"Christian Podcasters": Understanding the Backlash Against LGBTQ Conversations

TJ Blackell: 00:00:37

Second Peter 2, 10b 16 in the Christian Standard Bible says bold, arrogant people. They are not afraid to slander the glorious ones.

However, angels who are greater in might and power, do not bring a slanderous charge against them before the Lord.

But these people, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, slander what they do not understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight.

They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery that never stop looking for sin. They seduce unstable people and have hearts trained in greed. Children under a curse.

They have gone astray by abandoning the straight path and have followed the path of Balaam, the son of Bozor, who loved the wages of wickedness, received a rebuke for his lawlessness. A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

Just before this brickview of scripture, the writer was warning about the presence of false teachers and heresies in the church that would seek to take advantage of people and cause others harm. After the author speaks about the true prophecies of Jesus, return and ultimately hope in full.

The letter of Second Peter seems to be an attempt to help followers of Jesus know which words are trustworthy and which words are harmful. Josh Patterson how do you think people of faith can best discern a harmful teaching from a reliable teaching?

Josh Patterson: 00:02:14

Yeah, I mean, I guess I would want to give the kind of standard Christian answer and say we go to the fruits of the spirit and we can test things against. Against those, you know, so, so there's that.

But also I think maybe if we even go before the fruits of the spirit, maybe something a little bit more important would be the teachings of Jesus. So if we filter something through the lens of Jesus and it doesn't look like or resemble Jesus, then it's probably not great, at least as Christians.

And then finally maybe one that's a little bit more obscure, but I think important is flourishing.

There's a really great book called the Sermon on the Mount and Human Flourishing by Jonathan T. Pennington, and he argues that the Sermon on the Mount is about flourishing. And so I think those three things, Jesus, fruit to the spirit and flourishing, could be good tools for discernment.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:10

Yeah, I like that. Hey everybody, welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Probably your favorite church need podcast, and if not, it's fine. We don't hold grudges.

It's just not what we do around here. Not very unity of us. That's the only reason we don't hold a grudge. So beware. But guys, I'm Joshua Noel.

I'm excited to be here today with, of course, the reason for the season, no matter what the season is T.J. tiberious one Blackwell. How's it going?

TJ Blackell: 00:03:39

Good.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:39

Yeah. And we're joined by a very special guest. Return guest.

Good friend of both of ours, co conspirator of Theology Beer Camp and the host of Rethinking Faith. He does a lot of other cool stuff too. So I don't know, maybe there'll be a Josh Patterson website out there or there already is. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, cool guy.

TJ Blackell: 00:04:05

And he.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:05

He made a post on.

On a Facebook Christian podcasters group recently, and the responses were so antithetical to the message of church unity that we were like, oh, we'll do a whole episode on the responses that Josh Patterson got for sharing a podcast. A Christian podcast on a Christian podcast group.

Josh Patterson: 00:04:24

Weird, right?

Joshua Noel: 00:04:26

So here we are. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:04:29

So if you're listening now, you should probably check out the other shows that are on the Oz Out Podcast Network website. Link is below to check that out. Also, consider supporting us on Patreon. You could also support us through Captivate. Apple Podcasts.

There's a way to get that extra content for you no matter where you listen. Except Spotify. Then go to Patreon.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:49

That's true. Spotify just has where you just like, hey, want bonus content? Click here and it just takes you to Patreon. It's great.

TJ Blackell: 00:04:54

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:55

So convenient.

But another thing, I won't say nothing convenient just for the transition sake, but I don't know how convenient it really is, but it is a holy sacrament around here because it's impossible to have discord when you're being as silly as I like to be. So we start every episode with a silly question. Great form of unity here today is, I want to say, a relatively easy one.

Perhaps targeted to our audience and not to me. Who would be better at hockey? Ice hockey? Indiana Jones, Zorro, or Captain Jack Sparrow?

I'm gonna make TJ go first because I don't know enough to answer this question well until I hear his answer.

TJ Blackell: 00:05:35

Okay, so I'm gonna assume this is one piece Zora.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:40

It wasn't, but it can.

TJ Blackell: 00:05:42

Okay, so you spelled it right. Oh, okay, cool.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:46

Yeah, I assume I meant that the.

TJ Blackell: 00:05:49

Black cat, the Horse and the other pirate. No, but I guess Indy's not. I have some thoughts.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:55

I Just wanted like three different action heroes.

TJ Blackell: 00:05:57

That's what I was okay between these three because it was Zoro. No question. Between these three, I think probably Indy, I think Indiana Jones has the best chance at being able to play hockey.

I don't think Zorro or Jack Sparrow would have a snowballs chance in hell, honestly.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:19

Well that's good. That makes me feel better because I was also gonna say Indiana Jones, but that's just because like I've seen him with snow and cold stuff before.

I don't know if I've ever seen Jack, Captain Jack Sparrow or Zorro anywhere near snow or ice.

Although Zorro does have that like Chuck Norris effect of like somehow everything he does, he's like, oh yeah, no, I've spent 10 years doing this before, so maybe, who knows. J. Patty, what's the correct answer?

Josh Patterson: 00:06:45

I don't know. I think Zorro would be. Would bring like speed to his game. I feel like that would be his strong suit.

Indy I feel like could be a more well rounded player. Speed, skill, probably some defensive, you know, prowess. I think Jack Sparrow would be the most fun to have on my team.

But I'm biased because I love Jack Sparrow is one of my favorite anti heroes if we want to call him that. So. So I probably have to agree and go with Indy. But to be contrarian, I could also say Jack Sparrow because he's just my favorite.

Although he'd be drunk. So like if he was playing a beer league.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:27

Beer league?

Josh Patterson: 00:07:28

Yeah, like I do. Then he'd be, he'd be good to go. I'd take him.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:31

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:07:32

I just think Indiana Jones is the only one we could even get to ice skate successfully. That's fair because he's, he at least has a concept of what hockey is.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:41

Right. See I also though I, I did think about Captain Jack just cuz I'm like he does have that like random luck factor of like just picking up skates.

If for some reason just like it turns out drunken walk is the same thing as skating in his universe for some reason you never.

TJ Blackell: 00:08:00

Luck's a big part of the game.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:01

Luck is a big part of the game. He's definitely got that down. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:08:06

So for context of the actual episode, of course we're not diving deeper into why Indy's good at hockey. We could, we could, but we're not.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:16

Whole different bike.

TJ Blackell: 00:08:17

Both we and Jay Patty have recently done interviews with Brandon Robertson on Rethinking Faith. They titled it Proudly Queer and Boldly Christian. And the title for our episode was Love Over Fear.

We've both now shared the episodes in the same Facebook group, and ours mostly got overlooked. No one really cared because you love.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:42

But jpatti's Christians don't care about love.

TJ Blackell: 00:08:44

No, they don't. Jpadi's received a ton of backlash and many, many responses from the community on the Facebook group Christian podcasters.

So, jpatti, could you give us the basic lay of how your post was received and what your experience was dealing with that pushback?

Josh Patterson: 00:09:03

Yeah. So it wasn't received well. Overall. Overall. Which, I mean, to be honest, was somewhat expected.

Although I didn't, you know, I didn't think, to the extent. I thought maybe there'd be a few people that were like, this isn't cool.

And then the people who it was for would be like, oh, this is great, you know, thank you. I have this thing, but really that wasn't it. There was. I think there's about 400 comments on it, which is a lot. And most people were not too happy.

Accused me of many, many things. Yeah, it wasn't great. So like, as far as impact on myself though, honestly, it's whatever.

Some of the best social media advice I've ever been given by, I think a friend of this podcast he's been on before, Dr. Tripp Fuller, is that we don't feed the trolls. And so I tend not to let things like that on social media bother me.

Although there are times I. I slip up and give in to give in to the trolls and can be rather aggressive, which is not great. I acknowledge that.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:12

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I try not to, not to be aggressive, but I will feed the troll sometimes just so it'll get more comments and more people. Yeah. Post.

Josh Patterson: 00:10:20

I mean, that's one thing.

That's one thing that a few people have pointed out that like, you know, engaging with this post and is going to push the algorithm so more people in this group see it. Right. So you're counterintuitive to what you want. If you want to bury the episode, don't interact with it. If you want to get people talking.

That algorithm loves. Love some comments.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:42

Any.

TJ Blackell: 00:10:44

That's why people need to stop. Hate watching things.

Josh Patterson: 00:10:46

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:46

Right.

Josh Patterson: 00:10:47

It's counterproductive.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:49

There's some things that are just great.

Josh Patterson: 00:10:50

That's just a click.

TJ Blackell: 00:10:51

That's just a view.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:53

Yeah. They still get points for that, basically. No, I want to put for context too, because you mentioned there's like 400 some comments.

Josh Patterson: 00:10:59

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:00

Not just this group, a majority of groups for those who just don't know the ins and out of podcasting, you post in the hopes that maybe some people will see it, but, like, realistically, you'll get maybe one to five likes. Doesn't matter how popular podcaster is for the most part. Like, I've seen like, high name people in some of these groups.

You get one to five likes, maybe up to like three comments. That's pretty much it. Very rarely does something actually stand out like this, and it's almost never for good reasons.

Josh Patterson: 00:11:27

Yeah, it got people in their feels, I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's fine. It's whatever.

I know we're going to talk more about it, like some of the particular responses and those kind of things, but I guess one thing that I would say, just for context, is that one thing about this episode is that this was not like, if I wanted to try to convince people who disagreed with me that LGBTQ inclusion is the correct position to hold, this is not the episode I would give them. That was not the intent of this episode and nor was it really for people who disagree.

This episode specifically was for allies and queer Christians themselves. That's the target audience.

I intentionally didn't do any of the arguing about the Bible kind of stuff in this episode because I. I've done that before. Those episodes exist on my feed. People can find them. I can do the Bible arguments, I can do psychological arguments. I can do, you know, whatever.

I get it. But this episode was not for trying to convince people of my position.

It was more so to celebrate those who are already identify as queer and Christian.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:46

Yeah. Yeah, well, and that's what's so for our listeners sake, just for reference, your episode, like you said, is more. More geared towards that.

When we interviewed Brandon Robertson, we mostly were talking to him about how to better engage with people who do disagree. So not actually talking about the debate, but rather posturing for. For the debate.

And this episode we're doing currently right now, what you're listening to isn't really going to be about the LGBTQ content stuff at all.

It's purely going to be just on, like, how Christians are choosing to engage with one another online, why some of this stuff is problematic and we want to get at, like, how we can do this better. So we're not going to be bashing people for saying mean things to Josh. We're getting more to it.

I'm going to share some of the reactions and comments on here for us to talk about. I've blocked out people's pictures and last names. I am keeping first names because I want to.

To people to see, like, hey, this is like real people are saying this stuff who claim to be Christians to another person who's claiming to be a Christian.

