Apocalyptic Insights: Sci-Fi and Horror Through a Theological Lens

Joshua Noel: 00:00:41

Second Timothy 3:1:7 in the new American Standard Bible.

But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come for men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips without self control, brutal haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power.

Avoid such men as these, for among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women, weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. In this pericope of scripture, a wild pericope of scripture. St.

Paul just finished telling Timothy how different people or different vessels are going to be sanctified for use by God. After this section, he goes on to tell Timothy about the importance of staying strong, preaching the gospel to everyone.

Pastor Will Rose, how might this morning about the last days tie into these ideas of who God's going to use and the need to preach the gospel to everyone?

Will Rose: 00:01:48

Yeah, I guess when I hear this passage, a couple things come to mind. One is like, it's Timothy. So did Paul write this? Was it somebody else? I don't know.

And then the translation where just men or can we use, like, inclusive language?

Joshua Noel: 00:02:02

There.

Will Rose: 00:02:02

There's a couple thoughts come to mind. But what I also think about how every generation goes through challenging and difficult times.

And so, of course, this particular epistle written to a community, they're thinking that they're in the last times. This is it. Look at all that's going around us, the debauchery, the challenges, the. The hard times that are around them.

They're like, this is the last time. So I think every generation has its challenges and thinks that they're in the last times.

But yeah, you can take this to heart and be like, yeah, this is a cautionary tale to, to stay focused on what is true and what is Christ like, rather than the world's problems around you.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:39

Yeah, yeah, like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:46

Hey, guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast, possibly your favorite church unity podcast. It's cool if it's not. We really don't hold grudges usually. I am Joshua Nol, here to introduce everyone. That's basically it.

I'm here with the God of Thunders, God of Mike Thor, sits home and reads podcast, reads, listens to podcasts about the one and only Ryan does. How's it going, Ryan?

Ryan Does: 00:03:17

It's going good, man. I love the idea of a fictional character listening to me talk about that.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:22

It's my favorite.

Ryan Does: 00:03:23

Yeah, yeah, it's. No, that idea in and of itself is thrilling. And I appreciate you for throwing it out there at all.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:33

I appreciate you for being here. And I appreciate the one and only Magic Head, aspiring beach bum, but is too busy pastoring. The one and only, our favorite pastor, Will Rose.

How's this going?

Will Rose: 00:03:46

Just got out of the water. Aloha.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also just got back from Hawaii, which is super cool.

We're also here with one of my favorite scholars, one of my favorite theologies that involve theologies podcast that involves theology and drinking, which I've clearly started already because I can't get words straight. The one and only Dr. Leah Robinson. How's it going?

Leah Robinson: 00:04:07

It's going great. Thank you for having me.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:10

Thank you so much for joining us.

Leah Robinson: 00:04:12

Absolutely. And Will, women can't be used because we're two weak willeds.

Will Rose: 00:04:18

I know.

Ryan Does: 00:04:23

Brutal.

Will Rose: 00:04:26

Second Timothy.

Leah Robinson: 00:04:26

Anytime Stewart tells me to go to work, I'm just gonna say I'm too weak willed. I can't do it.

Will Rose: 00:04:32

Don't put me in public. Don't put me in public. Too weak.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:37

Will Rose is the pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Leah Robinson is the author of a couple different theology books.

We have Bad Theology, Oppression in the Name of God, as well as Bad Theology in a Time of COVID She's also a professor of practical theology and other stuff. Lots of theology stuff with Leah. Also, Ryan does is the host of across the Bifrost, everybody's favorite Marvel Thor Comics podcast.

If you want to know more about Marvel's Thor, go over there. Check it out. The links to the books and this podcast can be down below. Pastor Will, he's part of the homily that's a podcast. It's just his homily.

I say each week. Not really. And he's also one of the hosts of Systematic Geekology, so be sure to check all of that out in the show notes as well.

And one who's never been accused of weak, the one who, if you're listening on YouTube, you might understand this a little bit more. Who is the Lord of time, of temporal space, the one whom considers Doctor who a bad mockery of his presence.

Your favorite podcast host, TJ Tabir, is one Blackwell. How's it going?

Ryan Does: 00:05:41

Good.

Leah Robinson: 00:05:42

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:43

And of course we're here. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of fun today. We're already Goofing off and having fun.

And we're here to talk about there's something weird for this podcast, for the whole church podcast.

It's kind of weird, but we're going to talk about sci fi, we're going to talk about horror and we're going to talk about how these things relate to eschatology and the Bible's version of end times and you know, apocalyptic literature kind of stuff. It's going to be a lot of fun.

The main reason we are doing this is because there are a lot of connections to why these type of stories are told and the kind of disagreements fans have that are really similar to the kind of disagreement some scholars have around the same kind of stuff. So we're going to get into that. We're going to have a lot of fun with it.

And you know, this is probably going to be cross posted to Systematic Ecology and we'll talk a lot about how theology beer camp, because this is going to be really similar to some of the stuff we do over there. It's going to be a fun time.

Will Rose: 00:06:31

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:06:31

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:06:32

So if you're interested in us them, if you like what you're hearing now, you should check out the On Azale podcast network website. The link is below for us and shows like ours. And if you're already listening on the YouTube channel, please hit like and subscribe.

Click the bell so you know that when our videos go up, it's time to go watch one.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:50

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:06:50

Ding ding.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:51

So true.

And of course you all know we do like to start with a holy sacrament of silliness because you can't be divided when you're being a silly as I like to be. I was gonna do one related and for some reason I came up with something. I mean a third of it's partially related, I guess. Guys, I'm silly.

This is what happens. Today's question. TJ Islands. First, give you guys time to think about it. Who would win in a game of 21 pick up basketball?

We got Goofy the Ice King from Adventure Time or Jar Jar Binks.

Ryan Does: 00:07:29

Oh God.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:30

I'll make my case for Goofy. I'm going with Goofy primarily because Jar Jar's antics. I could see them working like large scale. He accidentally blew a bunch of stuff up.

But he doesn't seem to be lucky in the same way that Goofy is. And also I think he's going to piss off Ice King. And Ice King's just going to be too distracted trying to do something with Jar Jar.

And Goofy's just going to accidentally like Slip on ice and like circle back through the hoop over and over or something? I don't know. This is just. That's the scene my brain built. Tj, tell me why I'm wrong.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:04

Yeah, Jar Jar Binks is 6'5 with a 40 foot vertical, but he's not going to be.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:10

He's not going to want to make it.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:12

You know how, you know how high Gungans can jump for no reason?

Joshua Noel: 00:08:16

That might make it more challenging though.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:18

No, it doesn't.

Leah Robinson: 00:08:19

So it amphibians.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:22

I feel like you're forgetting how clumsy Jar Jar is though. Yes.

Will Rose: 00:08:25

I don't think he could walk a.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:26

Straight line to the goal.

Leah Robinson: 00:08:28

So as soon as you said 21, I thought blackjack.

Will Rose: 00:08:31

Me too. Me too.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:33

I was like, yes, I forgot that, that, that exists. Honestly, I totally just call it blackjack, though.

Leah Robinson: 00:08:40

Very bad list of you, I guess.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:42

But no, I mean, I prefer Texas hold' Em. I just don't really like. Blackjack is just so straightforward. I don't know.

TJ Blackwell: 00:08:47

Anyway, I'm comfortably in the Jar Jar.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:50

Okay, all right. You're going with Jar Jar. All right. Ryan.

Ryan Does: 00:08:54

Well, I don't know what an Ice King is from Adventure Time.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:57

Oh, you're missing out.

Ryan Does: 00:08:59

Well, I'm not in my 20s anymore, so I don't know what an Adventure Time is.

Will Rose: 00:09:03

So back when you're 18, they could drink too. When you were 18?

Joshua Noel: 00:09:07

Yes.

Ryan Does: 00:09:08

Yeah, no, but we had to make it in our tub will at home. So here's the thing. Like I am. I am a prequels Star wars kid through and through.

