Uncle Calvin. And it was really.

It was awesome just to see, like, how much of an effect a godly life can have on somebody because I made a mistake, showed up a little late because I went to the wrong church. I was like, 10 minutes late.

Joshua Noel: 01:19:54

That's a little.

TJ Blackwell: 01:19:54

It happens. It was pretty funny. I thought it was pretty funny, but because I drove to where the church we buried him at. Not mind you, it's. Whatever.

So that was funny. But I get it there. And the back row closest to the door is full of people that I've never seen before ever. Which. Not that unreasonable.

My family's huge. They could have been related.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:18

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:20:19

No clue.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:19

That's true.

TJ Blackwell: 01:20:20

So I sit down, and then while pastor's giving his little sermon, before he starts the sermon, really, there's a little Waffle House coffee cup on the podium. And it's because the people in that back row were the Waffle House employees from the Waffle House that Calvin went to almost every day.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:42

Man.

TJ Blackwell: 01:20:44

And they brought him one last coffee for his funeral. It was like 10 of them.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:51

Wow.

TJ Blackwell: 01:20:52

That was awesome.

Joshua Noel: 01:20:53

That was so cool. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:20:55

Yeah, that was really cool. So who wants to go first?

Benjamin Phillips: 01:20:59

Dr. Perry?

TJ Blackwell: 01:21:01

That's who wants to go first. Do you have a God moment for us?

David Perry: 01:21:04

Yes. One is relatively recent, and when you say God moment, I want it to be one that I absolutely know that was God acting there.

And that involved a church I had been going to because of things in my family. It turned out to be a very difficult situation. It's a church that I wanted to continue going to, but it just wasn't working out for my family.

And I was in a bit of a predicament because I did have some allegiance to the pastor there, but it wasn't working out. And as I was praying about that and.

And the reason I. I can confidently say was a God moment, because God answers prayers in ways we don't expect at all. And I'm. I'm praying for resolution. And. And God ends up providing a way out for me that I never would have expected. I'm. I'm just. And when I.

When I was having a discussion with one member of the church that day, I'm. I'm. Is going through my mind, God, you. You're.

You're providing a resolution to this problem of mine, but this is not the way I. I thought this was going to be resolved. So that. That was. That was a God moment for me. Just God answering prayers in a, in a way I would have never dreamed.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:33

Praise God. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:34

As he does.

Joshua Noel: 01:22:34

Great.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:35

As he does.

David Perry: 01:22:36

That's cool.

TJ Blackwell: 01:22:36

Dr. Phillips.

Benjamin Phillips: 01:22:40

I spent 10 years in the Houston area as a professor for Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and I directed our undergraduate program in the Texas prison system. We were training long term prisoners to be missionary pastors inside the prison system.

And most of these guys were guys that we never thought would get out because of the sentences that they had and the amount of time that they had to serve. But I got to go back to Houston for a conference and 10 of my former students in that program were there. They had been released.

The prison system had even reached out to several of them to actually come back to prison and serve as chaplains and to do ministry inside the prison system and to see how God can take the worst of the worst and turn them into guys that I would have in my home, that I would love to have as neighbors who are all of them involved in ministry and several are on staff.

Serving as pastors in local churches is just to me is one of the greatest proofs that the gospel is real, that God really does, really does save people and transform them. And so that was just, that was just an incredible encouragement for me.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:19

Yeah. Praise God.

TJ Blackwell: 01:24:20

That's awesome. Oh, yeah. Love to hear it. So if you like this episode, if you didn't like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with an enemy.

Share with your cousins. I saw most of them.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:31

Especially your cousins. Yeah, especially little business cards to hand out.

TJ Blackwell: 01:24:36

Yeah, I, I have not for this, apparently. Yeah, yeah. You can leave a one time tip. You can get free extras. You can buy our merch.

You can become a monthly sponsor or a member of the whole church. On our fourth wall site, we're moving away from Patreon. It is in the show's description. Check that out.

If you feel like supporting us with your wallet and not just your ears, we would appreciate it. It is not necessary.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:58

Yeah, yeah, we're poor. But it does help. There's also free, free tier over there. We, we occasionally put free stuff up. We got a free episode up there right now.

You guys go, go check out over there. There's like a little segment we did with. Was it Ernest Lucas? Dr. Ernest Lucas.

He writes a lot of Bible commentaries, but also used to be really into science. So, you know, we did a little thing with him before we started this series and pretty cool. Got a surprise cameo from Dr. Peter Beck in there too.

Yeah. Also check out other shows on the network. Let nothing move you. Christian Ashley, Kung Fu Pizza Party. Brandon Knight, Systematic Ecology.

TJ and Dr. Ord at one point talking about Minority Report. Probably. Before or after this comes out? I don't know. I don't know how schedules work.

TJ Blackwell: 01:25:45

Yeah, he's the one who puts them up. So we hope you enjoyed the show.

Coming up in this series, we'll be speaking with Dr. John Pol about his work on the microbiome and his book, A Theology of the Microbiome. After that, we're going to have on Rachel Jordan, marine biologist, diver and author of if the Ocean Has a Soul.

Then we'll have on Dr. Shailene Kendrick, an expert in neuro relational and spiritual integration. And then at the end of season one, of course, Francis Chan will be on the show. Show, maybe.

Joshua Noel: 01:26:11

Yeah. He doesn't know about it, but no.

TJ Blackwell: 01:26:14

One'S invited him on yet.

Joshua Noel: 01:26:17

He'll agree to it? Yeah, for sure.

TJ Blackwell: 01:26:20

We'll start season two.

Joshua Noel: 01:26:22

Yeah, of course.