Like, it's not even like someone who's like, I'm a Satanist and I want to show you all why God's awful and your concept of Jesus should burn in hell, you know, like, it's nothing like that at all. And that's just like, I think that's a context we all need to go into.

Later this episode, we are going to include a segment from our friend Christian Ashley, who is not a fervent, who agrees with the other side, who still is like, hey, this posturing is bad because that's what we want you guys to know. Like, that's our focus here. We're not trying to do more debates on lgbtq who. We're not trying to make people feel bad necessarily.

We just want to talk about how we should engage better. So that's what this episode is going to be primarily focused on, just the reactions. Again, usually for context, you get like maybe five likes.

That's what these posts get. This we got for your post, that's literally just you sharing the episode you recorded of a Christian podcast on a group called Christian podcasters.

You get 44 sad faces. We got 22 likes, 12 laughs, 11 hearts, six angry, four shocked, two caring emojis. Yeah. Any comments, like, were you surprised just by, like, this?

Are you surprised by, like, there's more cries than likes?

Josh Patterson: 00:14:52

I. I don't know that I was surprised, but like, I'm.

What I'm happy about with this is the likes, the hearts and the care emoji, because that means the people that this episode was for found it and that's. That was my intent. The sad thing is interesting. I mean, I get it.

Like, I think that's a more compassionate response because I can understand people who do disagree, especially if this is a salvation question for them. I can understand the sad face thing because it's like, oh, this person is actively promoting things that could prevent someone from being saved.

Obviously I don't think that, but I can understand the 44sads. The dis, the laughs are always dismissive in general.

I feel like that's how that emoji functions most of the time in social media is just like, haha, you're dumb. I'm going to hit laugh so we can reject this. You know, move on. Anger makes sense. And then the shocked faces. I don't know. That could be either way.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:55

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:15:55

You know?

Joshua Noel: 00:15:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:15:57

I do think. I think the angry face is really funny.

Josh Patterson: 00:16:00

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:02

Why?

TJ Blackell: 00:16:02

Like, I. I like to imagine that those six people did not leave a comment, and they're just like, I'm just gonna. Angry face.

Christian Ashley: 00:16:08

Just what?

Joshua Noel: 00:16:09

You know, I'm mad about it and move on.

TJ Blackell: 00:16:11

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:11

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:16:12

That is really funny to me.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:14

Yeah, I. I do. I think I agree with you with the SADs, like, the 44 SADs.

I'm going to assume best intentions, and it was just people who genuinely believe that this kind of messaging is gearing people to believe something's okay that's going to lead them to hell and burn for eternity, and they're sad about that. And I'm like, you know, if that's truly what you believe, being sad, minimal. I'm like, yeah, okay. Laughing emoji is just antagonistic.

That's people, I feel like, who's trying to poke the bear, they're really just about the conflict. And that's where I'm like, that's just not Christian. Mm. Yeah, that. That's where I'm at.

Josh Patterson: 00:16:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:51

Okay. Do you want to get to some of the. The actual comments?

I've tried to do these in stages, so we're gonna go from, like, from what I'm considering, just straight up bigotry. Then we're gonna get to, like, people who think you're a heretic.

Josh Patterson: 00:17:02

Okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:03

And then it's gonna get to, like, people who are trying to, like, engage well to different degrees of success. And then we have one positive comment. I. I found that I was like, I wanna. I wanna include some positivity here.

Yeah, there are still good people in this group too.

Also, I want to say Aaron, the founder of the group, was going to be on this episode, which had a really hard time with scheduling, and that's why we also have Christian, because we still. We want to have that other perspective. So the founder of the group, Aaron, left this up. This context, I feel like is important. Left the post up.

Even though a lot of people asked her, not said a lot of bad things and mean things to her. Even though she doesn't even agree with Josh on affirming same sex.

She just agrees with, hey, this is a Christian podcast group and we should let people post Christian podcasts here. Seems pretty obvious to me, but. Okay. All right, we're going to start with Denny. TJ and I will take turns reading these comments.

That's how we'll do this. I'll go first.

TJ Blackell: 00:17:55

Oh, will we?

Joshua Noel: 00:17:56

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:17:56

What is the next one? Six pages.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:58

Maybe you get all the.

Josh Patterson: 00:18:01

Go ahead.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:01

Denny's comment has 6 likes. Here we go. I have a podcast. It is a Christian faith based for middle school aged kids with 150 episodes thus far.

I've been considering joining this group as judging by the name, it seemed like a good fit. I thought I could learn much and or contribute to a slightly dedicated to a site dedicated to upholding God and his Word to whosoever might listen.

I thought that this group, united to the cause of Christ, could make a huge multifaceted impact on the world by bringing the truth it so desperately needs. I want to pause and first say, like, this is a Christian group. Who. Who do you think you reach other than other Christians? But okay, anyway, continue.

Until now. Now I see that Christian podcasters isn't.

It doesn't stand for truth, but is merely another outpost of the woke nonsense that not only undermines the cause of Christ, but leads others to think that things that God calls abominations are cool with Jesus. They are not. They lead to deception, play into the enemy's hands, and lead people to his door.

Jesus died a heinous, brutal death to pay for those sins you seem to think he's cool with. I'm doing air quotes for those listening. I don't know how the air quotes helps. I will not be joining this group. Thanks for making the decision easy.

And if anyone reading this actually does want to be part of a group of Christian podcasters, please let me know. But this. This breaks my heart. All right, Josh, what are your first thoughts? Reading something like this, man.

Like, how do you even start to process this? Non people throwing at you?

Josh Patterson: 00:19:33

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot here.

So like, I don't know, I can see at first that this person has good intentions in that like they're doing, I guess, ministry for young people, which is awesome. As a youth pastor or former youth pastor, I can emphasize with that. And so that's cool. Although working with middle schoolers is a choice.

I preferred high school and older, but yeah. So then. Well, once it. Once it goes on though, I take issue with the word woke being thrown around as a pejorative to me is kind of a.

What is it called? Not virtue signaling, but like. Yeah, it's a buzzword. Nothing that is just. It's overly dismissive and I don't think it's helpful. So there's that.

But I think what's sad about this to me, is that this person isn't even willing to entertain the fact that there are other Christians who disagree with them.

And instead of willing a willingness to have conversation and seek understanding, the immediate response is they aren't real Christians because they don't believe like I do. I'm going to leave and if anyone wants to join me, you know, come and we'll do our own thing.

So there's like a kind of, in my opinion, an immaturity in this stance because, yeah, it's.

It's not even willing to recognize the fact that there are legitimate Jesus loving, Bible believing Christian theologians that think LGBTQ inclusion is a faithful reading of the text. And to not even acknowledge that is sad to me.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:06

Yeah, yeah, it's. To me. The thing that really upsets me the most.

I'm trying to find good words because again, we don't want to be bashing people, but like, just how he siloed himself off where, like one, he's going to a Christian podcasters group because he thinks more people need to hear about Jesus and this is a place to go. Like, people don't join a Christian podcast group who don't at least know who Jesus is. Right. Like, first off, what.

What do you think you're actually doing?

And then second, like, oh, well, now it doesn't agree with me enough and I'm going to leave because I don't need to hear from other people's perspectives. It's like, so you. Hey.

So like, simultaneously, he's saying, I'm reaching the world by posting on this group, but also I want this group to only be Christian who very narrowly think the way that I do it. I'm like, this is just nonsensical at this point. I just don't. Yeah. Tj, any thoughts before we go to the next one?

TJ Blackell: 00:21:57

No.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:57

All right.

TJ Blackell: 00:21:58

I do not.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:59

TJ's turn.

TJ Blackell: 00:22:00

Oh, so I get three. Is that what happens here? Yes, I get to read three.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:04

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:22:04

Yeah. I knew it was something. So we have from Kyle. You can't claim to follow Christ, but have an antichrist spirit. God and Jesus aren't Burger King.

You can't have them your way. You cannot claim to know, accept, and follow our savior if you are in an open, unrepentant rebellion.

I am so incredibly disappointed at Aaron somebody that we didn't stand up against this. And then we have a response from Sandra. We're going to pretend it's Sandra oh of Grey's Anatomy fame.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:39

Sure.

TJ Blackell: 00:22:40

What exactly did Jesus say about homosexuality? And Kyle replied, that would be included in sexual immorality and adultery every single time.

Homosexuality is described in the Bible, it is considered a detectable act. Interesting word choice. Sexually immoral and an abomination.

In fact, all instances, it resulted in God destroying the practitioners or calling on others to do so.

Trying to magically convince oneself of something different and then trying to bring others along is deception on the highest level that will result in damnation.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:12

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:23:13

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:13

So, Josh, any thoughts?

TJ Blackell: 00:23:15

There's a lot going on there.

Josh Patterson: 00:23:17

Yeah. So like the whole you can't claim to follow Christ but have an antichrist spirit.

The cheeky thing that I'd want to say is be like, have you heard of Donald Trump?

Joshua Noel: 00:23:28

So many people I've been trying to tell this to. I don't know why y' all aren't listening more.

Josh Patterson: 00:23:32

That's being cheeky and not in the spirit of church unity. But neither is these people's comments. So. Yeah, so, I mean, there's that aspect.

And I do, I think I appreciate Sandra's question here because, uh, to my knowledge, Jesus didn't say anything specifically about homosexuality. And I think I do not.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's true that anytime it is brought up in scripture, God either destroys the practitioners or calls others to do so. I. I think that is not true. Fact check. Fact checkers, fact check me, please.

But this just seems to be more so a. I don't know, this person seems like they don't like gay people and are using God to justify that. Especially when you call for violence against people.

I think that is inherently antichrist because Jesus was non violent to the point of death on a cross. So.

TJ Blackell: 00:24:30

Yeah, yeah. And it is interesting. There's like, there's no sources there.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:34

Yeah, yeah, that's always fun. I. It's also funny that like he talks about in the Bible, she asked, what did Jesus say? And he's like, in the Bible as a whole though.

And I'm like, okay, but that's not the question and it's not what you originally said either. So first off, we're ignoring the fact that you were just wrong. Right? Like, can we just start with, hey, you were wrong then.

Hey, the Bible does say in other places though. But no, of course we can never start with admitting when wrong. But yeah, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

I don't want to call myself a Bible expert, but I will say I have a degree in Bible, working on other degrees in Bible and I do read it more than once a month. So like, I think I know it. Okay. At least.

And yeah, no, what happens that Kyle's referring to is like, a lot of times when you hear stories like Sodom and Gomorrah and different things in the Bible, people have retroactively decided the meaning of that has to be about homosexuality. When historically and biblically, when those stories are interpreted in the Bible, it's not about that.

And for the first couple hundred years of the church, those stories weren't interpreted that way.