Phantom Menace changed my life to the chagrin of OG trilogy people everywhere, myself included. I frickin Jar Jar Binks never appealed to me. Even as a nine year old, it didn't appeal to me. I was Darth Maul through and through.

Get that silly little space frog out of my Star Wars. Not my Star Wars. It's, it's, it's, it's Goofy through and through.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:49

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:09:50

Guys, have you seen the perfect cast? Have you seen the Goofy movie? Have you seen Goofy Movie 2? The Goofy. The extremely Goofy movie? He is athletic as hell, man.

And I think in a game of 21, like even if it's a free for all, if all three of them are playing at the same time, like Goofy, he's got that cartoon probability.

So even if this was like Leah said, like if we're playing, if we're playing 21, if we're, you know, throwing down some cards, I think Goofy wins no matter what.

Will Rose: 00:10:19

You're going Space Jam.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:20

On us also.

Will Rose: 00:10:20

Going all Space Jam.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:21

On us also. Oh, yeah. I know we have limited time. I don't want to spend it all on the silly question.

But I do want to point out, since TJ mentioned 40 foot vertical ice king can flip fly.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:31

That would be a travel fantastic.

Ryan Does: 00:10:33

He can take his. He can take his Gen Z somewhere else.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:38

Anyway. Leah.

Leah Robinson: 00:10:40

Hi. Snort brought me another drink. As one who played basketball varsity. Heck yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:49

Nice.

Leah Robinson: 00:10:49

I know. I'm gonna go with TJ on this one and say as soon as y' all said basketball, I was like, oh, that changes the game, because here's the deal.

He can fly. Cool. There were fast people in basketball.

But, like, if you're tall, even if you're flailing around, like, he can just bat you back down into onto earth. I'm. I'm just saying. So I'm going until he gets frozen solid? Well, yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:18

Wow.

Leah Robinson: 00:11:19

Well, yes, until, you know, the Skywalkers come and save Jar Jar or whatever. It's. I know I met.

Ryan Does: 00:11:29

Someone'S gonna have a conniption fit.

Leah Robinson: 00:11:31

Well, you're on my bad list right now, and you know why. And so I'm just gonna keep making the Skywalker references.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:38

All right, let's wrap this up so we can do real podcast stuff.

Will Rose: 00:11:41

Okay. I don't. I don't know.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:43

Why is it.

Will Rose: 00:11:44

Oh, man. Okay, I'm gonna say.

Leah Robinson: 00:11:46

Josh Patterson, North Carolina.

Will Rose: 00:11:49

Oh, there you go. Yep. Okay, gotcha. Reach it. Loud and clear.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:52

Yes. I.

Will Rose: 00:11:53

You would think, as an original Star wars wars guy trilogy guy, that I would not peach our jar because, yes, he annoys me, but I do think.

I originally thought this was a card game, that he was gonna play cards and, like, frustrate the person next to him and say, like, squeeze me all the time. And the person's like, what? And then he, like, says, hit me and gets 21. But I.

I do think, out of accident, pure comedy, George Lucas was writing this basketball storyline. George R. Would win because he just would, like, what? And flip it over his head and it still go in the basket. I think just.

That's what would happen, just through comedy of errors and mistakes. He's still gonna win because George Lucas wrote it.

Ryan Does: 00:12:28

God, you're probably right.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:30

I'm not letting George Lucas anywhere near this basketball game for the ride.

Will Rose: 00:12:34

He's the rep. George Lucas is the ref. Jar Jar's winning. No.

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:38

No.

Leah Robinson: 00:12:38

Well, if you had to pick teams, like, who are you gonna pick first?

TJ Blackwell: 00:12:41

But there's a real podcast to be had here.

Okay, so before we get into it, On a real basic level, how do we all think that stories we share today in the sci fi and horror genres specifically might relate to the arguments had in churches around eschatological topics? Will, you're not muted yet, so you're going first.

Will Rose: 00:13:03

No, I'm going to let Leah go first on this one because this is her jam. She did a whole panel with Leah and Ryan on this. So I'm going to defer and then kind of see if there's anything to add to it or embellish.

But yeah, yeah, Leah, take it away, take it away.

Leah Robinson: 00:13:18

A crafty, crafty teacher trick that he just did there, which is lovely, but.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:24

Luckily, good old pastors manipulating the game.

Leah Robinson: 00:13:28

I need a little bit more time to think, so I'm going to build up your ego so that you will answer for me. Anyway, so it is the. I do love horror and that's true. And I do like sci fi. I will say I, I want to qualify that.

I do think the eschatology, eschatological stuff is. Is it storming where you are? Apologies. North Carolina has been. It sounds like the world's ending. Hey, appropriate, right?

Anyway, so with the, the horror stuff, it's interesting because I do think you have to take it by genre and a lot of people just lump horror into like one big thing and that I don't think that's fair because we don't do that with other genres. But if you're talking about the sort of like, I think the stuff with the end of the world things really fits into the Mike Flanagan stuff.

If you guys have seen that, that's just overtly religious stuff. So that's one genre. I think those kind of genres are just overtly religious. Like there's end of world stuff, there's all that kind of stuff.

And it's just inherently in there. You get the exorcist, you get all of that stuff. It's just religious. But then you get sort of other genres.

I know we're going to go into this, so I'm not going to dig too deep into it, but I do think it's what genre you're looking at because there's all obviously like The Friday the 13th would just happened. The sort of, you know, going after people sort of thing. There's the sci fi version, which Ryan and I did and talked about. Space is real scary.

Come to find out, so is underwater. And so I do think it's which category you go to. The gore porn stuff too. We could talk about that as well.

But I think eschatology really plays into those sort of worlds because it is the fear of the thing that you can't control.

And I think in the beginning, at least, what we were taught in seminary, is that not only did the Bible need an ending, which I can dig into that later, but it's also that people thought Jesus was going to return real quick, and Jesus didn't return real quick. And as a result of that, if Jesus isn't going to return really quick, the world needs to end or the world needs to be tied to Jesus returning.

And that gets into millennialism and stuff like that. So I think in a lot of ways, it's this idea of the uncontrollableness of our situation. You know, we can't control when it's going to happen.

No one knows the time and the date and all this sort of stuff. And in horror, I think the very basic tenant of horror is that you can't control things. There's a loss of control throughout.

And for some reason, some people find that comforting. And I'm one of those people.

And we can dig into the psychology later, but it's uncertainty and it's uncomfortableness, and I think that's the key bit of eschatological ideas of theology.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:13

Now with that, one thing I find really interesting, just from, like, what you're pointing out, too. Another thing they have in common is how they're misunderstood, I think. Yep.

Because apocalyptic literature in the Bible is really has a ton of different genres. Like, some of it's political commentary, and some of it actually is trying to tell something about the end times, maybe.

And some of it's like, hey, stop being arrogant, guys. So, like, you have all these different genres of apocalyptic stuff in the Bible. And this is why I don't like eschatology as a whole hole.

And I just ruined this podcast because eschatology is basically a study that conflates a bunch of different stories with different meanings to try to come up with a timeline. And I'm like, that's not the point. And that tends to happen with horror or sci fi too. Like, people like, oh, horror is so that you get scared.

I'm like, that's actually not the point. And a lot of sci fi, they're like, oh, this is like, about an idealistic future or just about seeing lasers blast things. I'm like, no.

Leah Robinson: 00:17:01

Revelation was the last book quite famously, to be canonized, because I think people into canon rather, but because people were like, what is this? Like, what does this mean? But I had a teacher Dr. Tom Slater, who was an expert in revelation, God bless him, that's. He was a New Testament scholar.

And I remember asking on the first day of this class, I had. I said, why did we even include it? Because it's so confusing. It's caused such drama. What's the deal? And.

And he goes, every story that has a beginning needs an ending. And I thought I was so being funny. Ish. But I do think it's interesting to think did it.

I wasn't at the council, but did it get included because the story needed an ending?

Will Rose: 00:17:49

I mean it needed an omega.

Well, as the resident kind of Lutheran pastor here, Luther would be proud that we're saying should it be added in the canon because he kind of put it in the appendix. He really didn't like that book at all. He put his appendix of the. I like this idea of like building on the fear of like was uncontrollable.