So you're just retroactively reading church tradition as authoritative in the Bible and probably someone who, based on how you're writing this, is someone who thinks only the Bible's authoritative, but you're clearly relying on tradition that you're unaware of to interpret the Bible, to decide what it means when the Bible itself says that's not what it means. Okay, cool, dude. Cool story. Yeah, definitely. I'm agreeing with Josh. I think this guy just doesn't like gay people and wants a reason.

And, yeah, that's how I think they call that. Eisegesis. Maybe you're reading your perspective into the text. That kind of seems what I think he's doing.

Josh Patterson: 00:26:05

Yeah, they do do that. You're right.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:07

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll read the next one.

And this one's going to be confusing because I'm Joshua, he's Josh, and then the person who commented here is Joshua, but neither of us. So there you go. Joshua, not us, says the admin clearly supports this way of thinking. Disgusting. J, Patty replied, we do know who he is.

I can tell you for a fact that the admin does not support my views and perspectives because they have told me so themselves. You should probably relax and stop making false claims about people. If you want to be angry, be angry with me. The admin has nothing to do with it.

She's a fantastic human being. Don't talk shit. It's on the screen. We're explicit today. Don't talk shit about people when you can't substantiate your claims.

Also, funny to say shit and substantiate in the same sentence. Way to go, Josh. Impressive. If you want to trash me, go for it. It's my podcast, not the admins. Come for me. Leave her alone, Aaron. Who is the admin?

No, this is incorrect. Do not assume things. Referring to Joshua's first comment. Joshua, not me. Joshua.

And then Joshua, not us responds to Aaron says, then state as a disclaimer, you don't leave it up and allow false teaching to be taught. That's exactly what you are doing. Okay, a lot of stuff there, Josh. You're part of this conversation.

Even I love that you're just straight up, like, hey, Aaron's a good person and clearly does not agree with you. And you still. You're like, you got her. You got her back. You're in her corner.

Josh Patterson: 00:27:36

Yeah, it's not cool to see.

That's actually probably, you know, when earlier we're talking about things that most upset me, that's probably the thing that upset me the most about this is the way that the group turned on the administrators, specifically Aaron, which was not cool, and she did not deserve that. Like I said in my response, it's my podcast, not Aaron's. I'm the one that says the things, not her, and she doesn't even agree with me.

So, like, if you're going to be angry, be angry at the source, be angry at me. That's fine. We can have a conversation, but don't go after Aaron. Like, she didn't do it. Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:12

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:28:12

But I think one thing that I do want to point out about this thread, though, is that the word disgusting is used. And disgust, I find, is a very helpful category for trying to understand some of the vitriol around LGBTQ stuff. You know, discuss psychology.

Richard Beck wrote a whole book about it called Unclean. Billy Horde and her brother Paul Horde have a book coming out later this summer called you Contamination.

That's all about discussed psychology and theology that I'm very much looking forward to. So this is a very real thing. Like, to some people, the thought of, like, two men kissing or two women kissing is disgusting. It brings that disgust.

You know, it activates the disgust centers in our brains in similar ways that, like, if someone spit in a cup and then drank, it would. Or something like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:04

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:29:05

So, like, I think that's interesting to pay attention to because that is definitely a way that this influences the conversation.

So somebody's disgust mechanism can kick in, and then they can use, I don't know, Scripture or the Bible or something to seek to justify their emotional response so they're not being as rational as they think they are. And I don't want to say too much more because I'm not a psychologist and I'm not an expert on how the human brain works.

But the disgust thing is a real part of this kind of conversation that I think should be highlighted.

TJ Blackell: 00:29:37

I do think it's interesting how often, you know, when contentious subjects come up, the first call to action is to remove someone's ability or, you know. Right. Of free speech.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:49

Yeah, that's where I like my two. Two big things with this Is. Yeah, the free speech bit. Like, yes, different groups, we can set rules for it, etc.

But, like, the whole idea that you should have systems or places where you don't have to hear opinions you disagree with or that challenge you is so problematic just on its own, even without any Christian values or anything. It's like you were saying that we absolutely should never learn from others or grow. That's just stupid. Not saying that he's stupid.

That idea is stupid. And then the disgust thing, you know, of course, that's just a call for us to go watch Inside Out 1 and 2.

And I think that's important that that was left. No, but, like, in all seriousness, I do agree with Josh.

I know I have family members who probably use that word in private when talking about this stuff, who wouldn't say it publicly. So I do think in one sense, it is kind of like a societal norm that, like, oh, that stuff's icky. We used to justify stuff.

But I think publicly a lot of times when that word's used, it's supposed to be, like, belittling and make us think less of the other person in a group that's Christian Podcasters, you think you have this whole idea of imago DEI that you just wouldn't want to call the people disgusting or an idea disgusting to belittle another person. That's just so.

It's such a fundamental, you know, idea in Christianity of, like, the image of God being every single person, and then for someone in this group to use, oh, they're disgusting. You're disgusting. The idea is disgusting. I'm like, come on, man, what are we doing?

Josh Patterson: 00:31:08

Yeah, it's dehumanizing. And when you dehumanize someone, you can dismiss them. So.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:13

Yeah, and I think it's intentionally dehumanizing, too.

TJ Blackell: 00:31:16

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:16

What's the most.

Josh Patterson: 00:31:17

I agree there's intent. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:20

All right, tj, your turn to read.

TJ Blackell: 00:31:24

Awesome. Mike says homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible in between bestiality and incest. Either you condemn all three or you approve of all three.

Gross. Mike. The same Mike, I assume, says Josh Patterson once again flaunts his blatant rebellion against God and his truth.

Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible as gross perversion of God's sacred institution. Institution of marriage. Brandon Robertson is a wolf who hates God and hates Jesus.

Josh Patterson presenting him in such a blasphemous way shows he is also a wolf. Enough of the worldly pretend Christianity that is anti Bible, anti gospel, and antichrist.

May Josh and Brandon repent and believe the true gospel before they wind up in hell making out with each other, as wolves are known to do. Kenneth says this is blasphemous heresy. Sorry, but God calls us an abomination. Repent all caps and be saved.

And Jamie says both of you need to repent and turn to Christ.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:25

Yeah, the make out in hell things. Josh, really want to make sure we got that one.

Josh Patterson: 00:32:30

This is my sounds personally, my favorite. My favorite of the comments because it's so. It starts off all right, so first off, it's.

It makes an interesting claim that homosexuality is condemned between bestiality and incest. So he's conflating bestiality, incest, and homosexuality as the same thing, which the Bible objectively does not do.

So that's just a false claim right off the bat. And it's just deeply bigoted. Like, that's kind of a classic conservative, homophobic talking point.

Oh, if you let the gays get married, then they're going to also want to have sex with animals and, you know, screw their sister or whatever. So that's just annoying. Again, there's the gross thing, you know, disgust coming back in. This guy Mike really hates me.

He has commented on my stuff in other platforms, like, not just in this group, but in other places, and likes to say this kind of stuff, that I'm in blatant rebellion against God and that I hate Jesus and hate God.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:34

The Bible does say to hate those who. Who hate me. I think something like that. Or maybe love. I don't know. Something. Same thing.

Josh Patterson: 00:33:42

So he's not. He's not a fan. But. And it's just annoying because it couldn't. It couldn't be further from the truth, both Brandon and myself.

Like, Brandon's a pastor. He works in a church and preaches, like, the, like, Jesus every Sunday. Like, that's his job.

And I run a Christian podcast, like, constantly talking about how Jesus is the thing that keeps me tethered to my Christian tradition. He's the thing that I can't seem to get away from. So there's that. But this making out in hell comment is just, I think, objectively funny.

When I read it, I laughed out loud. I read it to my wife. She laughed out loud. And I texted Brandon and was like, dude, look at this.

And his response was, whoa, Hell sounds way more fun than the hell I learned about in church growing up. It's like, it's just a ridiculous notion. And again, it's just deeply bigoted and hateful. Then, you know, blasphemous. Heresy.

As far as I'm concerned, or as far as I know, there were no ecumenical councils that denounced homosexuality as heretical. So technically speaking, it's not heresy. Abomination language, obviously is used in the Bible. We can discuss how that functions if we want.

But the repentant, be safe stuff, and also this, both of you need to repent and turn to Christ.

One thing that I thought was interesting that came up kind of implicitly in these comments, but more explicitly in others, is people were also assuming that I was gay, which shows that they didn't listen to the episode or take any time to get to know me. Which is fine. People can think what they want. I don't care if people think I'm gay. I don't have a problem with that.

But that I think is an interesting thing as well, that they just assume, like, oh, because Josh is supporting LGBTQ people, he himself must also therefore be within the LGBTQ community. So, yeah, there's some thoughts.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:39

And how many people respond who just clearly did not listen to the episode.

Josh Patterson: 00:35:43

Is why 85 to 90% of the comments? Maybe. Maybe more. Maybe I'm being generous.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:49

Yeah, just that. That part alone is crazy.

But then, yeah, again, like, Mike's doing this dehumanizing thing again, which runs contrary to Mago Day, runs contrary to everything Jesus and God is about. Like, this is supposed to be a Christian podcasters group. I think disagreeing is okay. Dehumanizing and ignoring the image of God and others.

It's not maybe.

Josh Patterson: 00:36:08

And Mike is a pastor. This is verified information. I have a great stuff. I don't think they'll care because this is a public act that they did.

But my buddy Keith, he comes to theology beer camp. He actually went and wrote a Google review of.

He found the church that Mike teaches at and wrote a Google review expressing his discontent for the head pastor's behavior online and how they treat others they disagree with and dehumanize them. So shout out to Keith.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:38

Yeah, well, also, like. Like, that could be seen as petty or funny, but I also feel like that's just like, an honest thing to do.

Like, I think we should warn people about pastors who behave this way because, like, they're not being very Christlike. Yeah. Although I keep things just kills me.

Josh Patterson: 00:36:55

It could backfire and serve as, like, oh, now I want to go to this church, because I agree with that. So it could also have that kind of effect. It could have gained members to the church. So Mike should be thankful to Keith as well.

TJ Blackell: 00:37:08

Yeah, he's Also straw manning.

Josh Patterson: 00:37:10

Oh very much so, yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:37:12

Straw man logic.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:15

Logical fallacies are great. No, but I would say like the Bible calls us to call to like judge by fruits and stuff.

And I very seldomly want to say someone is or isn't a Christian because I don't know their hearts, I don't know their beliefs whatsoever. Stuff like this where they're trying to dehumanize people attacking someone else. This is clearly like a Christian would not do this.

So like this is where, this is the kind of thing where I think when we see someone's heart put out, like this is when you call someone to repent, not when you disagree with someone's ideas. Come on, man. Okay, that's where I'm at. Next comment. Tj read that one? I think so I get to read this. I like how I timed this.

Somehow I got all the short ones. Dylan says, oh, somehow, yeah. I don't think that heresy should be promoted in this group. And it got 31 likes and hearts for that.

Gory says proudly insert sin and boldly Christian are contradictions. I don't make the rules. 63 likes and hearts for that one. So lots of people love these kind of comments.

Why do you think the crowds crowds love this one so much?

Josh Patterson: 00:38:13

I think it's just because. So the word heresy gets thrown around a lot and not just by conservatives. Progressives will throw it around as well.

And it's basically become a catch all for I disagree with you. That's what that word means nowadays. It's just, that's an opinion I disagree with. It's heresy.

And I think we should be really careful when we throw the word heresy around.

If we have, you know, spend five minutes on Google learning about what they did to heretics, it's probably, it's like a pretty serious accusation to call someone a heretic.

And then when you know, like, oh, they killed heretics, burned them at the stake and these kind of things, there's an extra layer there that I don't think is often intended. I don't think people often mean like and you should be burnt at the stake, but it's implicit in this word being thrown around.

So I, yeah, I think it's annoying if nothing else. And people like it because it's short and plethy and you know, they're like, yeah, stand up against the heretic.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:14

It sounds stronger than saying you're wrong, which is what they really mean.

Josh Patterson: 00:39:18

Yeah, yeah.

It carries some kind of like perceived theological weight to call someone a heretic and then the with the proudly insert sin and bully Christian thing. I mean, I know not everyone agrees, but my perspective would be that being gay is not a sin.

And the episode was called Proudly Gay, Boldly Christian, which was playing with his title, which is just called Queer and Christian. Oh. So my episode was Proudly Queer and Boldly Christian.

So even just the word queer, if we look at that for a second, queer just means to like transgress boundaries. And so there are a lot of things that can be described as queer. People are just assuming that word means homosexual.

And then even if we go to that, there are plenty of Christians who don't think that being gay is inherently sinful. There are some who disagree with that. You know, so just saying proudly gay isn't necessarily. I don't think that's an issue now.

Feels like you assumed that being gay was a sin and it was like proudly gay and actively doing gay stuff. I don't know. Trying to be appropriate.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:27

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:40:28

Then, like, maybe we could talk. But I. I don't know. I don't agree that homosexuality or being gay or queer in general is a sin. So that's my issue with this comment.

But I know a lot of people would disagree with me.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:42

I think they were short. Quippy is why people like it.

Josh Patterson: 00:40:44

Yeah. Short and quippy.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:46

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:40:46

That is what I was like this, like this. It sounds good because you had a good title. That's why it got a lot of likes.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:52

Yeah, yeah. But also it's.

TJ Blackell: 00:40:54

But.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:55

Oh, go ahead.

TJ Blackell: 00:40:56

My. My problem starts before we even get to the brackets. My issue is with proudly. I think if you do anything with too much pride, that's a sin.

Josh Patterson: 00:41:03

Sure.

TJ Blackell: 00:41:04

I don't.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:05

I'm not saying pride just has so many different connotations. Meanings these days.

TJ Blackell: 00:41:08

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:09

I mean, you should be proud of the work you've done. Right.

TJ Blackell: 00:41:11

Like, you should just not. But I, I do think, you know, shout out J. Cole. I think pride is the devil.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:18

All right. Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:41:19

Nice.

TJ Blackell: 00:41:20

The devil is a small group of lions or Lars. No.

Josh Patterson: 00:41:24

Yeah, shout out J.

TJ Blackell: 00:41:26

No, I do mean it.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:26

Yeah, yeah. No, I just. Just content wise, this is probably lame with me, but like, I really feel like making out in hell.

And the Burger King comment that are like, those are actually kind of funny. They deserve the likes more. Well, even if I was on that side, I'm like, come on, man. Like, I really feel like it's just because they were short.

People don't like to read lots. Why use lots word when few word do trick? You know, that's that. I think that's the concept here.

Josh Patterson: 00:41:50

But it's better. Trolling the Burger King and making out in houzz just is.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:53

Yeah, Burger King is quality trolling.

Josh Patterson: 00:41:55

Yeah, yeah. High quality trolling. This is lazy.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:58

Yeah, yeah. You heard us, Corey. It was lazy.

Josh Patterson: 00:42:02

Corey, do better.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:05

All right, what's next here? Faith, Chris, tj Faith.

TJ Blackell: 00:42:08

Ironic. She says, true heresy. I'll fix it. Asterix proudly, consistently sinning while leading others into false theology.

You can be queer and deny yourself, slash surrender your identity and follow Christ. That's re. Parenthetically. Re. Think. I'm not sure what happened there.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:32

She's trying to be happy.

Josh Patterson: 00:42:34

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:42:35

So I. I think what. What she meant to say. She's correcting your title, first of all. And then she's going on to say, you can be queer and deny yourself follow Christ.

I think she would say that's re. Rethinking Faith.

Josh Patterson: 00:42:51

Yeah, I think she was playing with my title. I actually haven't seen this one, and that actually makes me laugh. That's pretty good. Re. Rethink is funny. So well done, Faith.

TJ Blackell: 00:43:00

This. That is to be. To be absolutely clear, this is a slur.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:05

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:43:06

That she has said here. This is an abbreviation for a slur.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:11

Oh, see, I didn't catch on that either. Yeah, okay.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:14

Oh, yeah, yeah, I got you.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:17

That's a lot less clever. That's sad.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:19

Yeah, that is sad that if. That. Yeah, if that's what's going on. That is. That's not cool.

TJ Blackell: 00:43:25

Yeah, I think so.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:26

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:43:28

I think my. My thing was way funnier. Yeah, you should have said that.

Josh Patterson: 00:43:36

I. So also, I think something interesting about this one, though, is the. You can be queer and deny yourself, surrender your identity and follow Christ.

So I think I know that there are queer folk who exist. Side B Christians is the kind of language that is used to describe them that are queer and also choose to be celibate and not act on that.

So I don't want to diminish that. If that is an adult choice that somebody is making and they're doing it because they think that's what Jesus is asking of them, I can respect it.

They're an adult. I'm not going to tell them that they have to go act on their urges. Like, come on now. I think it's deeply unhealthy.

Like, psychologically, that's not good for you. But I do want to acknowledge that that is a thing. Although I don't think, like, we should be prescribing that to everybody. If that's a choice.

Someone wants to make. I'll respect it. I disagree, but go for it. I don't think you can force that on people.

I mean, look what happens with priests when you tell them not to have sex. Just saying.

Joshua Noel: 00:44:43

Yeah, I. Yeah. And it is, it's interesting. So I think there's like basically four sides.

And we talked some about this with an episode with Dr. Tom Ord and his daughter on our podcast before. I'll try and link that in the description.

But, you know, you have like that side A, Christians who think the whole identity of being attracted to other people of the same sex is just sinful because you exist.

And then you have Christians, like I'm assuming faith here, who think like, you can have that identity, have that attraction, the orientation, but acting on it would be sinful. Then you have people probably like myself, I'm not sure where Josh Patterson falls.

I think he's probably more Tom Ward, who I'm like, hey, yeah, I'm a first of all this thing, but I think sexuality, commitment, all that stuff needs to go together. I still think there's some kind of commitment, some kind of thing. It's not like anything goes.

Whereas Tom Ord thinks as long as everything's flourishing, it doesn't necessarily need to be commitment, one night stands, that kind of stuff is fine too. So there's a whole array of different thoughts. And I definitely think side B, like faith here, probably better than side A.

It's probably less harmful, but still not a fan.

Josh Patterson: 00:45:46

Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I, I mean, I think we can have. I'm not one to promote poor sexual ethics in general.

I think we can have good sexual ethics and I think it's just demonstrably true that, you know, we can have healthy sexual ethics and healthy sexual relationships regardless of the gender of our partner. I know plenty of friends that are in very healthy relationships that enjoy healthy sex lives that aren't.

You know, there's kind of this stereotype that queer folk just all do each other all the time and they're just promiscuous and similar. I mean, actually very similar. I'm hesitant to make this comparison because there's going to be someone that it upsets.

But like, black women are often characterized in the same way and dismissed as overly sexual, promiscuous, this kind of thing. And a similar kind of dismissal happens of LGBTQ people. I don't want to say that the plight of those two groups is the same.

However, this is a similar overlap that I'm seeing. So I'm be trying to be careful with My language. Um, yeah, I think that's something to. To point out and.

And acknowledge, like, hey, I can be in a monogamous. If that's what you think is right, I can be in a monogamous, committed relationship with someone of this. The same sex. And that's, you know.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:04

Yeah, just fine. Yeah. Which I will go as far as, like, I think it doesn't even have to be monogamous. I just think commitment is an important part of this stuff.

Anyway, we'll move on.

Josh Patterson: 00:47:14

Enthusiastic consent.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:15

Somehow I got a long one this time. We're gonna try and run through the next few a little bit quicker so we can start wrapping stuff up.

But, Marlena, I think this is where we get to people trying to do better to differing levels of degree. So we're getting a little away from the bigotry and hateful stuff. I absolutely love all people. Capital all.

And I love them enough to tell them the truth. Inclusion doctrine is the doctrine of demons. And this is where I'm looking at. Okay?

Repentance from sin and being washed and made brand new creatures in Christ is the only way. Praying for scales to be removed and some true repentance for those who think love equals sin. Inclusivity. Webster was right under her says.

I actually listened to this podcast, my friend. He says, my friend, a lot of. And there are quite a few takeaways. You and your guest noted you enjoy pissing people off.

Exegesis is not just about one of the possible translations, but about looking at the context for the correct translation. You said, story matters so much. To me, my friend, the Bible is the greatest story ever told, but what matters is the truth.

You both said you believe Paul was wrong about many things, including homosexuality. You can say that you disagree with him, but that doesn't make him wrong.

You also both spoke about the etymology of the word homosexual, and you said that something like the concept of homosexuality didn't exist in that time. But then you go ahead and twist scripture to include homosexuality. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I just want to encourage you, if you see this comment, to truly commit to a church community, not just attending once a month so that they are cool with you, but commit to a community and commit to growing closer to God. Finally, nobody can be a Christian agnostic. God bless you. Yeah, interesting stuff. I think they're trying to do better.

Some of their language is still very triggering, and I'm like, that's not cool. But I don't think they're just straight up attacking you. Here. So how do you respond to slightly more nuanced stuff?

Josh Patterson: 00:49:06

Yeah, yeah, I'll. Not to be dismissive of Marlena's comment, but I'm going to focus on Webster just because they clearly listen to the episode and time. So we.

We did say that we enjoy pissing people off. That's fair. And so that's a fair critique, whether or not that's right or wrong. I'll let the listener decide on that.

Exegesis is not just about using one of the possible translations, but about looking at the context for the correct translation. I take issue with that just in general, based off how translation functions. Like all translation is interpretation.

We bring so much to the text ourselves. It's like unescapable. So I don't think we can really find the correct translation.

We can find translations that are better than others, you know, or, you know, whatever. So that's fine. Story does really matter to me. And I agree that the Bible tells a great story. That's kind of why I stick around.