But I would also add to that, like, it's the fear of the unknown. So space, darkness, the monster out there we don't quite know, the shark under the water, the Kaiju, whatever you want to do.

The murderer, the vampire, the zombie, that it's. There's this kind of fear of the unknown. And the future is unknown. So we're going to fill in the gaps of what could or could not happen.

And so these stories that are told can be cautionary tales to beware or to help you cope for whatever you face coming down the road or what gifts you have to play into society. I don't want to make going to have. I'm definitely not a hunter. I'm not that great of a cook.

I guess I could grill a little bit, but like, I don't know. Do they need chaplains in the post apocalyptic dystopia? I don't know.

Leah Robinson: 00:18:50

Water skills.

Will Rose: 00:18:52

Water skills, Yeah. I could just surf. Why everybody else is on the beach fighting zombies, I don't know.

Ryan Does: 00:18:56

But.

Will Rose: 00:18:57

But yeah, I think that fear of the unknown also in the future is unknown. And so we're in the church where they're debating what. What does the future hold?

Only God holds the future or lures us towards new possibilities in the future. Our process friends. But I think, yeah, I think that's as a part of us, of us sharing stories to help us through even. Even through scripture.

What could we do to prepare ourselves for what's coming down the road that we don't know what that looks like.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:23

Also, ironically, Revelation is one of my favorite books. So I'm a bad one that Tracks.

Will Rose: 00:19:27

That tracks.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:28

That's because, like, I'm a literary nerd in the literary, like, aspects of it. Like how much they make connections and like, cameos. And it's just. It is the geekiest book of the Bible by far.

Will Rose: 00:19:38

Definitely has dragons.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:40

It has dragons in it. Also pretty jarring ending if you're just like, reading through the Bible.

Leah Robinson: 00:19:45

It's also batshit. Sorry for the church people. But, like, it doesn't. And people who are like, this is.

This is when my students say, I'm a Bible believing, slash, the Bible is easy. Or it's clear, go read Revelation, come back to me, let's have a chat.

And that's not me saying, you can't be a part of a denomination that translates things in a certain way. That's the. That's why denominations exist. But Revelation is not clear. I'm sorry.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:13

No, this is.

Will Rose: 00:20:14

I like it when you say that. There's thunder in the background, booming. I'm like, leah, watch what you say. Watch what you say.

TJ Blackwell: 00:20:20

This is where literalism becomes very appealing. Because I don't want to think about what all that means. I'm just going to. I'm just going to take that literally. That's all going to happen.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:28

For real? Yeah. Well, so what drives me crazy.

It's the same thing, like when people read Frankenstein who don't actually want to read it genuinely, they're just like, oh, monster. And I'm like, shut up.

Like, you read Revelation and you have all these people who clearly don't know the Bible, who are like, I'm a Revelation expert. And the candle represents that. And they come up like some wild.

And I'm like, dude, no, Ezekiel or Zechariah 3 actually tells us exactly what the candle is. And then like, here's this cool monster. Them, actually, that's from Daniel. And we're already told what that means.

Just read the rest of the book, dude. And it infuriates me. That's all. I think it bothers me so much.

Leah Robinson: 00:21:04

Welcome to being a theologian.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:06

I despise it.

Leah Robinson: 00:21:09

Despise it.

Ryan Does: 00:21:14

Oh, my gosh.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:16

All right. So we're taking a little bit of a detour off the stuff that I despise.

And we're going to go to a geek detour because now you guys know what we're building towards. And now it's time to build. Why do you guys, like, what draws you to sci fi or horror? Or sci fi horror, in Ryan's case, sometimes.

Because, like, I don't know, everybody comes for different reasons. Sometimes it is for like the, the lasers in the, the big blast, but sometimes, you know, maybe. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe there's more to it.

Will, why, why are you drawn to, to Star Wars?

Will Rose: 00:21:48

Star wars in particular or sci fi in general?

Joshua Noel: 00:21:51

Either way.

Will Rose: 00:21:53

No, it's just, it's that, it's that speculative fiction of thinking through of what possibly, of what could be. Now the thing about Star wars, it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. So it's not like necessarily future, it's. It's the past.

But, but in, you know, even movies, like whether it's the zombie apocalypse or just Star Trek or sci fi or even, even like the movie that just came out, Sinners. Leah, have you seen the Sinners? Oh my gosh, yes. Or.

Leah Robinson: 00:22:16

Of course.

Will Rose: 00:22:17

Okay. Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:22:18

So Will, is it any good? I haven't heard you talk about it.

Will Rose: 00:22:21

No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:22:23

Well, yeah.

Will Rose: 00:22:29

No, but I, I think you, if you put yourself in the story, the. The. Which is what we're called to do in scripture, think about what our role would be. How would we react? What would we do in that situation?

How would we respond to what's going around us? So sci fi is the fantasy as the adventure. Where am I in the story? But even in horror, how would I respond to what's going around me?

Would I just take care of myself or would I take care of others? How do I see myself living with community and family and relationship? Like all those things happen in those books.

That's what draws me is the fancy, the storytelling. We're hardwired for story as human beings, I think.

And those are some of my favorite stories that are told or to think about, imagine myself being a part of.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:11

Yeah, yeah. Ryan, you want to go next? What draws you to these sci fi, horror. Sci fi horror kind of things?

Ryan Does: 00:23:18

Well, I mean, originally in life, I mean, Star wars was my. I mean Star wars was my entrance into sci fi.

And it was, I think the optimism, the bright lights, the exciting characters, the uniqueness, the variety of it drew it to me and drew myself to it. But now, like within the last decade, you, you mentioned, like sci fi. Horror is more like my thing. I don't, like, I didn't grow up.

I don't have that innate like love of horror that like what Leo, what Leah's talking about, like, you know, maybe more like kind of down to earth horror. A lot of my, the stuff I enjoy is the, the. The deep dark out there, face the unknown.

What is out there kind of thing, honestly, to, to, to echo Pete ends from last year's beer camp. Like, when I look up at the stars, I'm. I'm scared out of my mind. And meanwhile, Iliadilia is like, imagine what all's out there.

I'm like, yeah, exactly. Imagine what all's out there.

And I found, I found that, you know, people that, you know, maybe listen to that session or at that session in beer camp, I found that juxtaposition very compelling because I was like, oh, am I team Pete or team Ilya? I'm Team Pete.

Because when I watch like my favorite science fiction, you know, franchise as an adult is the Alien franchise, when I look up at the stars, I think, oh my God, what is up there? Like, maybe nothing. But now like I'm drawn to it from the sense of like, it makes me think about life, destruction.

Leah and I talked about this a lot in our panel last year. This idea that creation and destruction are kind of in this never ending cycle of we create, we destroy, we create, we destroy.

And then somewhere in the middle, us as created beings, us as people are not deities. Like we love to try and play God. And I find that theme within science fiction, sci fi, horror, cosmic horror, Lovecraftian horror.

I find that theme incredibly compelling. Our never ending obsession with playing God and how that never ends well. Like it never does, but it also never stops us.

I mean, guys, there are now seven Jurassic park movies. Yeah, creating dinosaurs was always a bad idea.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:43

We need more.

Ryan Does: 00:25:45

Unless you're. Unless you're Spielberg's wallet. It was a bad idea.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:49

No, it's so funny though. It's so funny because the same reason that they keep trying is the same reason that they keep making the movies.

Ryan Does: 00:25:58

You're right. You're entirely right, buddy.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:01

Oh man, it's very funny. Yeah, I, for myself, I'm less drawn to horror. I only really am drawn to horror. That makes me think about myself.

If I read like Frankenstein or like I pick watch a movie and it makes me go, am I the monster? I love it. The rest of horror, I'm like, meh, I didn't need that. You are also sci fi. This is where I'm weirdly not Delia or Pete ends at all.

Because like it goes back to my favorite song, Passenger, the song Home. And he talks about like when I get overwhelmed, I like to think I'm a break in the wall that's going like from here to the ocean. And he's like.

And I like to look up at the stars. I'm wondering Is something staring back at me.

And for me, what draws me to sci fi is like, maybe the story is so big that I don't need to feel anxious about my story because I'm just like a blip, you know, like, to me, that's comforting, but I understand for why a lot of people. That's terrifying. But yeah, Leah, same thing. What draws you to this?

Leah Robinson: 00:26:58

I'm reminded about the Jurassic park that made me giggle. Ryan is when I was there at Edinburgh, we would always have these sort of door wars with the science people.

And so there's a little thing that says science. Science tells you what you can do, humanity tells you why it might be a bad idea.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:21

Exactly. Yeah. Perfect.

Leah Robinson: 00:27:25

I think for me and Ryan and I talked about this a bit at the geek stages that I find a lot of the sort of formulaic. A lot of people, like Christy, who is my podcast partner, Theology on the Rocks, loves formulaic shows. So she goes to sleep watching Criminal Minds.

That's like her thing because it always follows the same formula. And for me, like, I. I'm not trying to sound hipster, although it's going to come across that way.

And I guess we all inherently are, is I actually get really bored with that. I don't like that formula. And maybe that's why I became a theologian is we don't know what the heck's going on, and we're just living in this world.

And so for me, horror is a place where I can go and I don't know the ending. Like sinners will. As soon as the thing happened that was revealed, not to spoil it was like, I'm not gonna spoil it.

I just said, there's a revelation. At some stage, I was like, what?

Joshua Noel: 00:28:25

What?

Leah Robinson: 00:28:27

You know, and it didn't. I know. And it still surprised me. Whereas, like, when I watch some shows, whether they be crime shows or, you know, whatever. Friends.

Some people love to watch Friends a million times, to me, it's. It's kind of boring. And I don't really, like. I want a moment where an M. Night Shyamala moment. Rip. He did it. He got. He got one good one in there.

But for a brief second, I was.

Ryan Does: 00:28:51

Like, did he die and I did not know?

Leah Robinson: 00:28:53

No, he died. He died to me. Around the Signs era. He died to me.

Ryan Does: 00:29:00

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:29:00

As soon as they showed those aliens. And I was like, maybe not.

Will Rose: 00:29:04

I.

Leah Robinson: 00:29:05

Like, maybe not the whole time. Really? They're real skinny. They could beat Charger Banks at basketball.

But, yeah, I think that's the thing, is it hits a Certain group of people, I think, who like to not go on a journey. They don't want to go on a journey. They want the journey blown up and exploded and a little chaos attached to it.

And I think, to me, I find that super interesting. I don't want to know how it ends, you know, and we can psychoanalyze that.

Will Rose: 00:29:34

But spoilers. You don't like spoilers.

Leah Robinson: 00:29:37

I don't like spoilers.

TJ Blackwell: 00:29:39

Yeah, me neither.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:40

No, I'm good.

I mean, I don't care either way because, like, typically when someone spoils something, I'm just so bad at interpreting what people say that I still don't expect the correct thing that happens.

Ryan Does: 00:29:54

Joshua Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:57

Yeah. Like, someone will tell me that. I'll watch it and I'll be like, oh. They meant, like, literally his father.

I thought this was gonna be like, he's a mentor.

Ryan Does: 00:30:04

Kind of like a cool uncle energy.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:08

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:30:09

Yes.

TJ Blackwell: 00:30:10

So we're gonna list our favorite 3 to 5, because no one here knows how to keep it short and sweet. Horror stories or sci fi stories, starting with Joshua.

So we can discuss what themes they may have in common with or what differentiates them from one another.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:26

Coming up with favorites is hard.

TJ Blackwell: 00:30:29

You wrote the question.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:30

Yeah. Dead space has to be up there. For me. The dead space story is just fantastic. I think it's sci fi and horror, so it counts as both.

Obviously, Doctor who is one of my favorites. Star wars is probably up there. If I got two more to pick, I probably go with Frankenstein. Frankenstein's great. G.

Willow Wilson's sci fi trilogy comics. Phenomenal. So I probably have to go with those two.

Ryan Does: 00:30:57

You bewitch me. So with the G. Willow Wilson reference.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:02

Ryan and I are now going to go off and record a different podcast.

Ryan Does: 00:31:05

Darn right we are.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:06

Ryan, though, if you had. If you had to pick three to five, though, what are. What are. Like, I don't know your top from these genres.

Ryan Does: 00:31:11

Josh. Right here, I'll get. I'll give you my three to five. The ones that I can think of off top my head.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:16

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:31:17

So Alien. Alien is a. The first two movies are perfect.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:23

Is that all five?

Ryan Does: 00:31:25

Romulus is incredible. I can only imagine. I've been sending Leah alien Earth stuff for months, and I cannot wait for August 12th. That show is gonna kick so much.

We all knew the Predator franchise. I know some people consider them together.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:46

The Predator.

Ryan Does: 00:31:47

The first Predator movie is an incredible piece of action, but it's also an incredible piece of tension to be like, what does it feel like for the hunters to be hunted? And if anyone out there has not seen the Hulu Show, Killer of Killers, it is the lead in to Predator Badlands and Killer of Killers kicks so much my.

My butt was.

Will Rose: 00:32:11

Was hurt afterwards.

Ryan Does: 00:32:14

So other things outside of that, like John Carpenter's the Thing is exquisite cosmic horror. It is probably the best piece of cosmic horror you could. You could convince me to maybe put some things at 2 and 3 for ranking them.

But the thing is perfect. I mean, I love Star Wars. I started off watching Star wars, renting VHS from the library and just cycling through them. I saw Phantom when I was nine.

I was the perfect age for Phantom Menace. And I love Star wars so much. I am actually going to just be a little. A little timely here.

Jurassic park, like, I already said it, like, yeah, the concept of playing God and not learning your freaking lesson, like, the idea that capitalism and the desire for money is so intrinsically in us to put other people at risk and in harm so that we can benefit ourselves is so like, it's a predator.

Will Rose: 00:33:18

Like, as predatory, like, as predator. It's like it hunts you down like a T. Rex and eat you.

Ryan Does: 00:33:24

All I'm saying is John Hammond did not have to make theme park rides out of, you know, living predators, but he did it anyway. The last one, I will actually just jump on to what Joshua said.

Not only is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein incredible, the perspective, the perspective of the monster discovering what humanity is and what does it actually mean to be human? Do I get to count as a human? Even though I. I am a quote created being. But also, I highly recommend James Whale's original Frankenstein with Karloff.

Boris Karloff is a. Is a. A rabbit trail that I will gladly go down with anybody if you got the time. I. Karloff is kind of like a.

A little mental side project for me all the time, but the Bride of Frankenstein is. It's so good. Like, that's all I can say about that classic horror. And I know, I know, like, someone out there is, like, really?

You just gave a lot of the. The basic, you know, basic girl answers for sci fi. There's a reason why they're great, because they're great.

The reason why they're classics, because they're classics.

Leah Robinson: 00:34:34

Oh, the basic human response if I edit it ever so slightly.

Will Rose: 00:34:39

Right.

Leah Robinson: 00:34:41

Response.

TJ Blackwell: 00:34:43

Well, he wanted to say a different word.

Leah Robinson: 00:34:46

I know. Language matters.

Will Rose: 00:34:50

Language matters.

Leah Robinson: 00:34:52

I'm unmuted so I can go, this is an impossible question. So it'll just be, what's at the top of my head right now. Scream is my favorite all time horror.

Ryan Does: 00:35:01

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:35:01

The first original Scream and it sort of plays into the reasoning. Why I said at the beginning is that you had no idea as soon as Drew beer. They put Drew Barrymore's face straight on a huge. On that poster and we all.

I'm not even gonna say this is a spoiler. It's the 90s. Come on, y' all, catch up. She dies within like the first two seconds of that film.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:22

Like fantastic.

Leah Robinson: 00:35:24

Then that I realized with this franchise anything can happen and you never know who the bad guy is or people are or girly in some cases. So that would be number one for me. I do love that genre. I will say I love Jordan Peele and all that he does that I have seen. And I think get out is.