I like the Jesus stuff. Yeah, I definitely did say. I, I believe Paul was wrong.

This is something that I kind of was hesitant to say to Brandon because I didn't want dismiss the first third of his book where he took the time to go through all of the passages. And I kind of acknowledged that from kind of a place of privilege. I like, I've done that. I've done the exegetical work.

I've read through the Bible passages and I've made it. I've come to a conclusion. I don't. I think you can argue that those, you know, scholarly.

You can make a scholarly argument saying that these are condemning homosexuality. You can also make scholarly arguments saying it's way more complicated than that. The. The waters are muddy.

I'm comfortable saying I just disagree with Paul, which is not something you can say based off someone's under interpretation of or sorry, rather doctrine of how inspiration works. Like, is the Bible inspired? Is it inerrant? But I would challenge that person and say, okay, well, you don't agree with Paul's take on.

Well, actually maybe they do on the subjugation of women and patriarchy. Or like, he thought slaves were kind of an okay thing. So anyway, I think we can disagree with Paul and he is wrong.

ulture so different from mine: 2000

It's too fundamentalist for me. It's taking the Bible literally and then trying to argue against it. I think that's a boring argument. I don't care.

Of course, the word homosexuality wasn't in the Bible because that word linguistically did not yet exist. Like, that's a relatively new word. That doesn't mean that the concept can't be pointed to or talked about. Like, I think it's not.

Like, once that word became a thing, gay people began to exist. Like, the. The way that we use that word also has context, so it means something. I think that's fair.

And maybe the Bible isn't talking about homosexuality in the sense that you and I, how we mean that today. But I, I actually, I think that argument's annoying. I would point to other things and. Yeah, like, I. I don't know.

I get his point about going to church more than once a month. That's fine. It's just not for me. I did that. I spent a good portion of my life in churches. I worked in them for six years as.

And once a month is all of that I can muster to maintain health for myself and also stay connected to a community who is just a. Okay with me coming when I. When I feel comfortable doing so. So I'm going to keep doing that.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:57

Yeah. Yeah. A couple things.

One is I do a podcast episode with Christian Ashley on his show Let Nothing Move you, because he invites people with differing opinions sometimes, and we talk about some of those laws in Leviticus, and I go over why I think they're there. So if you want some more of that exegetical argument and perspective, I think you can make the case without even having to deny biblical inerrancy.

I happen to also deny biblical inerrancy. I think Paul is wrong, but I don't think you'd have to to get to an affirming situation.

So if you want to check that out, I'll try to remember to put that in the show's description. And, yeah, like, I always take issue with going to church, since church is in the name of our podcast.

I always have to bring that up because I'm like, yo, the way the Bible defines church is like, people talking about scriptures and theology and God together. And, like, what we're doing right now is church. So maybe. Yeah. Yeah. All right. T.J. did you read that one? Did I read that one? I think I read that one.

TJ Blackell: 00:53:53

If I lied, would, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:53:54

No.

TJ Blackell: 00:53:55

So we have Michael. And he says, I guess this group needs to be renamed Fundamentalist Podcasters. Nothing Christ like about all this LGBTQ bashing.

And then the little sad emoji. We have Paulette saying, you can't be both. You'll love one and hate the other. I don't know what that means. I don't know what that's in reference to.

What is that in reference to?

Josh Patterson: 00:54:20

She's pulling the quote where Jesus talks about, you can't serve both God and money because you'll love one and hate the other. And she's just applying that to, you can't be gay and Christian. Either you'll be a Christian and love Jesus or you'll love being gay. Can't do both.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:35

Ignoring context. That's always fun.

TJ Blackell: 00:54:37

Right? So then we got Jim. He says, I've seen this young man in several debates and discussions, which. Yes, yes, he probably has.

He says his perspective is constant. My main concern is that he does not see it as wrong or as something he is working on. He believes the Bible condones it.

That is a fundamental contrast with Scripture, which unfortunately make him a false teacher. He seems like a nice guy and appears to be sincere, but I can't get there from here. Continue to pray for him.

Josh Patterson: 00:55:09

That's like the kindest way of telling someone they're wrong. Yeah, it really seems sincere.

I mean, it could be kind of condescending, but I think he's at least acknowledging Brandon as a human being, stating that why he disagree. Why he disagrees, but is like, I think Brandon is sincere. I don't think he's acting in bad faith. He seems like a nice dude. I just can't get there.

I'm going to pray for him, which that sounds like kind of a biblical thing to do, right? Jesus. I mean, I don't want to assume this guy thinks Brandon is his enemy, but, you know, pray for your enemies. Pray for those who disagree with you.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:41

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:55:41

This is like the most Christian response we've had.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:44

Yeah. I feel like if he's being condescending, he's not trying to be condescending, like, I think.

Josh Patterson: 00:55:49

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:49

Yeah. I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. I like Jim. I mean, I don't like his beliefs, but I like him. Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:55:56

Right?

Joshua Noel: 00:55:57

Yeah. All right.

Josh Patterson: 00:55:58

Michael was nice. Michael being quippy. Michael standing up for the LGBTQ folks.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:02

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 00:56:02

Nothing Christ like, about all this LGBTQ bashing. Say it again, Michael. The people in the back.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:09

Nothing Christ like about insert here bashing you. That just always works, even Fundamentalist bashing, which I were trying not to do it, but sometimes, man, y' all make it so easy.

Sorry, that one was bashing. My bad. I apologize, guys. Okay, I think this is the very last one here, if I am correct. Yeah, okay, last one.

And then we're gonna start getting into this. But Sherry, and this is the one. I'm like, this was, this was how I think people should disagree.

I think I'm saddened that so many Christians are not open to honest discourse as shown by the vast negativity in the comments. Listen to the podcast or not. Free will.

If you listen, disagree with what is presented, then respond with a reasonable, inviting, grace filled explanation of what's missing or misinterpreted or whatever. No one in here can claim to not have sin.

So pointing fingers is hypocrisy, reminder, the only true qualification to claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. After that, whatever is going on in someone's life is between them and Jesus. We are all a work in progress.

If a non Christian or newer Christian or a less knowledgeable Christian were to read these comments, they'd most likely be quite sickened and turned off of Christianity. That needs applause. I think.

TJ Blackell: 00:57:22

I don't.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:23

I'm honestly, I'm assuming she's probably not affirming, but like, I am affirming of everything she said. I think.

Josh Patterson: 00:57:29

Yeah, I agree. I think this is a very kind and caring and compassionate response. I think even there's something tiny in here that so many people miss.

Like, listen to the podcast or not. That's your choice. Like, you don't. If you don't. If you don't want to listen to it.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:46

Forcing anybody.

Josh Patterson: 00:57:49

Yeah, I, I like this one. I. I also love her point too, about no one here can claim to not have sin. So pointing fingers is hypocrisy.

I know I'm rather progressive, but that doesn't mean my anthropology is so high that I don't think people suck. I don't think we're totally depraved. I want to go that far.

But I know myself and I know my own inner thoughts and desires and they're not always the best, so I assume that of other people as well.

TJ Blackell: 00:58:17

So yeah, someone, someone out there is like got their little chart of what you believe, and on the Calvinist one, they're just like, no, total depravity.

Josh Patterson: 00:58:28

Got it. Another reason Josh is a heretic.

TJ Blackell: 00:58:32

Very clear.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. And that's. I don't know.

Josh Patterson: 00:58:37

And her point at the end is good. From An Eve.

From an evangelism standpoint, if a non Christian were to walk into this group or a newer or less knowledgeable Christian, like she said, and read these comments, Instant turn off.

TJ Blackell: 00:58:49

Yep.

Josh Patterson: 00:58:50

It's just. That's bad pr, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:58:53

Yeah, yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:58:54

I mean, very, very least, most basal level. This looks bad.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, if I was following Christian podcasters because I wanted to listen to Christian podcasts and I saw this, I would never listen to a Christian podcast. Like, I don't want to hear any of these people talk. They all kind of seem like they suck, honestly. Yeah.

And I mean, this is the problem with a lot of Christians online in general, and maybe not just online on news, on whatever.

Like, I know there's a lot of good Christians and you go to small churches, you see that when you go to theology beer camp, you see that when you meet Christian, actually, you're like, oh, man. Yeah, there are a lot of really great Christians.

But then a lot of times you hear these people on the news or online and you're like, so these people say they're like this Jesus guy who said all this stuff about love and, huh. You know, like a lot of times it's like, just, what? How do we get here? But yeah, so people like her, I feel like. Give me a little bit more hope. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 00:59:51

All right. That was probably the longest side segment we've ever had on this show, ever.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:56

Oh, the one with you and Christian just now?

TJ Blackell: 00:59:59

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:02

Hey, guys, before cutting to this separate, shorter interview that TJ does with Christian Ashley, I want to read to you all part of text that he sent to us to read to Josh Patterson before you hear this interview. I did read this to Josh Patterson before recording, but we didn't read it on the air.

So just want to take the time to read this to you all as well for context. So this is after I sent over to Christian all of the comments that we discussed on the podcast just previously to this.

Obviously, I believe the position taken the episode to be contrary to Scripture. And I would say so to Josh his face if we were to speak. Hopefully done so in a way that was loving and respectful.

But there are better uses of my time and others than to complain and whine about an opinion, even if I think that opinion is wrong. If you don't agree with the assertions made in the episode and question, then strengthen your position by studying Scripture.

Then use that knowledge to love others while, well, by speaking the truth to them. If you agree with the assertions, I respectfully disagree, as I cannot reconcile such opinions with biblical truth.

But this does not mean that I hate you for thinking differently than I. Specifically he talks to Josh. I'm sorry you had to go through this.

I apologize that some people on my side of things can't react wisely or control themselves. Well, you didn't deserve the vitriol.

I heavily disagree with your assertions, but I am grateful to be in a country where such voices are allowed to speak openly and freely. Obviously I would prefer it if you were on my side of things, but I can't control you. Neither would I want to.

The great and worst part of free will is that we make our own decisions and we deal with the repercussions. Lord knows I dealt with plenty for believing and acting as I do.

Keep searching and questioning and don't let anyone tell you that you simply need to accept an idea. I believe what I believe, not because I was told to, but because I did the work to comprehend it and then apply it.

God bless you and be with you in accordance to his will.

TJ Blackell: 01:01:45

I'm here with the one and only MCA Christian Ashley from Let nothing move you. We had some scheduling issues and we had to do this separately just to get Christian's thoughts on the issue at large.

So Christian Ashley, how are you doing today?

Christian Ashley: 01:02:01

Doing all right, tj, how about you?

TJ Blackell: 01:02:02

Also good. Good. It's nice to not be working. Oh yeah, in the more laborious job, you know. So let's get into it.

After hearing the comments that we sent over, how do you respond as a Christian who isn't queer affirming seeing what other Christians had to say to Josh Patterson?