Was a wild ride. And if you've not seen, I don't even know how to spoil that movie. It's just a wild ride through and through. And us as well.

I would say Those are my 2 favorite of hits. So definitely that.

I also really, really love Doctor who as well, I will say and for sci fi purposes because it was really a thing that comforted me being an expat in the uk and also, much like Michael Fassbender, we can all take a moment of silence for David Tennant and everything that you're feeling is valid, as Ryan said.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:32

Yes, absolutely.

Leah Robinson: 00:36:33

He's an amazing human in always. I will leave it at that. Star Wars I was introduced to later. And of course that's, that's that.

And I would if we're talking about as Hassel and Haunted Hill is a good show. But I will say if you're into the horror world, dig into the works of Shirley Jackson.

She has a biography called A Haunted Life because her life she wrote the Haunting of Hill House. But also her life is. Is a sad, wild ride.

And it does kind of connect back to the theology of it is that she wrote from her experiences and what she thought was horrific. But you can totally tie it back to real life stuff that probably happened in her own life.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:18

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:18

All right.

Will Rose: 00:37:19

So yeah, yeah, I'll be fast. Like I, I combine sci fi and horror. Like if you're doing separate, there's different things. Like I love to get out. I love Sinners.

I love those, those horror movies.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:31

But.

Will Rose: 00:37:31

And of course Star wars sci fi. But if we're going to combine the two, then definitely Alien Predator franchise.

I also thought of like the Godzilla Kaiju, like horror kind of sci fi element.

This whole idea of like a monster emerging out of the sea to us that we're somewhat responsible of or for living on the beach and here in the ocean outside my window. As a kid, I would often have nightmares of like monsters come in the ocean before I even saw any Godzilla film.

I'll also add Event Horizon,: 1997

Right, which is basically a haunted house story except on a spaceship in outer space. And man, that. That movie messed with me big time. And then I love. I love the Terminator series. You know, the AI coming back, the robots taking over.

I at first Terminator when I was a kid watching to also mess with the head a little bit. So those are the ones I would lift up in the genre.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:32

All right, all right. I do get a turn. Josh gets turned.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:36

Right.

Will Rose: 00:38:36

So yeah, I'm gonna make.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:41

In no particular. No, I'm gonna do it in order. Fallout, Star Wars, Dune, Blame by Tsutomu Nihei. Great manga, beautiful manga. Horrifying mega structures.

If part of the sci fi you like is big, unbelievably huge cities and structures, that's the peak of what exists right now. And sunshine.

Leah Robinson: 00:39:05

Is it David Lynch, Dune or new Dune?

Ryan Does: 00:39:08

Both.

TJ Blackwell: 00:39:09

All Dune except Brian Herbert's son. That guy can't write. That guy cannot write at all.

Will Rose: 00:39:19

Nice call. Good pull.

TJ Blackwell: 00:39:22

Josh. Did you already go?

Joshua Noel: 00:39:24

Yeah, I already went.

TJ Blackwell: 00:39:25

I blacked out when that happened.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:28

I will say, because everybody else elaborated theirs. Oh, sorry.

Leah Robinson: 00:39:31

No, I'm sorry. I just want to add to. I do love David lynch, so Twin Peaks and everything David lynch does and genuine rap.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:39

Twin Peaks is so good.

Leah Robinson: 00:39:41

So good.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:42

No, I was going to say since everybody else elaborated on their song and I didn't really on mine. I will say part of why I love Invisible Kingdom with G. Willow Wilson goes back to that whole story bigger than myself.

It's like, what do you do with the other? That's a lot of what sci fi is. You're meeting these other alien races and what is human? What do you do with the other?

And Invisible Kingdom does this cool thing where you meet the other and it's like, hey, this species has seven different genders.

Or this species has this religious following and ask what do you do with the other when they're so different from you that it forces you to accept that the binary structures maybe you created for yourself just aren't real? And that's what's Such a powerful writing. Good comment.

Leah Robinson: 00:40:19

What was that movie about South Africa where the aliens came and they put them in, like.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:24

I don't know this one.

Leah Robinson: 00:40:25

They. You remember, they put them in these shacks and they separated them. And it was a real play on kind of what you're talking about, Josh.

It was a real play on, like, well, apartheid.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:34

District nine.

Will Rose: 00:40:36

District nine. That's it.

Ryan Does: 00:40:37

Nine.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:37

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 00:40:38

That's good.

Ryan Does: 00:40:39

And how you other.

Will Rose: 00:40:40

The other person, the alien, you know, really is the other, but then also, you know, do it with droids, robots, AI. I think that's a big part of the genre, too. How do other people. Yeah, that's. That's a big part of it. Nice.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:51

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:40:52

So what would we say is the point of the apocalyptic literature in the Bible, Leah?

Leah Robinson: 00:41:00

I mean, I do. I do think that it was meant as an agent of hope. I really do.

I think it's weird to hear that because it's called apocalyptic literature, but I do think they were. It was used as a literary device to encourage people that Kristen and I have talked about this on.

On the podcast, is that weirdly, we find comfort in things ending sometimes.

And I do think that both as revelation or even, Daniel, if you want to go to the Old Testament, like, there are these works that say, this is not all that there is.

And so any given day of the week, if you're having a tough day, you know, a lot of cult leaders have used it negatively, but a lot of people can look in that and think, oh, this isn't the end, you know, and again, people can use that in very damaging ways. But I really think that's the purpose, is it's weirdly a hope device, even though it's the end.

Will Rose: 00:42:00

Yeah, a hope device. I like that. But also, like the. The word apocalypse literally means to unve or to reveal. Right.

So when I talked about with my congregation that Covid this pandemic was apocalyptic, I wasn't talking about in the world. It was just revealing what was important to people.

Those who wanted to hold on to power, those who wanted to lean into science, those who want to take care of their communities, those who are scared of science. It was revealing of what was deeply inside them.

So I think this apocalyptic literature and scripture is revealing of the underlying reality and also the systems that are at play, whether oppressive or those who bring hope and salvation. So apocalyptic with the literal world meaning of that Greek word to reveal or unveiling these. These stories unveil for us what we're truly feeling.

How would we respond?

But but in scripture, you know, the, the underlining reality of what is holding these things together and what are the systems and powers that are trying to tear it down or co opt it.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:54

Yeah, I, I, I gotta go back to my thing earlier. You know, it's the same thing with horror sci fi. It's like we just conflate these stories too much. Daniel and Revelation have a really fun tie in to.

If you split Genesis up the way that I would like it to be split up that beginning, ending with the Tower of Babel, where humanity really fell apart from God. Like the story is basically God's like, okay, guys don't do this. And then they do it. It's like, alright, that's one. And then he goes two.

And there's like two and a half, two and three quarters. Like God keeps giving humanity a chance. And like Tower of Babel was like, that was it. We got so full of ourselves, we departed from God.

And the story of Daniel in Revelation is what Babylon finally falling. It's the story of the Tower of Babel coming to an end where our arrogance put into perspective of like.

And both of those are political stories of like, hey, we got so full of ourselves.

We have these narcissistic leaders like Donald Trump, I'm sorry, I mean, Nebuchadnezzar, who are, you know, causing people to be put into prisons in El Salvador. I mean, golden statues, all this golden statues, yeah, all this stuff, right.

And it's all about the arrogance of man and narcissism in politics and that's what the stories are about.

And then you also have apocalyptic literature in Isaiah where the leviathan gets slain, that stands for chaos and God's power is shown through apocalypse in these weird little like angel alien creatures. Because it's like, look how powerful God really is in your chaotic life. It's nothing to something that powerful.

Right, so like just like horror, just like sci fi. I think it depends what story are we talking about? And usually yeah, it's hope.

Is it hope because this political administration will one day in or is it hope because, hey, your life is chaotic, but God's more powerful than that? Either way, I do think hope is probably a solid answer and I think.

Leah Robinson: 00:44:36

Ryan brought that up with Jurassic park and Alien, which is another of my favorites. I don't. But is that the sort of arrogance that we had, which is really the central of those genres and how we keep, keep doing it?