Christian Ashley: 01:02:24

Well, honestly I can't say that I'm surprised because that'd be a bald faced lie.

I'm used to people on my side of things having poor attitudes and to how to actually argue against the ideas presented in Josh Patterson's episode which I have listened to and you know, which was the first thing they should have done instead of having the knee jerk reaction of oh this is wrong. Hey, I had the knee jerk reaction of oh this is wrong. But then I listened to what he said and said oh this is still wrong.

But now what did I do with my time after that? I didn't go complaining about it on the Internet.

I just spent time going over scripture once again and seeing what God has to say on the issue, what the Bible has to say on the issue. And it says, oh Scripture is not queer affirming, therefore I am not queer affirming.

Then I moved on with my life and unfortunately, as was the case in that group, which I am a part of, and I saw this happen, and I rolled my eyes the instant I saw all those comments, people don't know how to argue. Well, sometimes. And this is a conflict on every side of the equation because people, for some reason don't just know how to argue.

We're not taught well, I guess, but it was just done so poorly and so viciously that it's like, guys, all you're doing is helping them by acting in this manner because now they look like they're under attack. Because they're under attack. Therefore more people are going to flock and try and defend and protect when you.

If you just shut up and, you know, kept the truth to yourself for this moment, things would have been fine.

TJ Blackell: 01:03:56

Yeah, yeah. And I, like, you know, sometimes on the Internet it's fun to hop on a dog pile, but I think that is more suited for things less serious than this.

Christian Ashley: 01:04:07

It was also immensely disrespectful because you could tell the vast majority of them hadn't actually listened to the episode proper. They just came with the presupposition. And a right presupposition, in my opinion, that affirming is incorrect. It is a bad way of loving people.

But then they take it to the extreme.

And before they actually listen to what is being said in the episode proper, they make themselves look out to be fools because they're causing problems for themselves and others when if they had just taken the time to slow it things down, think things through, we wouldn't have had an issue.

TJ Blackell: 01:04:42

Yeah, yeah.

So if you were to post a podcast episode about your theology of sexual ethics in a group like that, or you know, the same one because you're in it, how would you want queer affirming Christians to respond to your post?

Christian Ashley: 01:04:56

Wow, man. That would require me to actually post there and be productive in that regard.

I was actually just talking with my great uncle, is a retired pastor, he's now interiming, and we were both talking to each other because, you know, I'm in a process right now of sending out resumes, trying to find a place to end up at, you know, for work, you know, in a pastoral role, whether that be head, associate, youth, what have you.

And we're both like, no, we both suck at self promotion, which you would think is something that, as a very egotistical person by nature come naturally. Maybe it just doesn't.

But for this, if I were to actually do this, to answer the question, what I would hope is that they would listen to what I had to say, they would go into the episode proper and see, here is why he believes what he does.

And in fact, Joshua has been on an episode with me before where we went over in Leviticus 18, amongst other chapters we did that day, where I went over why Scripture says we're not supposed to do it, why it is a sin.

Why are we still, after that part, still supposed to love people who are in the midst of that sin just as much as I'm supposed to love other people in the midst of other sins.

And I would hope that if they gave me the time of day that they would see where I'm arguing from isn't a place of hate, isn't a place of, I don't like those people, therefore I can just besmirch their good names. No, it's because of how deeply I value Scripture.

And as I am an inerrant, you know, Christian, looking at the Bible, at the original text, you know, as much as we get from translation to translation of what we have now, I see it inerrant, infallible. This is God's word. What God says goes. Ergo, if he says not to do something, I don't do that thing unless I don't want.

Unless I want to be on the side that's not his.

And then hopefully they would take that to mean that if they were to, you know, meet me in person, you know, I wouldn't be getting the torches and pitchforks ready. I wouldn't, you know, be trying to burn anyone at the stake.

I'd instead have a conversation with them about why I do believe it's sin, why I want them to have something better in their lives, because I see the harm that it does, and because I've seen the harm that I've done in other sins in my life. And I don't want that for anyone. So that would be my hope, is that they would listen first, you know, have their own opinion. Sure.

But then not make a big deal out of it.

TJ Blackell: 01:07:11

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you think we should respond to people who call themselves Christians but talk like those in this comment section?

We don't want to, you know, pile hate onto hate. But how do we respond? Well, to Christians who shout hate at the things that they disagree with.

And like you said, without even listening to the episode, without listening to the subject matter of the post, how do we do that?

Christian Ashley: 01:07:34

I mean, with love and patience. And that's a hard skill to learn in both regards. You have to look at another human being and say, Aspects about you that I'm not quite fond of.

I'm still going to love you despite them as I'm working on myself as well. I need to recognize, okay, what's the log in my own eye I need to take out first. As Jesus teaches us how to judge, not that we can never judge.

Go ahead and look through your Matthew, which actually I'll be covering it a little bit on that nothing move you pretty soon. So get rid of your own stuff, then worry about other people. And then as a result of that, just like just be patient with people.

And that's incredibly hard thing to do because they think that they're right, I think that I'm right. I think I've got the better backing of scripture than they do.

But they too can connive ways to make it seem like scripture says something that it doesn't. And they can fully believe it. And that's what they're all about and that's where they end up.

So I need to meet them where they're at and just have a dialogue. And look, sometimes it's going to be fruitless. Sometimes you're really going to waste your time.

And it's like learning how not to waste your time over time is a good thing to do.

If you have the first conversation and they're not going to budge whatsoever, maybe a follow up isn't what you need to do now, unless they're like a member of your church or something and there's a conversation needs to happen, something's got to give. Whether someone stays or leaves, that's something that could be brought up.

But what they need to learn and what I hope a lot of people on my side would actually learn is that if we want to be taken seriously for what we believe, we can't have that knee jerk reaction to this. That reaction of this is wrong. I in the core of my being think that it is wrong.

And I think that people who are engaging in it are wrong are in desperate need of help. Ergo, if I want to then help them. I don't demonize them. Before I talk to them, I talk to them and hey, I'm going to be open and honest with you.

I'm going to say this is wrong, this is sin. This is what scripture says is sin. But I'm not then going to look at them. You're worthless. You need to change everything about your life.

No, I think you need to change some things. Just when I need to change things about my life.

So, I mean, at the end of the Day for people who are more vocal on my side of things, who just need to learn, A, to shut up sometimes and B, to argue. Well, you just got to be patient, and that's hard. Like I said, it's not.

Our default is to try and win an argument, and that's what they think that they're doing by arguing the way that they do by being as loud as they are. But the loudest voice doesn't make you right. And you need to be careful about. You construct it, lest other people mistake you for a fool.

And just go over the entire book of proverbs for how many times you can be called a fool and you be righteous for calling that person a fool. This would be a way to call someone a fool and be righteous so long as you were doing it in a loving, respectful way.

So just if you're on my side of things. And your response to this was, how dare he post this? This has no place anywhere on this, you know, public forum, semi public.

And the fact that it's podcast creators. What country do we live in? Number one, this is free speech. He's allowed to publish these things, even if they are theologically incorrect.

He's allowed to talk about them because we have the freedom to do such things. And if I take that very seriously, which I do, that means he can post it on that forum.

That also means he's not free from criticism, just like I'm not free from criticism. So just do it. Well, learn how to love people.

TJ Blackell: 01:10:48

All right, so is there anything else you have to say to these voracious commenters or to Jay Patty?

Christian Ashley: 01:10:54

I mean, I would have that discussion to him face to face and say, hey, I think you're wrong. Just as I'm sure he'd say, I think you're wrong, Christian, so we can have that discussion. Discussion. I'm fine with that.

So I'm open to having that talk. I'm. I'm grateful that we do live in a country where he's allowed to say that and I'm allowed to say what I want. So just. I do praise God for that.

I hope and pray that he continues through his process of figuring out where he is in his Christian walk and that I love him, too.

TJ Blackell: 01:11:22

All right, so thank you so much, Christian, for your time and cooperating with this, you know, hectic little piece of episode history. Make sure to check, Christian out where you get your podcasts.

Joshua Noel: 01:11:34

All right, guys, thank you for your time. I hope hearing Christian, someone who isn't affirming side of things, was helpful for this.

TJ and I are affirming we support LGBTQ rights movements and their inclusion in the church. Christian does not, but we do work with Christian on several other projects.

I'm going to try to include some links to those down below like Systematic ecology, as well as some of the other stuff that Christian does.

If you want to hear more from him specifically, he does mention an episode I helped him with on his podcast, Let Nothing Movie, where we talk about Leviticus 18, where both of us give different perspectives of how we read that as someone who, like myself, is affirming and then him who is not, when the Bible does talk about homosexuality kind of as sin, kind of not. If you want to hear that both of our takes, I will have that link down below for that Leviticus 18 episode of Let nothing move you.

I think it's very beneficial as well as we're also going to have links to Josh Patterson's episode that we're talking about in this episode proper. So again, thank you for listening to this shorter interview that TJ did with Christian. We're going to get back to the show now with Josh Patterson.

Thank you.

TJ Blackell: 01:12:39

So if someone posted an episode of their podcast that had someone supporting something like Christian nationalism into a group, group of Christian podcasters who are more like the ones we hang with at Theology Beer camp, what kind of response or reaction do you think they would receive? Would it be similar to this treatment that you got in the Christian podcasters group?

Josh Patterson: 01:13:00

Unfortunately, I have to say I think it would be like, I think. Well, I don't know. I think it depends because.

And I'm going to talk poorly about my own people because I definitely am in the more I am obviously in the more progressive camp, but I think this is something that progressive people also do poorly. A lot of us have come from kind of a fundamentalist background, black and white thinking.

And then when we, you know, deconstruct or something like that, all we all most people have done is just flip to the other side of things. They swap out their bad guys, but they haven't learned how to think. They're still fundamentalists.

So it's still black or white, us versus them, Those are the enemies. And so I think if someone were to start posting Christian nationalist stuff, they would could expect a lot of the similar treatment.

You're not a real Christian. You hate God, you know, heresy, whatever. And like, I would tend to agree with that. Like, I think Christian nationalism is idolatry.

Like, I think it is bad and demonstrably so. Like Christian Nationalism is how we get Nazis. And as far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't have Nazis.

TJ Blackell: 01:14:09

Indiana Jones talks Nazism.

Josh Patterson: 01:14:11

Bad Indiana Jones.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:12

Going back to the silly question.

Josh Patterson: 01:14:14

Right, exactly. Tying it all together.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:16

He'll whoop your ass in hockey for that.

Josh Patterson: 01:14:18

Yeah. So I think.

And this is where it gets dicey, though, because now, from a more progressive perspective, we're going to see progressive people are going to see this as a dire issue.

Like Christian nationalism is actively causing harm in the same way that a more conservative person might see, wow, promoting LGBTQ acceptance is causing violence because you're sending people to hell and damning people and all this kind of stuff. So I think some of the, you know, the progressives aren't off the hook.

They're not always the nicest people in the world, especially towards other progressives.

Joshua Noel: 01:14:49

Like, you're never progressive enough is what I've learned.

Josh Patterson: 01:14:53

Right, exactly. There's an ideological purity culture that exists within more progressive spaces.

That is very annoying and frustrating to me, but I would hope that we could have meaningful conversations about Christian nationalism in a way that is calm, collected, that seeks first to understand the other person and then to respond genuinely, but only after we understand and recognize a person as a person, recognize that their ideas are not who they are. Their idea, we might think sucks, but we don't dehumanize people and then kind of go from there.

But I think, unfortunately, you know, I mean, we can test your theory. I'll go post Christian nationalist stuff in, like, a progressive space and see what happens.

TJ Blackell: 01:15:36

I think. I think what we should do. What we should do is create a fake Christian nationalist podcaster, put his clips in the Ology Beer Camp Facebook group.

Josh Patterson: 01:15:47

Hey, I can help with this.

Joshua Noel: 01:15:48

Yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:15:51

Right.

Joshua Noel: 01:15:51

Well, okay, so part of the problem I have here, and I'm just gonna unbox a little bit because I know, I know we got limited time, but there's multiple ways I could see all this happening and still getting the same reaction. And I think that's what frustrates me the most. Right, so, like Josh's podcast with the same title, Proudly Queer and something.

What was the last podcast? Proudly Queer and Boldly Christian. Right. You could have had that same title, and it could have been a podcast. It's not. I want to say, it is not.

For those listening, Josh is fully affirming and a great guy.

It is not this, but it could have been a podcast where he was saying, hey, listen, I am proud that I have this sexual orientation, but I refuse to give in to the sin And I'm proud of it because I want you to know my temptation and I'm standing up for God. It could have been this really conservative point, but you just read the title and responded to that, right?

And then, of course, there's what Josh actually posted in the response. And I think the same thing could happen in these progressive circles where, like, someone could post something about Christian nationalism.

And what they're really saying is we should have leaders who love the immigrants, like I do, who want to embrace the least of these in our country. We should have leaders that embrace these values of the Bible.

But instead, if you had a post that just had the name in it, even if you said all those things that they probably would agree with, they would just react to the title, I think. I think the same thing would happen. And I think that's what irritates me. It's a lot of times not even about the content, it's just about the title.

And then even with Christian nationalists, you also do have, like, different degrees. So, like, we don't even ask what people mean.

Like, do you mean that what you think is people in our nation's government should have Christian values and believe, like, things are good, like love, peace, and justice? Or do you think that you're saying that the nation should be ruled by people with the same religion as you?

That's two different things that might use the same words. And instead of asking questions, we just throw out heresy and hate and all these words online. And that's why I'm like, wait a minute.

Shouldn't our reaction be based on, like, the actual content and not the title and our assumptions, maybe? Alan.

TJ Blackell: 01:17:52

No, that takes too long.

Joshua Noel: 01:17:53

True.

Josh Patterson: 01:17:54

We want short, quippy posts. Joshua, see the previous, you know, maybe 20 minutes ago, we talked about this.

TJ Blackell: 01:18:00

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:01

That's what people need to do. Respond to Donald Trump. Sorry, Christianity. Trump isn't Burger King. You can't. Have it your way, man. Oh.

TJ Blackell: 01:18:12

Do you think he eats Burger King?

Josh Patterson: 01:18:14

No, he likes McDonald's. He's like, no, for real. I'm not kidding.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:17

Like, money. I know. He likes KFC. That's funny. I didn't know McDonald's.

Josh Patterson: 01:18:20

Oh, yeah, he consistently has McDonald's cater, White House stuff like. Oh, that's a quick Google search, Will.

TJ Blackell: 01:18:28

Yeah, fantastic, though.

Joshua Noel: 01:18:31

But so ignoring the doctrine and opinions, which are all important, but we're gonna ignore that for just a bit here. Let's assume there was a post or promotion of some idea or podcast that we all magically. We all agree with. Right.

Everyone just agrees with this, that it is harmful and dangerous, we shall magically agree what this guy posted. Bad. It's bad for the Christian faith, bad for everything. And it's being posted in a Christian podcast group.

So how do we respond when we have something that we do agree is actually harmful being posted in our Christian podcast group? Do we ignore the harmful, harmful teaching? Do we attack the person for their beliefs? Like, well, how should we be responding, Josh?

Josh Patterson: 01:19:16

Yeah, I mean, I think just to go back to a few things that I said, we should always recognize that people are not their ideas. We cannot reduce somebody to the thoughts that they have in their head. I just think that's not helpful.

And also, like, if I was reduced to the thoughts that come to my head, good Lord, not good. I don't even know if I like that version of Josh Patterson. So that's the first thing.

But I think again, just to repeat myself, I think we need to seek understanding. And this, this comes from experience, right? I have a very close friend of mine who I love and respect way a lot. They disag.

They are like the polar opposite of me when it comes to politics. And then that informs their Christianity and everything.

However, I've noticed when I can have a conversation with them because they like to try to send me memes to get me fired up and, you know, own the libs and all this kind of stuff. But when I sit down and actually talk with my friend and say, okay, tell me, like, why, why do you think this?

What is the thing that you're trying to protect? What are you afraid of? And then you can recognize, like, oh, you care deeply about creating a safe world for your children or, you know, et cetera.

And so then what I can do is I can recognize like, whoa, you and I share similar values. I also want a world where your kids can grow up and be safe. And I want the same for my kids when I have kids one day.

So I think trying to take the time to actually understand, to get behind the thing, right, because when we just say stuff, that's never the thing. There's always something behind the thing.

And try to learn people's motivations, what they're afraid of, what they care about, it takes time, energy, effort. Social media is not good at any of those things. It does not reward those things.

But I think ultimately maybe social media is just inherently not the place to do that.

Like, I those kind of conversations, I don't have on Instagram, DM or Facebook with my buddy, but it's when I go over to his House, eat dinner with his family, and then we sit on his back deck and drink beers. Like, you know, so maybe social media just isn't the place. I don't know.

Joshua Noel: 01:21:31

Yeah, I'll say.

The most meaningful conversations I've had from social media alone that don't involve podcasting, and that's difficult because so much of what I do is just posting my podcast because I don't really like social media that much would be that I posted something. And I've had times where people have messaged me, private message, direct message, whatever, and said, hey, here's what I heard and what you said.

Are you saying that about people who believe like, I do, and then we actually are able to have that conversation completely online.

But, like, the idea is, like, they actually wanted to know what I was trying to say before they just started attacking me for saying it or being public with our disagreement. They were like, hey, let's actually talk about that. And I think that's way more useful.

Even though both of the times that I remember that are most meaningful that that happened to me, we didn't agree in the end.

One of the times it came to literally the other person calling me a bunch of names, and then a week later coming back with, hey, I. I didn't mean that. I'm sorry. And I realized this is kind of like, just different focuses in ministry, but we both love Jesus, and that's what's important.

And then the other time, I remember it being someone who was like, hey, I respect you. I learned a lot from you. I just can't agree with you on this. And I'm gonna go this way. And I'm like, hey, man. Yeah, I love your parents.

I understand why you believe the way you do. Go that way. I still love you, dude.

And, you know, those conversations, I just feel, like, mean more than anything you're gonna do in the public comments, probably.

TJ Blackell: 01:22:48

Yeah. And I do. I just want that first way that you mentioned, I think is easily the funniest way that can go.

Like, hey, I just want to make sure this is what you're saying. Oh, it is. Okay. Well, I'm. Okay. I'm gonna call you a bunch of names now.

Joshua Noel: 01:23:03

Yeah, that actually happened. It was funny because it was someone who used to be one of my pastors. And I was like. I was distraught for like, a week.

Then he came back, and he was like, dude, I was so wrong. And having someone like that who attack you hurts more than anything I think imaginable.

But then having someone who you respected for so Long apologize to you is so much more healing than anything imaginable. And I had both of those at the same interaction. It was wild.

TJ Blackell: 01:23:28

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 01:23:28

Yeah. I think we have a tendency. We have a tendency to assume disagreement is personal. Right. That we can.

And we can perceive it as a personal attack propaganda. Hip hop artist has a great song called Cynical, and towards the end he has this bit where he says, disagreement doesn't mean that I hate you.

If you're intolerant of my views, then what does that make you? Cynical and so, like. Which is.

It's a funny turn of phrase because the whole song he's talking about how he himself is cynical, and then he flips it on those, you know, whatever. So I. I think that I like that line. Disagreement doesn't mean that I hate you.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:04

What's the title of the song again?

Josh Patterson: 01:24:05

Cynical.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:06

Cynical Propaganda. Okay, sorry.

Josh Patterson: 01:24:09

I'm just going to wonder. It's a wonderful song.

Joshua Noel: 01:24:12

And have that pulled up for later. Yeah, nice.

TJ Blackell: 01:24:15

Okay, so since so many people who reacted or commented on your episode in this group seem to only be responding to the title without actually listening to content, like we said we did want to ask you about the episode. So what do you think the more progressive Christians might find most interesting from your interview with Brandon?

And what message would you hope more conservative Christians would take from the episode, even if they don't change their minds?

Josh Patterson: 01:24:38

Yeah, so for the progressives, I hope they. It just gives people a space where if they are an ally, it can help them be a better ally.

Especially, I mean, we do a lot of talk about queer readings of scripture, which in theology is. Is common. Right. There's various ways of reading scripture, different hermeneutical lenses, so to speak.

So we have, like, liberation theology, black theology, you know, womanist theology, etc, and queer theology is just another lens. And so. And I think that's just how theology works. All theology has an adjective in front of it.

Just in seminaries, when you go to theology class, you know, Theology 101, what it should say is white theology. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. What I hope people see is it gives them a perspective and insight into the experience of queer folk.

When you can kind of see a queer reading of scripture and make you better allies for those who are LGBTQ people. I hope that the episode is affirming and that it helps you see yourself in the pages of Scripture.

It helps you feel like that you do belong within the church, and it helps you see, you know, yourself in the face of Jesus or. Yeah. So so there's that.

And actually, that's what I would hope more conservative people could get out of the episode as well, is that, you know, again, the whole love your enemy thing and learning to see the other in the face of Christ, and that LGBTQ people are created in the image of God just like everybody else. And I hope conservative people from listening to this episode can at least acknowledge that. That these. There are people who genuinely love.

Love Jesus. They don't hate God. They're not trying to be heretics. They have a. An intimate relationship with the divine, and they're gay.

And like, I hope people can acknowledge that. And even if you disagree, stop dehumanizing people, allow that space to exist, and also just be, oh, I almost said a bad word on your podcast.

We already said just, well, here, check this out. Let's see. Just being happy that that's people. More people want to go to church and read the Bible. Like, isn't that the whole point of evangelism?