As a historian, it kills me. It's like we, we and what does that say about humanity?

And I Think in many ways, apocalyptic literature is speaking to that and saying, we are going to keep doing this over and over and over again and maybe one day Jesus comes back or we die, you know, and, and I know that sounds really unhopeful, but there is a hope message underneath that because it is that this is. Yeah, we can fight against that. We can push back against that.

And you see that in some of these horror films is people say, this isn't actually the way that I want my life to be and we're going to stop the cycle. Should they blow up that Jurassic park island? Maybe.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:30

But you know, I think probably even.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:33

I'm saying is in August, when the tycoon Jurassic World Evolution 3 comes out and I can build my own Jurassic park and put people in danger, I'm going to do it. This can be great. Can't wait.

Will Rose: 00:45:44

Actually put yourself in that story, Joshua. So, Josh, that's why you have the.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:49

Money to do the same thing in real life?

Joshua Noel: 00:45:51

Oh, absolutely not.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:52

That's terrible.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:52

Waste of money, surely.

TJ Blackwell: 00:45:54

I'm sure you believe that.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:55

Yeah. So one thing our sci fi and horror fans and our eschatological.

Whatever scholars have in common is this tendency to argue and create factions among the different theories. You know, like, are you a prequel guy or sequel guy? And then it's like, are you pre millennial or you're amillennial? Whatever.

And it's crazy because eschatology is like the source of a ton of church disputes, and yet it does sound a lot like our nerd fights. And bad eschatology is one of the leading causes for spiritual trauma.

So it's kind of funny when you see the comparison, but it's also like, oh, yeah, this is still really serious, right.

Ryan, do you think there's anything the church might be able to learn about unity from looking at our sci fi and horror communities and how we disagree, because, like, there's definitely some fandoms that do this better than others, I think.

Ryan Does: 00:46:42

Well, I also, I. With that, I think it matters one, what fans are taught, what kind of fans you're talking to and what kind of church people you're talking to.

Because sometimes, like original. Sometimes if we're talking about Star wars, for example, original trilogy people, they can be ravid.

Like, they're like, they're the nerd equivalent of the get off my lawn people. And when you're. But, but like I, you know, Will Rose is a great example of this. Like, definitely an original trilogy guy.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:14

Oh, yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:47:14

But has found joy in other parts of the Star wars universe. That's more like where I've landed. Because I'll be honest, guys, I don't, I don't got time in my life to argue about fictional space people.

Yeah, but I think that's. But with theology, for some reason we think it's so categorically different.

And it's like, I don't know if it really is, like, so eschatology was always one of those things where, especially in Bible college, I went to a really hard line conservative Baptist Bible college. And it was like, hey, if you get your eschatology wrong, basically, you know, enjoy hell, you pagan, you know, non believer.

How did we let you in for this long? There are the disagreements. I don't know, I just feel like the details are negligible. That's probably bad for like a lot.

Like, probably more conservatively minded people be like, well, no, they're like, they're important topics. I'm like, are they though? We've been arguing about them for so long.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if they are important, I feel like I hear Jesus calling to us.

Like, for those who disagree well on the little things will be given bigger things to disagree. If we can disagree well on Star wars, maybe we can move our way up.

Ryan Does: 00:48:34

You know what? That's probably true. Also, your Jesus voice sounds an awful lot like our mutual mentor, Will Rose.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:45

Well, they do have a lot.

Ryan Does: 00:48:46

Guys, guys.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:48

Well, okay, so add another observation.

I'd like to pick your brain out just for a second, because when I think of the fandoms that do this well, and of course I'm biased, but maybe as a Thor fan, you might see something similar. Like as a Kingdom Hearts fan, there's not a lot of dispute.

It's just like, you see someone and they like, even if they like a game that you think is like the dumbest one in the series, you're like, oh my God, someone else knows what I'm talking about. This is awesome.

Whereas, like the bigger fandoms, it's like, it's like, I don't know, you feel like you're mainstream enough that you have the room to disagree. And like, I think the same thing's true with the church, though.

Like when you see like the church is like smaller in those areas, like, can you read about it? They don't have those arguments. But now, like, we're the big guys, so now we have to argue about all these minor little details.

Ryan Does: 00:49:32

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:34

Spoiled by selection.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:35

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:49:37

Oh my. Yeah. I mean, I think with. Well, for example, you know, maybe this is Maybe this is in the spirit of your question, Joshua.

Like nerd culture is pop culture now, like science fiction and horror is pop culture.

It's gone from being a corner case, curiosity of the, you know, of the pop culture, you know, world to, you know, superhero movies historically just bring home bank at the box office. People build whole careers out of characters they play, all of that. So I think there's a. Interesting shift from being both being a.

This may be an inappropriate way to say this, but a. If you're a nerd, you know, in. In, you know, the pre.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:28

Let's say.

Ryan Does: 00:50:28

Let's say pre 80s.

If you're a nerd in the pre 80s era, you are essentially a persecuted minority in the world of pop culture because you're the oddity, you're the curiosity.

Similar to, you know, prior to the Moral majority gaining political, organizational, systemic power in the church world, a lot of more conservative thinking going mainstream through things like Focus on the Family, Billy Graham.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:56

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:50:56

All of those cultural shiftings, you have a somewhat quieter voiced, maybe a less represented minority going from being that corner case to now being in a position of power aligning itself with, let's just say, certain political parties. Wink, wink. We all know what I'm talking about.

Joshua Noel: 00:51:20

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:51:22

And now you see what a bullied. What the bullied now do when they've got the power and they can pull the strings.

I think there's a lot of different comparisons you could do between sci fi and horror nerd culture with current Christian, you know, kind of mainstream culture. Is that. Is that in the spirit of your question, Joshua?

Joshua Noel: 00:51:43

That's exactly. Kind of just. My brain was just kind of roaming in that general direction. See, where your brain went?

You know, we just went on a little journey together.

Ryan Does: 00:51:52

Us together is definitely. I think roaming is probably the most accurate word that could be and the kindest for our brains, I think.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:01

I don't think there's a stronger version of the word to use.

Will Rose: 00:52:05

So.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:06

Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Ryan Does: 00:52:10

Not. It's. It's the. It's the. Nick. Nick. Nick Polk will be happy at this. You know, not all who wander are lost, but sometimes you're just freaking lost.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:18

Like.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:18

Yeah, sometimes.

Leah Robinson: 00:52:23

Man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:24

That's true, by the way.

Ryan Does: 00:52:25

Oh, God.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:26

But you. I don't know. I feel like it's kind of. There is virulence in the fandoms if you dig deep enough. Always. Always.

Ryan Does: 00:52:34

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:34

But at the end of the day, you know, you can reconcile that fact because they're still fans of the same properties.

Ryan Does: 00:52:41

Yeah. I mean, if you have a healthy adult mindset towards your fandoms, you should always be able to come back to the core common denominator of.

We both derive joy from this property, this ip, this character, this, you know, whatever. I mean, even Joshua mentioned, you know, if this happens in the world of Thor, like, I am by no means a Thor expert.

I prefer to say I'm a Thor enthusiast. And that's really how I am with comics too, as a whole, as a, as a medium.

Within the world of even Thor comics, there are like, he is a, he is a white blonde haired Viking warrior. Believe it or not, guys, there are some other dudes on the Internet that reinterpret Thor a different way.

We've had, we've actually had people send us dms, like, hey, I just want to know what I'm getting into here. Like, what are you guys about? Like, we're like, hey, dude, you're, you're safe here. We're not those guys.

So, like, even within our, even within our niche of a character, there is a niche. Like, it's, it's crazy how far the, the maze goes, but we're just trying to be a positive influence on anybody that listens.

And I think, I think we've done a good job. I think you guys do a good job.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:07

Yeah, I sometimes I enjoy listening to across the Bifrost and hearing about comics that I usually don't read. I have limited time. So if it's like, there's not no Captain America, I'm like, do I want to?

Ryan Does: 00:54:20

Which, by the way, Josh, there's a, there's a brand new Captain America run launch in this summer. You need to get on board with that.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:26

Yeah, man, that was so cool. Well, so also to kind of go back a little bit.