So why not gay people, too?

Joshua Noel: 01:26:58

Yeah, yeah. I. I do find. And this is. This is the last comment that I don't think is very unifying, but whatever.

I do find that, like, most of the people, to me, from my own perspective, who attacks different. Different ideas so much within Christianity, to me, it feels like they're revealing they don't actually have that much faith. Right.

Like, you think if someone come listen to Brandon Robertson and hear him talk about the Bible, they're not going to hear the Bible. They're going to hear that, you know, this sinful thing you disagree with is. Right. I'm like, wait a minute. Didn't the same Bible you say near it?

Didn't God say that his word will never come back empty? So, like, shouldn't you just have faith in the Word? Seems like you don't. Seems like you only have faith that people agreeing with you.

And if they listen to someone who disagrees with you, clearly Brandon is way more powerful than God. So that's dangerous. Come on, man. That's not faith. But also, I backtrack a little bit.

If someone ever wants to, you know, accuse me of one day making out with Brandon in hell, I'm gonna take it as a compliment that you think someone like Brandon would, you know, find me attractive. Like, that's kind of cool. Thanks.

Josh Patterson: 01:27:57

Very nice.

Joshua Noel: 01:27:57

Yeah. Yeah. That being said, yeah, we do like to end every episode, though, talking. I just don't think practical that our listeners could go do.

They'll help better engender Christian unity.

I'll make it Challenging what's something they could do on social media, Josh, right now that would help better engender Christian unity rather than drive us further apart.

Josh Patterson: 01:28:19

Yeah. Go find somebody that you disagree with. Maybe in this case it's Brandon Robertson, and actually spend time reading.

In this case, if it's Brandon, reading his posts, listening to his videos, from a posture of seeking understanding. That's it. You don't have to agree with him. You don't have to heart everything. You don't have to comment. Yeah, Amen. Hallelujah. Praise God.

But just go listen. From the posture of seeking understanding and from the posture of I want to recognize that Brandon Robertson is created in the. The image of God.

And so. And then, you know, insert the person you disagree with. Go try that.

Joshua Noel: 01:29:01

Yeah.

Josh Patterson: 01:29:01

And that goes also for all of our progressive friends too. Go try to understand your, I don't.

Joshua Noel: 01:29:07

Know, Christian nationalist neighbor.

Josh Patterson: 01:29:09

Yeah, the crazy Christian nationalist neighbor. Exactly. Something like that. It's a challenge for us all. Seek understanding.

TJ Blackell: 01:29:14

So if we all approach our. Our worst enemies, our arch nemeses that.

Joshua Noel: 01:29:19

You'Re describing here, Perry the Platypus. Sorry.

TJ Blackell: 01:29:22

That posture of understanding, what do you think changes?

Josh Patterson: 01:29:27

I think at the very least, it helps us humanize people and can give us compassion and also not immediately write them off.

osh has been podcasting since: 2017

He's a nerd and all he does is freaking read theology books because he has a problem.

Joshua Noel: 01:29:55

Yeah, he read more books last week than you did in your lifetime.

Josh Patterson: 01:29:59

Like, don't assume things about people. Go seek understanding. And that doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

You can understand somebody and still think their views are deeply harmful and problematic, but at least you see them as a human being. And I think that's the most important thing is the humanization aspect, man.

Joshua Noel: 01:30:17

Amen. Hallelujah. Other Pentecostal phrases. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:30:21

Praise the Lord.

Joshua Noel: 01:30:22

So love that.

TJ Blackell: 01:30:23

Before we wrap the show up, we like to do what we call the God moment, which you both know. And if this is your first time here, what is wrong with you? I always make Josh go first. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 01:30:38

I always have God moments every week. Yeah, man, I knew exactly what I was gonna say until you asked me. I do this, like, every week. Right. Like I ought to say.

Then you asked me then, like, what was it? Oh, no. I am preparing to go to Orcon with Dr. Tom Ord. I'll see Josh Patterson there. Nerd.

And just like my first time going to theology beer camp, I'm a little nervous because I'm like, man, I'm probably going to be the most conservative person in the room.

And for those who don't know, being the most conservative or most progressive person in the room to any kind of theological convention, like, this is terrifying. Always. It's just always scary.

And I am confident that they are going to be loving people, because I know Tom and I know Josh and I'm like, these are loving people. And yet it's still a little scary.

So I'm just challenged to not be afraid to say what I believe, but also, you know, trust that these people are going to be as loving as I know they're going to be instead of acting like a fraidy cat. Yeah, that's my. That's my thing. All right.

TJ Blackell: 01:31:39

For me, my God moment this week happened today. I was driving home from work.

Christian Ashley: 01:31:44

Whoa.

TJ Blackell: 01:31:45

I got a phone call from a number I didn't recognize. You know, the caller ID popped up a second later and it sounded like a made up name. I was like, what is. What is this?

And then there was that little part of me that was like, I should probably answer the phone. And so I did. And that's how I found out that I had been listed as someone's personal reference for a job they applied for.

Which thank God, because I do know him and he really does need that job.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:12

He should have told you you were getting that call.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:14

That probably would have helped, you know, Maybe so. But God finds a way.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:18

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:19

And it's just getting me to answer that phone anyway.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:22

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:22

As much as I, you know, didn't write because the name just sounds made up. It's a law firm. That's one of the ones. It's just a weird last name.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:30

I feel it.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:31

It's like I looked at it like, this is clearly a scam.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:35

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:36

But it wasn't. And I answered. And I was, you know, it would actually be a professional and personal reference, which was cool.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:43

Nice. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:44

But I'm glad. I'm thankful.

Joshua Noel: 01:32:47

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:32:48

Both for the opportunity and for the fact that I actually picked up the phone. Yeah. So, Josh, do you have. Josh Patterson, do you have a gun? No, actually, just Josh again. Josh Noel again.

No, but Jay, Patty, do you have a God moment for us? This week?

Josh Patterson: 01:33:03

Yeah, I want to. If it's okay, I'll share two, but I'll be quick.

Joshua Noel: 01:33:06

Sure.

Josh Patterson: 01:33:06

One.

So, like, when I was in undergrad, my youth minister professor really drilled into my head this idea of the Ministry of presence, which is just about being with people. And I had a friend who was going through. Going through it, to say the least. And they were very difficult to convince to go out and do anything.

But I finally was able to convince them, like, hey, come, you know, let's go sit somewhere, you know, have a beer or two. And so it. They agreed, and I got to hang out and just kind of be present, not offer any solutions to problems. And it just.

It was cool to kind of be in a.

You know, to feel trusted by that person enough to, like, go and, you know, have a few glasses of wine and a couple beers and just kind of, like, enjoy life in the moment for what it was and let the kind of rest of the things fade away. So that was helpful for myself and also hopefully helpful for that person. So I enjoyed that.

day that I haven't seen since: 2019

So I took them to St. Peter's the Episcopal Church. It's not like anything they've experienced, and I got to have communion with them. And that was kind of a really cool thing for a variety of reasons.

So there you go, all the haters out there, you know, still hating on me for this episode. I took communion on Sunday and I didn't burst into flames.

TJ Blackell: 01:34:41

Get on.

Joshua Noel: 01:34:42

You are what you eat. So he's Jesus now. I'm going to cheat and do a second one too, because it's the one that I meant to do. Yeah, well, you said Josh it again.

It's your fault. Well, it's because I don't want to do a whole episode of Systematic Ecology.

So I'm just going to mention for once in my life, I'm intentionally playing Kingdom Hearts Fragmented Passage on its own.

For those who don't know, the whole purpose of this game was they hadn't released anything in a while and they wanted to stall us for Kingdom Hearts 3. So it was just content to stall us. So it kind of like gets overlooked as, like, oh, okay, that was like a little mini game.

They were just trying to, like, keep us interested Whatever. And this time, like Josh Patchman talks about how story is important. I was like, I wanted to play this for the story by itself.

And, like, for those who don't know, I'm just gonna summarize shortly, the story is that I've been throwing away because all this was just them trying to satiate us of a person, a human being stuck in a world of darkness, completely cut off from all other connection, losing every memory of her friends. And the king himself comes to her in darkness and assures her that, I am coming for you.

Even though you're lost and feel like you have lost everything and that you will never see the light again, I am coming for you. And the fact that that message is the one that I was like, meh.

And I'm looking at it going, man, that's actually the whole message that I live my life around. And maybe I shouldn't meh. That game. That's all.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:05

That is really funny.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:06

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

TJ Blackell: 01:36:08

That's really cool.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:08

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:09

I love it when a Japanese game is just like, here's the Bible.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:14

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:14

It happens a lot, actually. It happens a lot.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:17

A weird amount of time.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:18

It's really funny. But if you listen to this whole episode, congratulations. There should be a consolidatory prize on its way in the mail.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:28

Yeah. But just depending on address, like, you know, 42 Adventure Time Way.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:33

Yeah. Well, check your spam mailbox. Florida Real Life.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:36

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:37

Spam mailbox. You can check out the merch. It's on the Captivate store to support the show. It's comfy. It's fun to wear. It's breathable.

Super important for us Southerners right now.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:50

So true.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:51

So true.

Joshua Noel: 01:36:52

Comfy shirts are the way to go, regardless of what they say, even if you don't like us. Get it just because it's comfy. That's what I say.

TJ Blackell: 01:36:58

Yeah. The whole church has air conditioning.

Joshua Noel: 01:37:00

True. Yeah. Also, be sure to check out some of the other shows on the All Podcast network I mentioned, Systematic Ecology. TJ and I are both over there.

We talked about Crunk's New Groove recently, so that's cool. And. And I have another podcast, Be Living Water. Check that out. And check Pastor Will Rose out at the homily if you want to hear some of his messages.

When I remember to upload them, that's where they go. Just when I remember them. So that's problematic. Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:37:28

Yeah. If only there was, like, a set thing.

Joshua Noel: 01:37:31

Yeah.

TJ Blackell: 01:37:32

So we hope you enjoyed the show. Next week, we'll be Talking with Jonathan MacNay and Anglican authority autism researcher about his work with faith and those on the spectrum.

After that we're going to have on Dr. Edward Gravely and Dr. Peter Link about their book Bible 101. Then it's usually there's more there.

Then we'll have another roundtable discussion, this time going over how churches can best disciple people in a time where church members spend more time with news and media than they do in the church. Then we're going to be talking to Brian Wrecker about his book Hell Bent and how doctrines about hell may be harmful.

Finally at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show to close us out.

Joshua Noel: 01:38:09

Perhaps he doesn't know probably forever.

TJ Blackell: 01:38:12

So at this point, yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:38:14

I mean if he shows up, that.

TJ Blackell: 01:38:16

Is, if he shows up.

Joshua Noel: 01:38:17

Yeah, you guys gotta invite him. We're not going to.