I also wonder how much age has to do with it because, like, the age of a fandom, if you will, because once we've had Star wars for so long, I will admit people who are like, I only like the sequel trilogy. I do have a hard time being like, that's the same thing as a Star wars fan. You know, it's like you're a sequel Star wars fan.

That's not exactly the same thing.

TJ Blackwell: 00:54:53

That's why I said usually earlier.

Joshua Noel: 00:54:55

Yeah, well, I think it is, though, because, like, when you sit with something so long and then something new comes out and it kind of like undermines that, you're like, do I? Is that the same thing? And I feel like a lot of Christians are doing the same thing now, and we've always done that. We're like, these are our things.

This is what we believe. And then someone's like, what if we were wrong about homosexuality or, you know, same sex marriage? And people like, that's not Christianity.

That's new. I feel like, you know, I feel like we do the same thing a little bit, you know.

Will Rose: 00:55:21

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:55:22

I wonder if the, I wonder if the abolitionists and the Anabaptists fighting for slavery to be abolished would say the same thing.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:32

Yeah, yeah. They were like, jane Foster can't be Thor. Like, chill, dude.

Ryan Does: 00:55:35

Oh, those, those guys, Josh. Those, those are unwashed basement folk.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:40

Yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:55:41

And I don't, I don't associate well.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:43

Ryan just called Anabaptist unwashed basement folk in my mind. So.

Ryan Does: 00:55:50

Before I. Before the, before the peace tradition, Anabaptists come after me on the Internet, I would just like to say I.

There's the church that I've been attending somewhat regularly with Kim and our kids and my parents go. There is a Mennonite community of mostly like 70 people in their 70s and 80s and they might be the most peace loving people I've ever met.

We're celebrating the history of Anabaptism this year.

And that honestly, it is incredible to learn about like parts of the church's history that I did not know about and I definitely wasn't taught at my conservative Baptist college.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:31

Yeah, that is pretty cool.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:34

But if you wanted to maybe hear some more of that, maybe pick his brain a little bit, then there's one really easy way to do that. But there's one really cool way to do that, and that's going to be theology Beer camp.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:44

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Does: 00:56:45

You bet your bottom dollar.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:47

So, Leah, what practical lessons can we learn from all of these stories? And I need specific examples from every franchise that has been mentioned.

Leah Robinson: 00:56:58

You brought me on here and gave me a time limit, which was really your first mistake.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:02

No, but really, I mean, biblical ones.

Leah Robinson: 00:57:04

Well, don't go to Camp Crystal Lake. That's a very practical one.

Will Rose: 00:57:09

Anything named Crystal or Lake, don't go.

Leah Robinson: 00:57:11

I was going to say stay away from Elm street if at all possible. That's actually a pretty easy. Those are two easy ones to avoid, you know, disaster. Practically speaking. What can we take from horror films?

I mean, when I watch the ones that I speak of that I love the most, it really is this idea that the people in the story, who you're. You're rooting for, are rising above their circumstance. And I think there is something inherently attractive to me about that.

And I know we can go in the background, although you all know it at this stage about growing up where I did and how I did.

But I do think whether it's coming together to fight a common enemy, which is a very common thing in sci fi as well, or simply rising above, you know, all of this stuff that's created a world that is inherently selfish or terrible. Those are the ones that I really like, are freeing off or getting oppression out the window or whatever.

So anyway, next time bring me on and go for two hours and it'll be fine.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:18

Yeah. For those who are wondering, we asked her because she is a practical theologian who writes books about practical theology.

Leah Robinson: 00:58:25

I will say I do have books out about that and I'm, I, I'm current, I've just published one on Covid and how we reacted in Covet. And so Covet in itself was a.

Will Rose: 00:58:33

Little bit of a lived in horror.

Leah Robinson: 00:58:35

Right. I lived in horror film in itself. And how we reacted, honestly, is kind of what the book is about is. And Will quite rightly has messaged me about.

Let's write one that's like about what the good guys did.

Will Rose: 00:58:49

I got some good stories, I got some good news stories.

Leah Robinson: 00:58:52

This is the horror book. It's about the bad stories.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:56

We'll write the sci fi version. Right.

Leah Robinson: 00:58:59

But I think, you know, it is. People are super able to rise above the stuff that's happening around them. And I think, I think horror films really show that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:59:10

So if you're listening, don't forget to check out Theology Beer Camp. We would love to see you there. Also, Leah, where can we find your new book?

Leah Robinson: 00:59:20

So you can find my new book, Bad Theology and Covid's Palgrave McMillan. Send me a message. Bad Theology in a Time of Oppression in the Name of God is on SCM Press and also Amazon and you're good to go there.

I have a new book coming out called. Well, I don't have a title but it'll be sexy and Bad Theology will be in it. And it's about conversion therapy.

It's with Bloomsbury Press and so I'm doing a lot of ethnographical stuff with people who survived conversion therapy.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:49

Yeah, so a lot about that one. Do you know about like the release date frame? Is there like a.

Leah Robinson: 00:59:55

For the conversion therapy book? Yeah, yeah. So it's due next September. She says as she slowly falls before.

Will Rose: 01:00:02

Yeah.

Leah Robinson: 01:00:02

And probably it tends to be about four months after when it's all said and done well with the, the good. I mean, I don't want to like brag, but if you're doing it with an academic publisher. They. They know what they're doing. They've got.

They've got their stuff. Right.

Will Rose: 01:00:18

Early 20, 26 is what I'm hearing.

Leah Robinson: 01:00:20

There you go. Yeah, do the math for me because I should.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:23

Well, we need to have you back on to talk about that when the date comes closer too.

Leah Robinson: 01:00:27

That would be great. Love you guys.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:28

Yeah.

Will Rose: 01:00:29

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:30

So one thing we.

We always do, because I forgot it was my part, we do like to ask everybody for practical application, kind of more of like around church unity specifically, like, what is something our listeners could stop and do right now that would help better engender unity in the church? That's how I'm supposed to word this question. Yeah. Do you have any ideas of, like, what's something people could stop and do right now?

Will Rose: 01:00:51

I think for me personally, I think to see. See you as being a part of a story, not only just your own story, but a part of other people's story too. You have an effect on other people.

So if I meet somebody new, I'm already impacting their story, have an influence on them and them on me. So to see us as players and characters in each other's stories.

So whether it's in the scripture or whether it's in the stories that we like to go to, the movie, movies, the big screen or stream on our TVs, they're all there to help us process our own story. And so I think we see ourselves as each other, as each other in our own stories. I think that can make an impact.

And I don't want to be the villain in my story. I don't want to be the villain in somebody else's story. How can I help them thrive in their own story?

I think is something to always keep in mind when you're interacting with other people and communities.

Joshua Noel: 01:01:40

So write a story about someone you met.

TJ Blackwell: 01:01:42

Yeah. So what changes in the world around us if everyone just. What does that man.

Will Rose: 01:01:48

I think, I think just the whole. I don't want to be the bad guy in somebody else's story. I really don't. If I made somebody mad today, there's. Listen to this or.

Yeah, you misinterpret something I said. I'm really sorry. I don't want to be the bad guy in your story. I really don't.

TJ Blackwell: 01:02:05

We all just want to be liked by everybody, really.

Leah Robinson: 01:02:09

I think realistically were all at some point the bad guy in somebody's story.

Will Rose: 01:02:13

So yeah, it's true.

Leah Robinson: 01:02:14

So.

Will Rose: 01:02:15

Right.

TJ Blackwell: 01:02:16

I'm really good at it.

Leah Robinson: 01:02:18

I Think. Do you want me to go or.

Joshua Noel: 01:02:20

Yes, please.

Leah Robinson: 01:02:22

So I.

For me, I think it's making people within the church, and not even within the church, actually everyone in your, your sphere feel good about the things that they do well. And I. And I. That sounds really simple, but.

But as someone who felt quite ostracized by the church at different points in my life, I think it's really important to see what people are trying to bring to you again in friendship, relationships, church life, and to really encourage that if it's coming from a place, you know, someone wants to read a scripture or someone wants to go on a hike with you, or someone wants to, you know, whatever it may be, it's is. Is seeing people and where they're coming from. And this is really coming from me dating an introvert. It's such a different world I just came into.

This is clearly coming across. I come into the world guns a blazing and I'm just like firing it all can, you know, whatever.

And I'm like, if you're my friend, you're my friend and all of you are my friends. And actually dating a geeky introvert has really helped me see that.

Sometimes you have to see the quiet ones in the corner and know that they also have a whole lot that's going on. You just, you just got to find their thing.

And so I think with the church especially, I think we neglect that because we get really in a cycle of just keeping the wheels rolling and we don't see people's individuals.

Joshua Noel: 01:03:42

I want to say read Sci Fi.

I genuinely think if more people in the church read Sci Fi, we'd have better church unity because it makes you think of the other in situations like you just can't deny their existence. Like, that's part of the whole point of the story.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:55

Story.

Will Rose: 01:03:56

I agree with that. Agree with that.

TJ Blackwell: 01:03:58

So nice. Before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moment.

And we'll just take a moment to share where everyone saw God recently, whether it be a mode of worship or a challenge or a blessing or curse or whatever it is that God has put in front of you recently. I always make Joshua go first. So, Joshua, do you have a God moment for us this week?

Joshua Noel: 01:04:19

Yeah, we'll go. Sweet, simple, easy. There are several moments all combined where I'm just spending more time on my porch.

Yeah, that's really cool to read a little bit earlier today and drink some orange aid. And the other day me and my wife played a card game sitting on the porch outside.

And you Know, just those little moments of, like, hey, I can be outside and appreciate Life.

Will Rose: 01:04:38

You play Blackjack 21?

Joshua Noel: 01:04:40

No, actually, it was a. It was a Star wars card game. Oh, it's crazy.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:44

Sabaccar.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:45

Yeah, it was like a word game. Like, you had to, like, guess what the word was based on a bunch of random little images on there.

Will Rose: 01:04:51

Fun.

Joshua Noel: 01:04:52

Yeah, that is fun.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:53

So I'll go next. Mine. It was recently Father's Day.

I don't know when this episode comes out, but if you're listening to it now, you know, when we recorded it and I worked on Father's Day, and I just thought it was, you know, when I was there, it was interesting to notice that none of the mothers worked on Mother's Day, but all the fathers worked on Father's Day. I don't know what's up with that. But then it really was like we were expecting it to be slow, and it wasn't.

And there were just so many people who wanted to bring their dad to Chipotle on Father's Day. And at first I was really annoyed. It was supposed to be an easy day.

Joshua Noel: 01:05:31

I did have a very slow day.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:34

That's so good for you. But then it was just. It was nice to, you know, be part of everyone's great Father's Day.

Joshua Noel: 01:05:43

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:43

Because that's really the part that I like about my job, specifically Father's Day. I wait a very long time to get satisfaction.

Leah Robinson: 01:05:50

Nah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:51

But it was really awesome to, you know, help a lot of people have a good Father's Day. A way that I would never would have figured would be a good Father's Day. So, Will, do you have a God moment for us?

Joshua Noel: 01:06:03

Yeah, I.

Will Rose: 01:06:04

Not too long ago. I don't know when this. This is gonna come out, but I.

I was able to make a trip to Hawaii, and I was actually in the ranch in the place where they filmed some Jurassic park and Jurassic World stuff. So it was pretty cool to see that valley and ranch. And you know that. That is that tree. That tree where they hide behind and that. Like the. The.

All the dinosaurs run and jump over that. I saw the actual little tree where that was. I got our picture next to it, so that was pretty cool. So call back to Drastic Park World movies.

And in this episode, I was able to see the spot where they filmed some of it. And that was pretty fun. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. We took my mom and.

And who has dementia, and she doesn't remember the whole whole thing, but she remembers parts of it. And while we were in that ranch, she it brought her to tears many times being there because how beautiful it was and made it all worth it. God moment.

TJ Blackwell: 01:06:52

Yeah, that is beautiful. All right, Leah, take us home. Do you have a God moment?

Leah Robinson: 01:06:57

Yeah. So, tj, mine's kind of related to yours, actually. It really is. And I will say, gender roles can work for us and against us.

Reply, your Father's Day working. And certainly it can be reverse misogyny in many ways, but. So I have started working at a bar down the road on Saturdays.

Joshua Noel: 01:07:21

Nice.

Leah Robinson: 01:07:22

And I will say I don't need to, but I've started doing it, and it's the most fun. It's how I knew I was like, that's pernicious. Well, I know what that is. It's a whole other thing. And I would totally recommend it because we can get.

I'm teaching still. I'm preaching. I'm this. This fancy academic. I write books, but we forget a lot, I think. And so, my God moment is from the bar is just.

There was one moment where I had a crowd. Not a crowd, but, like, five or six people who I was just chatting to. And honestly, it's the most ministry I've ever.

I've not ever done, but I've done in a long while.

Joshua Noel: 01:08:01

Talks about the same thing.

TJ Blackwell: 01:08:02

I think five or six is a small crowd. I think that counts.

Leah Robinson: 01:08:05

Yeah. Like, it was. It was great.

And we were talking, like, the one guy was telling me about going back to school, and another guy was, you know, talking to me about Georgia football. And then, you know, someone else was talking to me about what I teach.

And I think it was just this thing of, like, it probably was like a little mini beer camp, if you want to segue into that. It's like, you know, people are always like, go, touch grass. Yeah, it was my go touch grass moment, and it was great.

Will Rose: 01:08:34

Dude, I want to go to Leah's cantina. I will go to that cantina close.

Joshua Noel: 01:08:38

Enough that I could probably.

Will Rose: 01:08:40

Yeah, please let us know where it is. I just want to crash it on Saturday night. I'll take a road trip.

Leah Robinson: 01:08:44

Not a company store. It's a. It's an old mill house in North Charlotte.

Joshua Noel: 01:08:49

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just gonna put the link down in the show notes for all of Leah's books. So if you guys want to follow Dr.

Leah Robinson, because I feel like I was too casual and excited to get into the fun bits earlier, but.

Leah Robinson: 01:09:03

I wasn't offended at all. Josh, don't worry. Or you can come drink with me at the bar, too.

Will Rose: 01:09:08

I might do a house blessing at Joshua's house. And then we're gonna go to your true good plan. Perfect. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do.

TJ Blackwell: 01:09:14

So if you like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with an enemy. Share with your cousins. Share with your cousins.

Joshua Noel: 01:09:20

Especially your cousins.

TJ Blackwell: 01:09:20

Especially your cousins. Rate and view the show on podchaser or Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you're listening. It really helps out a lot. Manipulate the algorithm.

We love manipulation.

Joshua Noel: 01:09:31

That's true. That's what my pastor's talking about. Official stands specifically. Hey, also check out other shows in onazole Podcast Network.

This can be cross posted to Systematic Ecology. Will, myself and TJ are all part of that show as well. So that's a lot of fun. Listen to the homily if you want to hear more of Will.

Or be living water if you want to hear more of me. Those rare times I remember to do it.

TJ Blackwell: 01:09:55

We hope you enjoyed it.

Next week we'll be talking with Beth Allison Barr about her most recent book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife, how marriage replaced ordination as a woman's path to ministry, and how the idea of unity has been used to silence many female voices from speaking up in the church.

Then we will be speaking with Josh Patterson about some backlash he received about a podcast he shared in a Christian group and how we hope our own group, Smiles might handle similar situations better. After that, we'll be speaking with Jonathan macnie, an Anglican autism researcher, about his work with faith and those on the spectrum.

Finally, at the end of season one, Francis Chan will be on the show. No one has started the edition yet.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:33

He might never know about it. I'll be surprised. Even to him, he'll be like, five.

Will Rose: 01:10:38

Years later, Five years later, you're still in season one. That's what I love.

Joshua Noel: 01:10:41

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It going strong, going strong.

Will Rose: 01:10:45

Season one.